How is it Possible for the Unsullied to be Good Warriors?

[White Walker King]

I don't know if this is an issue that has been addressed before. Having been castrated, the lack of testosterone should make it very difficult for them to build muscle. There are no testosterone injections in the world of Westeros like in modern world! Is there some kind of explanation for this, because every time I'm reminded that one of the best armies in existence is made up of castrated men, it feels oxymoronic and it bothers me. 

[snow is the man]

in the books this is adressed. The unsullied are not the strongest or the fastest but they are the most disciplined. And as such they don't break and run unless they are told too. Considering that most battles are won when one side retreats or surrenders this is a big deal. They hold formation perfectly and fight as one. This is similar to how rome fought. The romans weren't the strongest or the fastest every time but the barbarians they fought against lacked discipline and it was how rome really beat them.

In the books and in the show stannis beats the wildlings so badly and with so little casulties because the wildlings have no discipline where as stannis's forces do. Also stannis's forces had better armor and better weapons.  Also while being castrated may make them weaker they still have incredible endurance and other skills and just because they have been cut it doesn't mean they are weaklings.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I think it was adressed in the wikia. It won't make sense IRL, but it's rather a plot device.

[Walda]

In real life, the lack of testosterone means that castrati kept growing up, rather than out. (The ends of their bones did not seal up in the normal way) Their rib cages also grew larger than normal. This meant, with proper training, they could build bigger lungs for more powerful voices.

Such a long, relatively light body type is better for endurance sports and marathon running than one weighted down with fast-twitch muscle fibres (ie. the type of muscle fibre that increases it's size in the presence of testosterone).

 Big muscles are not the only thing that gives a strength advantage. Long limbs give a strength advantage  too (lever action - the longer the lever, the less force required to achieve the same amount of work.) Also, the longer the limb, the more muscle there has to be on it, and even if it is not the best kind of muscle for power lifting, more muscle is more muscle.

Bigger lungs also means a higher VO₂max, which is especially good news for slow-twitch muscle, because it is the sort of muscle that converts oxygen into energy on the fly (the reason the other type of muscle is hypertrophic is because it has to store energy, in the form of glycogen, in the actual muscle. When the glycogen is used up, the strength of the muscle fades, and then it has to rest and get some more glycogen from the bloodstream to power up again.) The type of muscle that the unsullied have most of, will keep on going as long as it is getting a good supply of oxygen from the lungs. It isn't as prone to lactic acid build-up as the body-builder type muscles, too, so while they might not be as fast or as strong in the short-term, they won't tire or slow down like a warrior with a larger muscle mass. 

Another thing that is important here is that they are soldiers. They are not operating one on one, in weight-classed, bare-knuckle fights. They are operating as battalions, with arms, with specialist training. They are highly skilled, and famous for their discipline, above all.

Bear in mind that, in the Napoleonic wars, for every soldier that died in action, there were 7 dying of illness or infection (mostly from lack of hygiene and poor diet), and two dying of ship wrecks and floggings and alcoholic revelries and exploding cannons and what have you.

Some of those things were not things that a soldier could prevent, but an incredible number of them were unbelievably stupid preventable deaths (I've done research into some ships in the British Navy at the time. You would think that in a workplace where people had to climb rigging on the high seas in gales to let the sails up and down, or use naked flame and gun powder routinely, and stored about a ton of gunpowder to do so, and where all the hauling was done by men pulling on a capstan, that these terrible occupational injury hazards would produce terrible occupational injuries. And they did. Just not as many, and not as terrible as the ones the men inflicted on themselves when they were not on duty. Things like 'fell down the steps while drunk, hitting head on low beam, taking top of skull off and leaving brain exposed', or 'fell into fire while toasting cheese', or 'drank hot tar on a wager'. I suspect that the regulation tot of rum didn't help the men in this respect, nor the more liberal allowances of various alcohol help the officers. The men who had less to do and more time off really did seem in greater danger of themselves than the ones who had more time on duty and less opportunity to drink. ) 

Anyhow, the unsullied appear to spend most of their time on duty, training. Their Lady of Spears seems to mandate they bathe regularly. It's all good. Unlike many of their foes, they are not caught napping, unprepared on their time off, or too drunk to fight. Unlike many forces, they have a clear chain of command, a single commander. Dany is a young girl who knows little of the ways of war, but she defers to Grey Worm, who does.

I'm not sure how good a fit her Dothraki horde, with their huge muscles, and horses with even huger muscles, are going to be. They are not famed for their discipline, their greatest leader was downed by a trivial wound and poor hygiene.

It doesn't matter how great her army is, if Dany insists that it must do pointless stupid things. But I bet Jon Snow, who seems to be the series' best living battle commander, would rather have Dany's unsullied at his back than his stabby black brothers, or his extremely loose Thenn and Thenn-hating wildling allies.

And that remind me of another advantage the unsullied have: being an army that doesn't generally have sex with the enemy means being an army that doesn't get riddled with syphilis and other devastating incurable STD's (not to mention other diseases that are not strictly STD's but spread quickly with close contact eg. strains of the flu for which they have no immunity) that leave men unfit to fight. (In the Napoleonic wars, one reason camp-followers were, well, semi-accommodated and tolerated by some armies, is because they correctly believed their troops would be less exposed to STD's if they slept with the ones they brought with them, rather than catching new strains of STD's from the locals.) Although visiting a prostitute did for White Rat, the unsullied in general are going to have fewer endlessly superating wounds, and troops not on duty due to septic arthritis or fever. And the Dothraki, with their slave-taking rape-based culture are at higher risk. No antibiotics in those days.

ETA: The thing that is really unrealistic are their deep voices. I think that Jacob Anderson should breath helium before he says his lines.

Also, anyone notice how much the lumps and bumps on the white walkers resemble tertiary syphilis? No-one suspects the quiet ones, I guess.

[White Walker King]

5 hours ago, Walda said:

Another thing that is important here is that they are soldiers. They are not operating one on one, in weight-classed, bare-knuckle fights. They are operating as battalions, with arms, with specialist training. They are highly skilled, and famous for their discipline, above all.

Grey Worm fought off a large group of Sons of the Harpy by himself. 

17 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I think it was adressed in the wikia. It won't make sense IRL, but it's rather a plot device.

I looked in the wikia and I didn't find anything new, except that they are given a beverage that makes them immune to pain over time.

I still just don't see why you would go to the effort of making super disciplined soldiers, that have no empathy and feel no pain, but give them a huge handicap like this. Remember that they are castrated at the age of 5, so they don't get the natural increase of muscle that comes with puberty. Sure they won't have sex and get STDs but is it really worth it? Their high discipline should still keep their sex drive mostly in check.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

16 minutes ago, White Walker King said:

snip

Probably it wasn't wikia, but some other fan website. 

As I said, unsullied don't make any sense IRL. I think they are portrayed this way as a contrast to the wild Dohtraki.

[Error-504]

1 hour ago, White Walker King said:

Grey Worm fought off a large group of Sons of the Harpy by himself. 

I looked in the wikia and I didn't find anything new, except that they are given a beverage that makes them immune to pain over time.

I still just don't see why you would go to the effort of making super disciplined soldiers, that have no empathy and feel no pain, but give them a huge handicap like this. Remember that they are castrated at the age of 5, so they don't get the natural increase of muscle that comes with puberty. Sure they won't have sex and get STDs but is it really worth it? Their high discipline should still keep their sex drive mostly in check.

Your grossly over estimating the effects or lack there-of of testosterone, and muscle development. Male horses are routinely castrated (geldings) for race purposes, and they still win. I have seen some pretty formidable male dogs in my day that had been neutered as well.. 

[snow is the man]

6 hours ago, White Walker King said:

Grey Worm fought off a large group of Sons of the Harpy by himself. 

I looked in the wikia and I didn't find anything new, except that they are given a beverage that makes them immune to pain over time.

I still just don't see why you would go to the effort of making super disciplined soldiers, that have no empathy and feel no pain, but give them a huge handicap like this. Remember that they are castrated at the age of 5, so they don't get the natural increase of muscle that comes with puberty. Sure they won't have sex and get STDs but is it really worth it? Their high discipline should still keep their sex drive mostly in check.

grey worm is supposed to be the best of the best. I can't remember her name but there was a women in japan a long time ago who was made into a great warrior and she was small. She used a naginata and could kickass even against legendary swordsman of the time. The unsullied are extremly well trained to fight so that plays a big part.  Also they are castrated so they are easier to deal with. High levels of hormones generally lead to people doing stupid things and being agressive or having some other problems. Look at boys and girls going through puberty they are moody and constantly want to rebel.  Also it is done so they cannot be bribed or turned by a women. In the books the slaver tells her that they will never betray their master and because of that weird drink they drink they are impervious to pain. This means that no matter what torture they are put through they will never talk where as anyone else would after they went through enough pain. 

 

Also greyworm was fighting people with no training,no armor,and most had knives. Still he should not have been able to do that. The show made a mistake with the unsullied and their weapons. The unsullied are supposed to be masters with a shortsword yet they carry spears into small rooms which make them all but useless. The unsullied got hit so hard in mereen because they were not trained to fight in a city and the show refused to let them use a weapon that was more apropriate for the location and surrounding. basically greyworm was able to do that the same way jon snow was able to survive a cavalry charge

[snow is the man]

13 hours ago, Walda said:

In real life, the lack of testosterone means that castrati kept growing up, rather than out. (The ends of their bones did not seal up in the normal way) Their rib cages also grew larger than normal. This meant, with proper training, they could build bigger lungs for more powerful voices.

Such a long, relatively light body type is better for endurance sports and marathon running than one weighted down with fast-twitch muscle fibres (ie. the type of muscle fibre that increases it's size in the presence of testosterone).

 Big muscles are not the only thing that gives a strength advantage. Long limbs give a strength advantage  too (lever action - the longer the lever, the less force required to achieve the same amount of work.) Also, the longer the limb, the more muscle there has to be on it, and even if it is not the best kind of muscle for power lifting, more muscle is more muscle.

Bigger lungs also means a higher VO₂max, which is especially good news for slow-twitch muscle, because it is the sort of muscle that converts oxygen into energy on the fly (the reason the other type of muscle is hypertrophic is because it has to store energy, in the form of glycogen, in the actual muscle. When the glycogen is used up, the strength of the muscle fades, and then it has to rest and get some more glycogen from the bloodstream to power up again.) The type of muscle that the unsullied have most of, will keep on going as long as it is getting a good supply of oxygen from the lungs. It isn't as prone to lactic acid build-up as the body-builder type muscles, too, so while they might not be as fast or as strong in the short-term, they won't tire or slow down like a warrior with a larger muscle mass. 

Another thing that is important here is that they are soldiers. They are not operating one on one, in weight-classed, bare-knuckle fights. They are operating as battalions, with arms, with specialist training. They are highly skilled, and famous for their discipline, above all.

Bear in mind that, in the Napoleonic wars, for every soldier that died in action, there were 7 dying of illness or infection (mostly from lack of hygiene and poor diet), and two dying of ship wrecks and floggings and alcoholic revelries and exploding cannons and what have you.

Some of those things were not things that a soldier could prevent, but an incredible number of them were unbelievably stupid preventable deaths (I've done research into some ships in the British Navy at the time. You would think that in a workplace where people had to climb rigging on the high seas in gales to let the sails up and down, or use naked flame and gun powder routinely, and stored about a ton of gunpowder to do so, and where all the hauling was done by men pulling on a capstan, that these terrible occupational injury hazards would produce terrible occupational injuries. And they did. Just not as many, and not as terrible as the ones the men inflicted on themselves when they were not on duty. Things like 'fell down the steps while drunk, hitting head on low beam, taking top of skull off and leaving brain exposed', or 'fell into fire while toasting cheese', or 'drank hot tar on a wager'. I suspect that the regulation tot of rum didn't help the men in this respect, nor the more liberal allowances of various alcohol help the officers. The men who had less to do and more time off really did seem in greater danger of themselves than the ones who had more time on duty and less opportunity to drink. ) 

Anyhow, the unsullied appear to spend most of their time on duty, training. Their Lady of Spears seems to mandate they bathe regularly. It's all good. Unlike many of their foes, they are not caught napping, unprepared on their time off, or too drunk to fight. Unlike many forces, they have a clear chain of command, a single commander. Dany is a young girl who knows little of the ways of war, but she defers to Grey Worm, who does.

I'm not sure how good a fit her Dothraki horde, with their huge muscles, and horses with even huger muscles, are going to be. They are not famed for their discipline, their greatest leader was downed by a trivial wound and poor hygiene.

It doesn't matter how great her army is, if Dany insists that it must do pointless stupid things. But I bet Jon Snow, who seems to be the series' best living battle commander, would rather have Dany's unsullied at his back than his stabby black brothers, or his extremely loose Thenn and Thenn-hating wildling allies.

And that remind me of another advantage the unsullied have: being an army that doesn't generally have sex with the enemy means being an army that doesn't get riddled with syphilis and other devastating incurable STD's (not to mention other diseases that are not strictly STD's but spread quickly with close contact eg. strains of the flu for which they have no immunity) that leave men unfit to fight. (In the Napoleonic wars, one reason camp-followers were, well, semi-accommodated and tolerated by some armies, is because they correctly believed their troops would be less exposed to STD's if they slept with the ones they brought with them, rather than catching new strains of STD's from the locals.) Although visiting a prostitute did for White Rat, the unsullied in general are going to have fewer endlessly superating wounds, and troops not on duty due to septic arthritis or fever. And the Dothraki, with their slave-taking rape-based culture are at higher risk. No antibiotics in those days.

ETA: The thing that is really unrealistic are their deep voices. I think that Jacob Anderson should breath helium before he says his lines.

Also, anyone notice how much the lumps and bumps on the white walkers resemble tertiary syphilis? No-one suspects the quiet ones, I guess.

yeah their voices are wrong but if they all had extremly high pitched voices like they should it would be hard to take them seriously. 

Also I like your point about khal drogo. He was supposedly some legendary warrior yet he was beaten by a tiny cut.

[White Walker King]

11 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Your grossly over estimating the effects or lack there-of of testosterone, and muscle development. Male horses are routinely castrated (geldings) for race purposes, and they still win. I have seen some pretty formidable male dogs in my day that had been neutered as well.. 

You're saying they can win races. There is a difference between the type of muscles required for endurance and for strength. Walda already pointed out that castrati are better suited to endurance sports.

Maybe what I am overestimating is the importance of strength for weapons combat.

[snow is the man]

1 hour ago, White Walker King said:

You're saying they can win races. There is a difference between the type of muscles required for endurance and for strength. Walda already pointed out that castrati are better suited to endurance sports.

Maybe what I am overestimating is the importance of strength for weapons combat.

it depends on the weapon to be honest. But since the unsullied are supposed to be fighting in a lockstep formation the strength is in the group not the individual. That is what their trained to fight as so if you look it up it will explain it better. A real world equivelant is how the ancient greeks fought

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-07-27 at 7:27 PM, White Walker King said:

I don't know if this is an issue that has been addressed before. Having been castrated, the lack of testosterone should make it very difficult for them to build muscle. There are no testosterone injections in the world of Westeros like in modern world! Is there some kind of explanation for this, because every time I'm reminded that one of the best armies in existence is made up of castrated men, it feels oxymoronic and it bothers me. 

First of the guys who are picked for training are naturally the strongest and toughest ones and all their life is dedicated to training so they would be extremely good at fighting and their strength comes from their dicipline and formation.

They wouldnt stand a chance wrestling with a knight but in formation they are the best probably. Also they know no fear.

[Samwell_Tarly]

13 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

First of the guys who are picked for training are naturally the strongest and toughest ones and all their life is dedicated to training so they would be extremely good at fighting and their strength comes from their dicipline and formation.

They wouldnt stand a chance wrestling with a knight but in formation they are the best probably. Also they know no fear.

I disagree, we have seen them on multiple occasions in 1 on 1 combat and they fair pretty damn well. If Bronn can dispose of a KotV pretty easily im sure grey worm would have no problem at all doing the same. But yes in formation they are a very formidable force.