Rhaegar vs Aerys?

[John Doe]

I sometimes wonder how Tywin even managed to stay alive during Aerys' reign. 

[cpg2016]

23 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

1. Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children after the Trident to prevent any of Rhaegar's children from getting the throne.  He would have done the same even if the rebellion had not taken place.  Rhaegar's inheritance was in danger the moment Viserys was born.  The inheritance passed to Viserys.
2. Rhaegar would not get much support against his father.  Lords would hesitate because they all believed and supported that right to rule is not dependent on popularity.  The realm was, after all, very prosperous under Aerys.  Supporting a son's bid to remove his father from power would put their own inherited rights to hold power in danger.  

I'm not sure why you think either of these things are possible.

It's incredibly difficult for a king to disinherit his son; look at Aegon IV, who wanted nothing more than to make Daemon Blackfyre his heir instead of Daeron.  But he couldn't.

The various lords in Westeros won't stand for it, because it destabilizes the entire social order.  If the rules of primogeniture don't broadly rule, then you'll get fratricidal warfare between sons aiming for their father's inheritance.

Also, it's pretty clear that Rhaegar would have gotten a lot of support.  Dorne and Casterly Rock for sure.  Most attendees at the Tourney at Harrenhal are at least suspect.

No one is arguing that the right to rule is dependent on popularity.  But brutal, vicious, or insane rulers who violate the feudal contract are considered to be fair game for replacement (Maegor the Cruel and Aegon II come to mind).  Aerys fits the bill for all three.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I doubt Varys would have let Rhaegar depose Aerys.

[TMIFairy]

21 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I doubt Varys would have let Rhaegar depose Aerys.

Varys is NOT omnipotent.

He has no "power" but acts through agents - and these can (and occasionally do) go rogue.

He has gaps in knowledge.

His "little birds" are NOT everywhere.

And their reports take time to reach KL.

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Varys is NOT omnipotent.

He has no "power" but acts through agents - and these can (and occasionally do) go rogue.

He has gaps in knowledge.

His "little birds" are NOT everywhere.

And their reports take time to reach KL.

He doesn't need to be omnipotent to help find support for Aerys. Also, he was aware, or strongly suspected, what Rhaegar was up to. I can't imagine he wouldn't have had a stabby little bird or something tucked away somewhere.

[Graydon Hicks]

varys's little birds might have been why rhaegar was traveling as much as he was talking to lords and heirs face to face. i dont think he could risk having any letters sent from the relative safety of dragonstone being intercepted by vary's agents, he likely had one planted on each maester to a major lords, and the contents getting back to aerys, as incontestable proof of rhaegar's treason. while a face to face meeting might be suspiscious, the lack of written eveidence made things too risky to present to aeyrs, the king might take his paranoia out on his master of whispers under the excuse of trying to play the targaryens off each other. when someone is as paranoid as aerys was, and with his level of authority, you have to be very careful about accusing someone, because there is always a good chance it could backfire and its your ass dangling of a burning green brazier.

[Rusty Winchester]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 7:29 PM, cpg2016 said:

I'm not sure why you think either of these things are possible.

It's incredibly difficult for a king to disinherit his son; look at Aegon IV, who wanted nothing more than to make Daemon Blackfyre his heir instead of Daeron.  But he couldn't.

The various lords in Westeros won't stand for it, because it destabilizes the entire social order.  If the rules of primogeniture don't broadly rule, then you'll get fratricidal warfare between sons aiming for their father's inheritance.

Also, it's pretty clear that Rhaegar would have gotten a lot of support.  Dorne and Casterly Rock for sure.  Most attendees at the Tourney at Harrenhal are at least suspect.

No one is arguing that the right to rule is dependent on popularity.  But brutal, vicious, or insane rulers who violate the feudal contract are considered to be fair game for replacement (Maegor the Cruel and Aegon II come to mind).  Aerys fits the bill for all three.

Agree with a lot of this. I find it interesting that several posters have suggested that Rhaegar wouldn't have much support, when Robert was able to raise half the country against him based on the pretty soft claims that 1st he has a bit of dragon blood in him from somewhere way back his family tree and 2nd that Aerys is a mean jerk who nobody likes.

I think it's highly unlikely that those two would have got into a Targ/Blackfyre style civil war simply because neither have the motivation to fight that way. Rhaegar as a peaceable man is trying to ensure he has the support of the various high lords of Westeros before removing his father. Perhaps he had a comfortable room, a maester and a locking door in mind, but he would have been much smarter to have just had him chucked out a high tower window and claimed that 'He said that he was a dragon, and dragons can fly. Then he jumped.'  If you've got the heir to the throne, sitting on the throne and the old king is dead after slowly growing more and more erratic, it's pretty hard to argue with. Yes some lords were profiting from his madness, but even they must have realized the guy was unhinged and might decide they were traitors at any moment.

Similarly it would have been hard for the mad king to disinherit his son, but easy to have him killed. It's not like it'd be the first time he'd done that. Sadly Rhaegar was a nice guy, and the mad king was too mad to be subtle, so civil war comes instead. Robert kills them both (one directly, the other not) and ends up finding a whole new way to muck up the kingdom.

[TMIFairy]

22 minutes ago, Rusty Winchester said:

Agree with a lot of this. I find it interesting that several posters have suggested that Rhaegar wouldn't have much support, when Robert was able to raise half the country against him based on the pretty soft claims that 1st he has a bit of dragon blood in him from somewhere way back his family tree and 2nd that Aerys is a mean jerk who nobody likes.

 

1 - Robert did not "raise half the country" against the Targs. It was Aerys who forced The North, Vale and Stormlands to rebel. It was "rebel or become the centerpiece of a barbecue event". The Tully's jumped on the bandwagon.

The idea of "Robert for King" came about around the battle of Ruby Ford.

2 - the somewhere back in the family tree was his grandmother Rhealle, the King's aunt, a person which the older generation of Lords could had known in person.

3 - "soft claim [...] that Aerys is a mean jerk who nobody likes." - I leave this asnine remark without comment ....

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:00 PM, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Grand Meester Pycelle once wrote a letter saying that the divisions at court strongly resembled those immediately before the Dance of the Dragons. Some say that if Robert's Rebellion had never happened, Aerys would have eventually either disinherited Rhaegar or killed him. Let's assume Rhaegar does not make the dumb decision of crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty and never kidnaps her. Do you think a civil war could have broken out between Rhaegar and Aerys anyways, and if so, what do you think would have happened?

Nobody can know what might have happened with your contrary-to-fact hypothesis, but I do think there is sufficient evidence to suspect that Rhaegar was plotting a coup. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/28/2017 at 8:46 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

He never kidnaped her. But, assuming he never met up with her in the riverlands, she would have gone to find him, confusion would still abound and everything would happen as written in the book 

Rhaegar most certainly did kidnap Lyanna. 

Just like we see in ASOIAF references and homages to our astronomy and historical culture we see the suggestion of medieval laws and punishments. Since the blue star in the Ice Dragon (or its rider) is similar to the North Star, we can make some limited assumptions about it based on the real world, as long as those very limited assumptions fit within the structure of the tale. I don't believe we've been told explicitly that Septons take a vow of chastity. But we can see that they are inspired by Catholic priests, and we can assume that they likely do take a vow of chastity since that would fit within the structure of the story.

Given that so much of the culture of the Seven Kingdoms north of Dorne appears to be inspired by medieval England, I think we should assume that common law, or at least the principles guiding common law, apply.

The act, which was done with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell, was a kidnapping by definition. Lyanna was an infant (by which I mean she had not yet reached the age of majority), and she lacked the legal capacity to consent to the abduction. Fathers, or the father's lord, appear to have plenary power over the matrimonial arrangements of their offspring ASOIAF, and Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/29/2017 at 0:34 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Whispers and rumors to a king with the madness already starting in. Whispers and rumors are a deadly thing in this world. Whispers (words on the wind) have been shown to have the power to 'kill' everyone from individuals, to entire cultures (ex; free folk).

• When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."
• The Mad King could be savagely cruel, as seen most plainly when he burned those he perceived to be his enemies, but he could also be extravagant, showering men who pleased him with honors, offices, and lands. The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Prince Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.
• Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

And behind it all is the greed of prestige and money. They could get what they wanted from a mentally ill Aerys, but not from Rhaegar:

• If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

Whispers, especially from Varys, can be deadly:

• Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined. When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers.
• In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.
• His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne. Yet with Varys the Spider and his whisperers listening, it had become very dangerous to voice any of these sentiments aloud.

 

And there's this...

Quote

Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin’s plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. “He may or he may not,” Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, “but if he does, we have a better king right here.” Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

And this...

Quote

This is known: The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II’s tenth year upon the Iron Throne.

Most took this simply as an attempt by Whent to outdo the former Hand and demonstrate the wealth and splendor of his house. There were those, however, who believed this no more than a ruse, and Lord Whent no more than a cat’s-paw. His lordship lacked the funds to pay such munificient prizes, they argued; someone else must surely have stood behind him, someone who did not lack for gold but preferred to remain in the shadows whilst allowing the Lord of Harrenhal to claim the glory for hosting this magnificent event. We have no shred of evidence that such a “shadow host” ever existed, but the notion was widely believed at the time and remains so today.

But if indeed there was a shadow, who was he, and why did he choose to keep his role a secret? A dozen names have been put forward over the years, but only one seems truly compelling: Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone.

If this tale be believed, ‘twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship’s brother Ser Oswell as a go-between. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

...

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King’s Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar’s supporters and the king’s.

The Fall of the Dragons, TWOIAF

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Rhaegar most certainly did kidnap Lyanna. 

Just like we see in ASOIAF references and homages to our astronomy and historical culture we see the suggestion of medieval laws and punishments. Since the blue star in the Ice Dragon (or its rider) is similar to the North Star, we can make some limited assumptions about it based on the real world, as long as those very limited assumptions fit within the structure of the tale. I don't believe we've been told explicitly that Septons take a vow of chastity. But we can see that they are inspired by Catholic priests, and we can assume that they likely do take a vow of chastity since that would fit within the structure of the story.

Given that so much of the culture of the Seven Kingdoms north of Dorne appears to be inspired by medieval England, I think we should assume that common law, or at least the principles guiding common law, apply.

The act, which was done with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell, was a kidnapping by definition. Lyanna was an infant (by which I mean she had not yet reached the age of majority), and she lacked the legal capacity to consent to the abduction. Fathers, or the father's lord, appear to have plenary power over the matrimonial arrangements of their offspring ASOIAF, and Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. 

Not at all. She was a grown woman, already betrothed. you need to read more than just Bob's account as he was not there 

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not at all. She was a grown woman, already betrothed. you need to read more than just Bob's account as he was not there 

She might have been 16 at the time of the abduction. If so, she would have just turned 16, since she was 16 when she died in her bed of blood, presumably, about nine months later. But even if she had reached the age of majority, her father had already betrothed her to Robert. She had no legal capacity to consent to the abduction. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She might have been 16 at the time of the abduction. If so, she would have just turned 16, since she was 16 when she died in her bed of blood, presumably, about nine months later. But even if she had reached the age of majority, her father had already betrothed her to Robert. She had no legal capacity to consent to the abduction. 

We aren't talking about westerosi consent laws, because there aren't any.  In keeping with your "Medieval England" inspiration, at 16 she should have been married and had two, possibly more children (assuming they survived). This being a fantasy novel, she was not married earlier so her father could use her for his alliance building. Couple this with her wolf's blood like her older brother and her willingly leaving her retinue to go off with the sexy prince is far more plausible than her being dragged away at sword point 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

We aren't talking about westerosi consent laws, because there aren't any.  In keeping with your "Medieval England" inspiration, at 16 she should have been married and had two, possibly more children (assuming they survived). This being a fantasy novel, she was not married earlier so her father could use her for his alliance building. Couple this with her wolf's blood like her older brother and her willingly leaving her retinue to go off with the sexy prince is far more plausible than her being dragged away at sword point 

In this world at this time, sure. But in the world of ASOIAF, she had no right to go off with Rhaegar. Her father Lord of Winterfell had betrothed her to another. 

[Graydon Hicks]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Rhaegar most certainly did kidnap Lyanna. 

Just like we see in ASOIAF references and homages to our astronomy and historical culture we see the suggestion of medieval laws and punishments. Since the blue star in the Ice Dragon (or its rider) is similar to the North Star, we can make some limited assumptions about it based on the real world, as long as those very limited assumptions fit within the structure of the tale. I don't believe we've been told explicitly that Septons take a vow of chastity. But we can see that they are inspired by Catholic priests, and we can assume that they likely do take a vow of chastity since that would fit within the structure of the story.

Given that so much of the culture of the Seven Kingdoms north of Dorne appears to be inspired by medieval England, I think we should assume that common law, or at least the principles guiding common law, apply.

The act, which was done with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell, was a kidnapping by definition. Lyanna was an infant (by which I mean she had not yet reached the age of majority), and she lacked the legal capacity to consent to the abduction. Fathers, or the father's lord, appear to have plenary power over the matrimonial arrangements of their offspring ASOIAF, and Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. 

so, willfully allowed herself to be kidnapped?

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

with her [Lyanna's] wolf's blood like her older brother and her willingly leaving her retinue to go off with the sexy prince is far more plausible than her being dragged away at sword point 

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/002/109/orly_owl.jpg

[Graydon Hicks]

24 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/002/109/orly_owl.jpg

what are you? george lopez?

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

so, willfully allowed herself to be kidnapped?

Yes, apparently. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:09 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

We aren't talking about westerosi consent laws, because there aren't any.  In keeping with your "Medieval England" inspiration, at 16 she should have been married and had two, possibly more children (assuming they survived). This being a fantasy novel, she was not married earlier so her father could use her for his alliance building. Couple this with her wolf's blood like her older brother and her willingly leaving her retinue to go off with the sexy prince is far more plausible than her being dragged away at sword point 

She only had a touch of wolf's blood , while Brandon had more than a touch . That is according to Eddard Stark .