Archangel Lucifer

United States of Europe

29 posts in this topic

I don't see Europe uniting at a federal level in our lifetime. Maybe a loose Confederation through the EU, but that's as close as they'll get.

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Both my head and heart are saying it's not gonna happen. The EU being a bloated mess does not bode well for ambitions of true unity.

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I wouldn't bet money on it. Keep in mind that the states of the United States don't give each other loans the way European institutions do to countries like Greece -- the wealthier ones actively subsidize the poorer ones through wealth redistribution via the federal government. I rather doubt you can get European countries to agree to such a scheme. Also, keep in mind that the states joined together when they were relatively weak in all respects and by the time they became stronger, it was too late to back out (we all know what happened when some tried). Finally, the nations of Europe are much more distinct from each other than the American states were and even the EU might be a step too far (note the attitudes regarding refugees).

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The Euro (ironically) killed the United States of Europe idea more effectively than anything else.

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The Euro played a big role, but I would also point out the Eastern Extension was not the best of ideas.

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On 29/07/2017 at 2:37 AM, Altherion said:

I wouldn't bet money on it. Keep in mind that the states of the United States don't give each other loans the way European institutions do to countries like Greece -- the wealthier ones actively subsidize the poorer ones through wealth redistribution via the federal government. I rather doubt you can get European countries to agree to such a scheme. ...

While the EU budget isn't that big as a percentage of the economy almost all it does is redistribution. And investing in a way to make redistribution in the future a lesser necessity.

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Posted (edited)

On 28.7.2017 at 11:54 PM, Archangel Lucifer said:

What do you guys think about it ? I think this will never happen  but who knows

 

http://ktfnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/united_states_of_europe.png

I would say that in western europe the indiginous population is getting more global every day. Western europe also has a large population of non indiginous europeans living there. I am unsure if we will se a united states of europe, but i think european region are merging more and more. Some blocks could be the nordic countries, the baltic, the visegrad group, Intermarium, Iberia or maybe a new region of charlamagne (France, Benelux,Germany)?

Edited by norwaywolf123

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On 29.7.2017 at 8:42 AM, Notone said:

The Euro played a big role, but I would also point out the Eastern Extension was not the best of ideas.

Eastern extension took potential russian allies to the western side it was a sucess. Maybe russia could join NATO? I doubt it though russia has turned more towards China when it should look to Poland i think.

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On 29.7.2017 at 2:37 AM, Altherion said:

Finally, the nations of Europe are much more distinct from each other than the American states were and even the EU might be a step too far (note the attitudes regarding refugees).

Europe is getting more similar demographicly. Europe has the same irreligous native populations. The religous are a small minority in western europe. Some easter european countries are more religous. Most europeans are ony nominally religous and dont practice the religion.

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I think the last few decades have seen a move towards a global society and away from 'Nationalities'. The message is that we are all part of the same beautiful pot of human beings and that nationality is just a social construct that we need to break down and get rid of. This is the message in Europe anyway where there is sense of shame of being nationalistic or patriotic. 

The EU clearly has ambitions to become one singular political bloc. It makes a lot of sense, when you have huge powers such as the USA, Russia and China in the world, being a series of small squabbling countries leaves you being left behind. As one bloc Europe could potentially be the #1 powerhouse on the planet. 

However, what we are seeing now is that you don't get rid of national identities that easily. Humans are essentially tribal and derive a sense of self from their national culture. The destruction of that is of course going to cause a lot of pushback, and we are seeing it all over Europe. Brexit being the main signifier. Large scale immigration has led to a lot of resentment of the EU, especially in a time of financial crisis. Peoples identities are feeling threatened and they are retreating to their national identities. 

I'd say a European state of some kind is probably inevitable, but when it happens is hard to say. I'm guessing at least 2 generations. There will almost certainly be a new financial crisis in Europe at some point and that will mean things either go one way or another. Countries will break away, which looks more likely now, or there will be a bigger push to unify.

Either way, the current state of the EU is horrendous. Something needs to change.

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12 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Eastern extension took potential russian allies to the western side it was a sucess. Maybe russia could join NATO? I doubt it though russia has turned more towards China when it should look to Poland i think.

They tried. The result was a rejection, and the creation of the Warsaw Pact.

NATO's reason for existence is as a "We Hate Russia" Club. Which is why the old Soviet satellite states joined it.

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8 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

They tried. The result was a rejection, and the creation of the Warsaw Pact.

NATO's reason for existence is as a "We Hate Russia" Club. Which is why the old Soviet satellite states joined it.

I think Putin was asked to apply for membership, but was so appalled at this seeming insult that they rejected the idea. I'm not sure that NATO has to be the 'anti Russia club', it could simply be a group of nations looking for mutual protection. Russia obviously doesn't see it that way and still stick to the old views.

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14 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Europe is getting more similar demographicly. Europe has the same irreligous native populations. The religous are a small minority in western europe. Some easter european countries are more religous. Most europeans are ony nominally religous and dont practice the religion.

They obviously don't understand that the wages of sin are damnation. 

*You may now return to regularly scheduled thread content.*

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16 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Eastern extension took potential russian allies to the western side it was a sucess. Maybe russia could join NATO? I doubt it though russia has turned more towards China when it should look to Poland i think.

You can certainly make that argument. However, when we're talking about a closer European Union or taking that a step further the United States of Europe, then this argument doesn't work (at least imho).

Putting aside the latent racism and xenophobia towards Slavomir Foreigner, that exists in the West. We would still have different concepts/perceptions of what the EU actually is, and what European values are. I'll explain a bit, what I mean by that.. The loudest voices with regards to European values essentially being Christian vlaues (whatever the hell those are) which tend to conincide with a certain skin tone are coming from the so called visegard states. Other than that, many eastern states are not really embracing European values (as democratic principles laid out by the old western European EU countries), and they often stomp their feet, when the EU tries to enforce those values as meddling in their internal affairs, and they are merely on board for the economic perks. Just take a quick look at Hungary and Poland (with their justice reform). How do you reconcile those two concepts?  Thus Hollande and Merkel were talking of a Europe of two paces after the Brexit referendum. With a closer political cooperation between France, Germany and a few others EU states. The Eastern states were/are a bit suspicious about those talks and are a bit afraid to be left out (and being disadvantaged by a closer cooperation of rich western states). Thus, I think some sorta United States of Europe idea would look more likely, if it were just the Western States (sans the UK), without the Visegard group.

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, Notone said:

Putting aside the latent racism and xenophobia towards Slavomir Foreigner, that exists in the West.

There is not much anti slavic sentiment in western europe, still they have in some instances been blamed for taking jobs. The reason these migrants are allowed west is becouse of low population growth in western europe. There are not enough people to replace those leaving the workforce.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-18364.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8396626/ns/world_news-europe/t/frances-new-media-star-polish-plumber/#.WYSaNvlSDIU

There is some anti russia sentiment which is a legacy of the soviet union which was seen in the west as greater russia. My country norway used to be friendlier towards russia. There even was a russo norwegian language spoken by traders in the far north. In Norway people on the border tend to be softer on russia. The russian "liberation" of crimea is not popular either.

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russenorsk

Quote

We would still have different concepts/perceptions of what the EU actually is, and what European values are. I'll explain a bit, what I mean by that.. The loudest voices with regards to European values essentially being Christian vlaues (whatever the hell those are) which tend to conincide with a certain skin tone are coming from the so called visegard states. Other than that, many eastern states are not really embracing European values (as democratic principles laid out by the old western European EU countries), and they often stomp their feet, when the EU tries to enforce those values as meddling in their internal affairs, and they are merely on board for the economic perks. Just take a quick look at Hungary and Poland (with their justice reform). How do you reconcile those two concepts?  Thus Hollande and Merkel were talking of a Europe of two paces after the Brexit referendum. With a closer political cooperation between France, Germany and a few others EU states. The Eastern states were/are a bit suspicious about those talks and are a bit afraid to be left out (and being disadvantaged by a closer cooperation of rich western states). Thus, I think some sorta United States of Europe idea would look more likely, if it were just the Western States (sans the UK), without the Visegard group.

European values is everchanging and not a constant. Are european values the dominant value system on the continent of europe or the values of the indiginous population. 

Some of the eastern european countries like Hungary dont want to be colonised demographicly. I think their perception of themselves is that being hungarian or polish is ethnicity or tribal identity while western europe has changed to more american citizenship.

Eastern europe dont owe western europe anything, if the west dont want to be allies with eastern europe but want to be their master they will simply turn somewhere else.

Edited by norwaywolf123

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17 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Some of the eastern european countries like Hungary dont want to be colonised demographicly. I think their perception of themselves is that being hungarian or polish is ethnicity or tribal identity while western europe has changed to more american citizenship.

Thank you for making my point again. And for not pointing out how you would reconcile those points (which you need to do) in order to create some sort of United States of Europe.

18 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Eastern europe dont owe western europe anything, if the west dont want to be allies with eastern europe but want to be their master they will simply turn somewhere else.

EU as masters and the East as serfs? Really? You need to resort to the EU wants to rule over you stick the far right uses? And how is that relevant towards the idea of the United States of Europe? Afterall the Eastern States decided to join on their own accord (for the economical perks), if they feel the obligation to guarantee western democratic values is too steep a price to pay, maybe they should indeed look towards Moscow.

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7 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think the last few decades have seen a move towards a global society and away from 'Nationalities'. The message is that we are all part of the same beautiful pot of human beings and that nationality is just a social construct that we need to break down and get rid of. This is the message in Europe anyway where there is sense of shame of being nationalistic or patriotic. 

....

With 'Nationalities' being a recent development themselves their demise doesn't seem so weird. But I disagree that we are moving to some single cultured global society. What is interesting to me is that the EU has allowed older more regional identities to flourish again, acting as an umbrella of protection against the homogenizing national identities. 

We can see it in the recognition of regional languages, the recognition of local food, (at times cross-border) regional development funds.

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1 minute ago, Seli said:

With 'Nationalities' being a recent development themselves their demise doesn't seem so weird. But I disagree that we are moving to some single cultured global society. What is interesting to me is that the EU has allowed older more regional identities to flourish again, acting as an umbrella of protection against the homogenizing national identities. 

We can see it in the recognition of regional languages, the recognition of local food, (at times cross-border) regional development funds.

Why did you say 'allowed'? Like they would ban it! 

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28 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Why did you say 'allowed'? Like they would ban it! 

Allowed as in 'made possible', 'enabled', 'facilitated'. In contrast to the nation states who have had a tendency to do the banning.

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