Young Griff and historical mirroring

[JoryCassel]

If Young Griff is a Blackfyre descendant. Is it possible he is partly historically mirroring Henry VII of the Wars of the Roses? 

Henry VII was a descendant of John of Beaufort, a legitimised bastard. The Blackfyres were also legitimised. 

Henry was a descendant of the bastard through his mother. This could mean Young Griff is descended from the Blackfyres through a female line. Originally from a secret Blackfyre child way back?

Finally Henry VII then returned with an army from Europe after many years of exile.

I know it's dangerous to theorise ASOIAF on history but I thought there was an interesting similarity between Young Griff and Henry VII? 

Thanks 

 

[TMIFairy]

FWIW - looks good to me

[Fishb20]

makes sense

does this mean that Young Griff will marry Arya or Sansa?

(henry VII married one of the yorks, its pretty clear that the Yorks are represented in the story by the Starks)

edit: opps, i misremembered. He married Elizabeth of York, but she was in fact a tudor, not a york. Not sure which westeros house represents the tudors. Tyrells maybe?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

 

JANUARY 18, 2000

INFLUENCE OF THE WARS OF THE ROSES

Is it true that you based A Song of Ice and Fire off the War of Roses?

No, not really. Certainly I wanted to give my series a strong grounding in real medieval history, rather than in other fantasy novels, but I drew on a whole number of sources and periods. The Wars of the Roses, yes, but also the Hundred Years War, the Crusades, the Norman Conquest... you name it.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Influence_of_the_Wars_of_the_Roses

[Fishb20]

@Lost Melnibonean

it says right in the quote that he was partially inspired by the war of the roses, so its not unreasonable to assume that a character could be inspired by a figure from TWOTR, similar to how Tyrion was inspired by Richard III or Cersei by Mary of Anjou

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, Fishb20 said:

@Lost Melnibonean

it says right in the quote that he was partially inspired by the war of the roses, so its not unreasonable to assume that a character could be inspired by a figure from TWOTR, similar to how Tyrion was inspired by Richard III or Cersei by Mary of Anjou

Absolutely. IIRC a lot of @Fire Eater's ideas stem from the War of the Roses. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Young Griff seems to mirror Perkin Warbeck quite a bit: a handsome, charming young man from a neighboring land claiming to be the presumed-dead son of the previous monarch. Both resembled their alleged fathers, landed right after a period of civil war, and were able to rouse support among those who opposed the current monarch. Perkin was most likely a fraud, however, and was executed by Henry VII. I imagine that Aegon won't be getting much of a happy ending either. 

[Castellan]

By having Dany as an exiled contender for the throne as well it messes things up just enough that we can't predict. Which one is Henry VII? I don't see gender as a real barrier for the 'mirroring'.

[Castellan]

13 hours ago, Fishb20 said:

@Lost Melnibonean

it says right in the quote that he was partially inspired by the war of the roses, so its not unreasonable to assume that a character could be inspired by a figure from TWOTR, similar to how Tyrion was inspired by Richard III or Cersei by Mary of Anjou

Hmm I would say Cersei is Elizabeth Woodville, Edward IV's wife.

Other posters have argued that Jaime and Tyrion together account for her brother Anthony Woodville, representing his knightly and scholarly parts.

In this system, Stannis would be Richard III, not Tyrion.

But, of course, it is muddled up and overlaid and if Tyrion ends up killing Tommen (which is possible) then we could say it seems he was modelled on Richard II after all.

 

[Fishb20]

2 hours ago, Castellan said:

Hmm I would say Cersei is Elizabeth Woodville, Edward IV's wife.

Other posters have argued that Jaime and Tyrion together account for her brother Anthony Woodville, representing his knightly and scholarly parts.

In this system, Stannis would be Richard III, not Tyrion.

But, of course, it is muddled up and overlaid and if Tyrion ends up killing Tommen (which is possible) then we could say it seems he was modelled on Richard II after all.

 

Tyrion is inspired by Richard III because he was known as a vile midget to a lot of the people in england

in reality of course, Richard III was in fact not a dwarf, but instead had a severe case of scoliosis, with the legend of his villainry and ugly-shortness likely inspiring parts of Tyrion 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

On 7/30/2017 at 0:37 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Young Griff seems to mirror Perkin Warbeck quite a bit: a handsome, charming young man from a neighboring land claiming to be the presumed-dead son of the previous monarch. Both resembled their alleged fathers, landed right after a period of civil war, and were able to rouse support among those who opposed the current monarch. Perkin was most likely a fraud, however, and was executed by Henry VII. I imagine that Aegon won't be getting much of a happy ending either. 

YES! I've always had this theory, that Young Griff is merely the Richard Of York (Perkin Warbeck) of ASOIAF. I never even considered him being a Blackfyre, though I suppose thats possible. And Varys telling Kevan Lannister that he's been taught the meaning and duties of kingship, since the moment he could walk. Perkin Warbeck was also "bred" for the English Throne by the Capetian aristocracy, to prepare him to launch invasions and rebellions against England and to reclaim his "rightful" throne from Henry VII. He was able to launch two rebellions based solely on his claim, and that of the French cousins of Elizabeth Of York, Richards sister. Both failed and when he was captured and tortured, he admitted to being a pretender. There was also another whom tried to impersonate his brother, Edward (may have been a cousin, dont recall atm, I'd have to go through one of my Dan Jones books) named Lambert...The rest of his name escapes me right now. But he ultimately confessed to being a pretender. Another thing, Like Aegon being brutalized beyond recognition by The Mountain that Rides, that also mirrors the fact that neither the bodies of the real Richard & Edward (The Princes In The Tower) were ever recovered, even though most people suspected that they died in the tower of London. The fact that neither body could be recovered, it led to the opportunities of individuals who may have shared some resemblances to the real princes, it basically opened the door for pretenders to the throne and various other titles. Almost like how the vague nature surrounding baby Aegon's murder, led to a "Young Griff" being in existence and in turn aided the pretenders. 

 

And from what Tyrion takes of the lad, like noticing his red roots, how Illyrio, Connington & Varys continue to tell those they come in contact with how the boy loves music, is a skilled warrior, according to their various claims, and is educated in books, and then the tantrum he threw after Tyrion bested him in that game they were playing contradicting the claims of him being a "fine, noble lad", it seems to point to his story going down the Perkin Warbeck lane. The claim of him being a skilled fighter is also contradicted by the attack by the Stonemen, and how Tyrion basically saved his behind.

[Wild Bill]

Lambert Simnel or somesuch. Though, he was an outright fraud where Perkin Warbeck might have been the genuine Duke of York, or maybe a bastard of either Edward III or his sister Mary (Duchess of Flanders?)

[I'm trying not to go wikipedia for some reason...]

[Pikachu101]

On 29/07/2017 at 0:53 PM, JoryCassel said:

Henry VII was a descendant of John of Beaufort, a legitimised bastard. The Blackfyres were also legitimised. 

The general trend is Aegon = Henry VII, whilst (f)Aegon = Perkin Warbeck. So he's either Westeros' long lost heir ready to marry a Northern princess to secure his throne, or a pretender to Dany's Henry VII. 

On 29/07/2017 at 6:36 PM, Fishb20 said:

does this mean that Young Griff will marry Arya or Sansa?

The only man Arya will ever be with is Gendry so Sansa's his Elizabeth of York 

On 30/07/2017 at 11:07 AM, Castellan said:

In this system, Stannis would be Richard III, not Tyrion.

George took inspiration from TWotR but that doesn't mean only one character can be a historic figure, Stannis and Tyrion mirror Richard III but in different ways. Tyrion's the traditional view; an evil, grotesque uncle who murdered his innocent nephews, he even has play dedicated to him like Richard! Stannis on the other is the more modern take on him; a ruler who was trying to save his kingdom from collapsing into another civil war.

On 29/07/2017 at 6:36 PM, Fishb20 said:

He married Elizabeth of York, but she was in fact a tudor, not a york.

You were right the first time, she was born a Princess of York and married into the Tudor family, so she's still a parallel to Sansa

On 29/07/2017 at 6:36 PM, Fishb20 said:

Not sure which westeros house represents the tudors. Tyrells maybe?

I think the House Tudor is House Targaryen; an exiled heir coming back to take what is theirs, also George based Aegon IV and Maegor the Cruel off Henry VIII

As for the Tyrells I think they're the Nevilles of Westeros; Mace tried to make a king out Renly like Warwick did with George, and when that failed he married Margaery to Joffrey paralleling Anne's marriage to Edward of Westminster. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

5 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

Lambert Simnel or somesuch. Though, he was an outright fraud where Perkin Warbeck might have been the genuine Duke of York, or maybe a bastard of either Edward III or his sister Mary (Duchess of Flanders?)

[I'm trying not to go wikipedia for some reason...]

 

 

Thats it, Lambert Simnel. And yeah, Perkin only confessed after torture, which can't really be relied upon for a definitive answer either way. Sources from the time tend to conflict each other when it comes to his sister Elizabeth, Henry VII's wife and Queen. Some reports claimed that she recognized Perkin as her brother, via something like a birth mark. But again, these texts can't be relied upon as they aren't first hand accounts. Either way, I marked when I first noticed the similarities between Perkin Warbeck and GRRM's fictional Young Griff character, due to it being a subject that interested me. The Blackfyre angle would be awesome too, but I really think it'll go bad for Young Griff and he'll be found out once things start to get real. I'm looking forward to seeing how his invasion goes, especially with him taking the decision to lead an army as opposed to Jon Connington, despite him never being in a true battle before. 

 

Pikachu, the Nevilles/Tyrell comparisons are interesting, as well.

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/30/2017 at 8:27 AM, Fishb20 said:

Tyrion is inspired by Richard III because he was known as a vile midget to a lot of the people in england

in reality of course, Richard III was in fact not a dwarf, but instead had a severe case of scoliosis, with the legend of his villainry and ugly-shortness likely inspiring parts of Tyrion 

Richard III was split up into several people: Tyrion Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Ned Stark and Theon Greyjoy.

From the page on TVtropes  on historical inspirations for ASOIAF:

• Ned: popular and loved by Northern England for being a fair lawgiver and defender of their homeland. Richard of Gloucester was also named by Edward IV (a Robert Baratheon inspiration) as Regent of his children and tried to prove his children as bastards. Ned was also framed as an usurper and submitted to an in-Westeros Historical Hero Upgrade by his enemies, which is believed, by some historians, to have happened to Gloucester.
• Tyrion is a version of Richard III, with his Deadpan Snarker rhetoric and angst about his disability and flirtations with Then Let Me Be Evil coming from Shakespeare's Richard III. In addition, there is a Show Within a Show play made of his exploits, called "The Bloody Hand" which submits Tyrion to a Historical Villain Upgrade analogous to the posthumous reputation of the Duke of Gloucester as a result of Shakepeare.
• Stannis: His brothers Robert and Renly are based on Edward IV and George Clarence, Richard III's brothers, and like his historical inspiration his campaign is based on his desire to prove the illegitimacy of his nephews. He's also a great military commander like Richard III, and faces opposition from a family symbolized by a rose. Stannis eventually wins support in the North after coming to rescue them from Wildlings and has a heavy emphasis on giving justice, while Richard III was similarly well-known for his defense of the North from Scottish border raids and his legal reforms.
• Theon: More heavily inspired by the darker interpretation of Richard III. Most notably, Theon imprisoning Bran and Rickon and proclaiming himself Prince of Winterfell, only for Bran and Rickon to disappear, closely mirrors Richard III and the Princes in the Tower. Unlike Theon, though, Richard did not personally ruin his reputation by claiming to have murdered the princes that vanished under his watch; history did that for him. Theon initially fights on behalf of the Starks and the North (his first kill was a wildling he shot to rescue Bran), which is similar to the Duke of Gloucester, who was well-known for his efforts to defend Northern England from Scottish raiders. However, the whole time he's fighting for King Robb Stark, Theon secretly resents his status as a Stark ward and dreams of imminently gaining his own glory as future King of the Iron Islands; this echoes the popular depiction of Richard as an opportunistic villain scheming for his brother's crown. Theon's fate, being tortured into an ugly, limping cripple is also a meta-joke on the manner in which Richard III was made into a caricature of a scheming hunchback by William Shakespeare. Theon's nickname Reeknote  also alludes to it.

[Wild Bill]

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Thats it, Lambert Simnel. And yeah, Perkin only confessed after torture, which can't really be relied upon for a definitive answer either way. Sources from the time tend to conflict each other when it comes to his sister Elizabeth, Henry VII's wife and Queen. Some reports claimed that she recognized Perkin as her brother, via something like a birth mark. But again, these texts can't be relied upon as they aren't first hand accounts. Either way, I marked when I first noticed the similarities between Perkin Warbeck and GRRM's fictional Young Griff character, due to it being a subject that interested me. The Blackfyre angle would be awesome too, but I really think it'll go bad for Young Griff and he'll be found out once things start to get real. I'm looking forward to seeing how his invasion goes, especially with him taking the decision to lead an army as opposed to Jon Connington, despite him never being in a true battle before. \

...

Perkin's treatment after his "confession" is quite interesting. He was treated as a royal prisoner, as opposed to being executed immediately, and had privileges, though not "access" to his wife - a scion of Scottish nobility - and, reportedly a great beauty. She gave birth to a male child shortly before his capture, whos whereabouts and survival are not known. But, it is said that Henry VII fancied her, and she was later set up, for life, with a nice manse and income.

His fate is odd, considering he was an existential threat to Henry VII. He was, however, executed a year or so later - he escaped the Tower along with another Yorkist with a theoretical claim to the thrown (I think the last Earl of Warwick (??), at the time, who was a simpleton that Lambert Simnel stood in for - but, again, I am denying myself Wikipedia for some perverse reason... I forget how he was executed, but it was not the typical, high crimes and disdemeanors, style of being hanged, then drawn and quartered.

Anyway, Aegon vs fAegon came up in the thread, and has not been argued thusfar. Nice.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

On 7/29/2017 at 8:53 AM, JoryCassel said:

If Young Griff is a Blackfyre descendant. Is it possible he is partly historically mirroring Henry VII of the Wars of the Roses? 

Henry VII was a descendant of John of Beaufort, a legitimised bastard. The Blackfyres were also legitimised. 

Henry was a descendant of the bastard through his mother. This could mean Young Griff is descended from the Blackfyres through a female line. Originally from a secret Blackfyre child way back?

Finally Henry VII then returned with an army from Europe after many years of exile.

I know it's dangerous to theorise ASOIAF on history but I thought there was an interesting similarity between Young Griff and Henry VII? 

Thanks 

 

Awesome theory I love it great work