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17 hours ago, Ice C said:

Just a little thought, as I'm currently reading Clash for the first time: "Under the sea" is "under water". Snow is frozen water. Under the sea could simply mean "in winter" ("under snow" - not Jon, obviously). In his own words, Patchface is saying, "Winter is coming", and he knows what will happen. His very first song is about a shadow, a few pages before Stannis gets the idea of murdering Renly.

Maybe he'll be holding a door for Bran at some point?

"under the sea" means above the wall in the true north. The wall and that region are constantly described as a sea and water-like. Including when Mel uses the euphemism for "ships" meaning free folk. 

Patchface reverses many things because of his own personal method of thinking, so up is down and vice versa, etc... as if he is observing through the looking glass. Things are reversed. 

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On 10/11/2017 at 0:20 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

"under the sea" means above the wall in the true north. The wall and that region are constantly described as a sea and water-like. Including when Mel uses the euphemism for "ships" meaning free folk. 

Patchface reverses many things because of his own personal method of thinking, so up is down and vice versa, etc... as if he is observing through the looking glass. Things are reversed. 

I'm not so sure of that. I've heard that grrm's bodyguards use "under the sea" as an immediate, scramble, emergency code word when he is under threat. I've also heard that "Patchface" is his code-name... ;)

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49 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

I'm not so sure of that. I've heard that grrm's bodyguards use "under the sea" as an immediate, scramble, emergency code word when he is under threat. I've also heard that "Patchface" is his code-name... ;)

Valar morghulis = get me a diet coke

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Valar morghulis = get me a diet coke

Do you have any sense of the meaning of: Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

smoke rising in bubbles = drowning

smoke - air that is breathed into the lungs and exhaled
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos I

Instead he sucked in a great gulp of air and dove, kicking for the bottom of the river. His only hope was to pass under the chain and the burning ships and the wildfire that floated on the surface of the water, to swim hard for the safety of the bay beyond. Davos had always been a strong swimmer, and he'd worn no steel that day, but for the helm he'd lost when he'd lost Black Betha. As he knifed through the green murk, he saw other men struggling beneath the water, pulled down to drown beneath the weight of plate and mail. Davos swam past them, kicking with all the strength left in his legs, giving himself up to the current, the water filling his eyes. Deeper he went, and deeper, and deeper still. With every stroke it grew harder to hold his breath. He remembered seeing the bottom, soft and dim, as a stream of bubbles burst from his lips. Something touched his leg . . . a snag or a fish or a drowning man, he could not tell.

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

"Grandfather," Mero said, "run off before I break your stick in two and bugger you with—"

The old man feinted with one end of the staff, pulled it back, and whipped the other end about faster than Dany would have believed. The Titan's Bastard staggered back into the surf, spitting blood and broken teeth from the ruin of his mouth. Whitebeard put Dany behind him. Mero slashed at his face. The old man jerked back, cat-quick. The staff thumped Mero's ribs, sending him reeling. Arstan splashed sideways, parried a looping cut, danced away from a second, checked a third mid-swing. The moves were so fast she could hardly follow. Missandei was pulling Dany to her feet when she heard a crack. She thought Arstan's staff had snapped until she saw the jagged bone jutting from Mero's calf. As he fell, the Titan's Bastard twisted and lunged, sending his point straight at the old man's chest. Whitebeard swept the blade aside almost contemptuously and smashed the other end of his staff against the big man's temple. Mero went sprawling, blood bubbling from his mouth as the waves washed over him. A moment later the freedmen washed over him too, knives and stones and angry fists rising and falling in a frenzy.

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

Finally, it was done. No more air was bubbling from his mouth, and all the strength had gone out of his limbs. Facedown in the shallow sea floated Emmond, pale and cold and peaceful.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

Sam sank like a stone, like a boulder, like a mountain. The water got into his eyes and up his nose, dark and cold and salty. When he tried to shout for help he swallowed more. Kicking and gasping, he rolled over, bubbles bursting from his nose. Swim, he told himself, swim. The brine stung his eyes when he opened them, blinding him. He popped to the surface for just an instant, sucked down air, and slapped desperately with one hand whilst the other scrabbled at the wall of the canal. But the stones were slick and slimy and he could not get a grasp. He sank again.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

The sudden cold hit Tyrion like a hammer. As he sank he felt a stone hand fumbling at his face. Another closed around his arm, dragging him down into darkness. Blind, his nose full of river, choking, sinking, he kicked and twisted and fought to pry the clutching fingers off his arm, but the stone fingers were unyielding. Air bubbled from his lips. The world was black and growing blacker. He could not breathe.

 

 

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you have any sense of the meaning of: Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

 

Flames burn green - wildfire or isn't Vicerions flames described as green with flecks of gold.

burn black - I think Drogon's flames are described as black I think. As black as him.

burn blue - I don't know but we have one more dragon. Maybe an ice zombie dragon. You never know :P

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There's also a passage in one of Jon's POV's in ACOK, on page 510, in which he describes the haunted forest, and the thickness and length of the trees, as he's looking at them from atop the Fist Of The First Men. He refers to it as "under that sea", in much the same way Jorah describes the ghost grass in AGOT, and Dany is thinking and keeps referring to it as the "green sea", but here's the excerpt from Jon's passage..

 

"A thousand leaves fluttered and for a moment the forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable....Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort through the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees."

 

 

Interesting, when you consider Patchface and what he may be truly meaning when he sings his riddles.

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you have any sense of the meaning of: Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

smoke rising in bubbles = drowning

smoke - air that is breathed into the lungs and exhaled
 

 

I will gladly join back in here when I get home to my computer :D I love this topic. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 3:49 PM, Ice C said:

Just a little thought, as I'm currently reading Clash for the first time: "Under the sea" is "under water". Snow is frozen water. Under the sea could simply mean "in winter" ("under snow" - not Jon, obviously). In his own words, Patchface is saying, "Winter is coming", and he knows what will happen. His very first song is about a shadow, a few pages before Stannis gets the idea of murdering Renly.

Maybe he'll be holding a door for Bran at some point?

I don't care for the "snow (or ice) = water" equivalency people try to make when talking about prophecy and/or legend. It's weak here, and it's weak when people try to do it for the Lightbringer story.

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4 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Flames burn green - wildfire or isn't Vicerions flames described as green with flecks of gold.

burn black - I think Drogon's flames are described as black I think. As black as him.

burn blue - I don't know but we have one more dragon. Maybe an ice zombie dragon. You never know :P

I think what Patchface is actually talking about is the fire for blood equation.  Whether that is blue, green or red fire.  Specifically, I think he is talking about the burning heart or the hot blood that defines life and how that is transformed after death.  In the case of the White Walkers, their blood is blue and so is the flame in their eyes.  With Melisandre, her blood is black although her eyes are red flame.  With wights, the flame is blue but their blood is black and coagulated.  I.E. their hands are black where the blood has pooled. 

The green flame is still a mystery.  The only reference we have for it is Shaggy Dog:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Robb had been holding his breath. He let it out with a sigh and called, "Grey Wind." His direwolf moved to him, swift and silent. Now there was only Shaggy dog, rumbling at the small man, his eyes burning like green fire.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

The darkness sprang at him, snarling.

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue's feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Summer howled, and darted away.

"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

It may have something to do with the greenwood or green men.

 

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I agree with Lynn S here. I have a theory I've been tossing around in my head about color and magic. I think there are three primary sources of magic with Ice/Fire/Water and they are equated with color. Ice/Blue/ White. Fire/Red/Black. Water/Green/Brown. It's really so simple and elemental in a sense but the complexity arises through the constant interactions, reactions, combinations, conflicts etc. when those elemental forces come together. I'm always thrilled when I see those colors and symbols come together in passages like Patchface's riddles. I think Ice and Fire are on the extreme ends of the spectrum and Water is the song in the middle.  It's also interesting that all three forces have a destructive and creative aspect. All life springs from the song. The code is the combination of the forces, I think and blood and/or sacrifice are the key.

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The narrow sea is going to go dry. Patchface's words beginning with under the sea are prophetic relating to events after the sea empties.

Aeron and Davos were both returned by the sea and hear voices (Aeron sees visions), they attribute their's to gods, Patchface is on the same stuff but doesn't attribute his to anything, parsed through his mind it comes out in jolly song.

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On 10/18/2017 at 4:33 AM, LynnS said:

Do you have any sense of the meaning of: Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

smoke rising in bubbles = drowning

smoke - air that is breathed into the lungs and exhaled
 

 

I am seriously sorry for the long delay. All hell broke lose when no one could find the milk in the refrigerator <_< But alas, my response time will continue to be spotty over the weekend. 

I am sure there are a variety of theories out there for Patcface and his "songs". I have speculated on many in my Nymeria thread, but for me, one thing that seems to be consistent is that Patchface seems to be speaking, nay, warning about the near future while at the wall/in the north, unlike Ghost of HH who tells about a wide range of events, but not tooo unlike Quaithe who gives the fire girl counsel that is also sorta "backwards"; "she told me much and more, but all in riddles." To go west you must go east, etc. With Patchface, when you go up north to the wall and beyond, you go into the sea, the underworld. The wall is described as one of the "hinges of the world," and so to me it fits. I do agree with other posters that someone/something is probably guiding Patchface and giving him visions of a sort.

Smoke rises in bubbles- During the mutiny, Jon says, "In the cold night air the wound was smoking", and I for one do not think Jon is dead but just wounded (possibly near fatal, but I have it spelled out my thoughts elsewhere). And then Jon feels the "cold," and by this it seems to me that now that the mutineers committed this crime, they in fact are the ones that brought down the wall. In a Jon chapter we are told, "A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it." Well, Bowen and co. broke, and so the wall broke, which means the Others are now coming, or close, or their eyes are turned that way. I do believe that the Others have been searching for Jon specifically, and the Waymar prologue seems to show this best. Now, what the intent is of the Others is a matter for another thread ^_^ and I will try to stay focused now... trying really hard... Anyway, it seems as though Jon's smoking blood is sending a signal up for those who need to find him.

Earlier this year I went through the books/search site and looked at all of the 370 references to smoke+blood, and there are only four times in the books where blood is described as "smoking", and each of those times has to do with either a magic incident, or poisoning, so either way the blood is tampered with. I think in Jon's case this is his "man reborn" moment. But I am sure you know those details.

Flames burn green, and blue, and black- The black brothers are going to fight and they are going to use the dragonglass from either Rolland Storm who Stannis put in charge a while ago to mine it and send it to the wall, and/or from some other various underground cave in the north that we know exists. Westeros is FULL of underground living and caves and secret hills, etc. Most are linked to the singers, but not all are. 

And we have Jon giving out dragonglass to his Night's Watch brothers, as the children did. I think this is another connection to Jon being older than his years, connected to the north, the children and the old gods. And remember Jon as the new Lord Commander is having his men train daily with their archery skills. This paired with the dragonglass arrowheads means the colorful flames will be flying, or as Patches might say, "flames burn". Plus, IF Bloodraven is working to save humanity from the Others, this is another connection to Jon performing the Old Gods work.

  • the dragonglass dagger Jon had given him and...
  • he dragonglass arrowheads and spearhead Jon had given him and the old horn too,
  • But Dywen listened, and Dolorous Edd, and they made Sam and Grenn tell the Lord Commander. Mormont frowned all through the tale and asked pointed questions, but he was too cautious a man to shun any possible advantage. He asked Sam for all the dragonglass in his pack, though that was little enough. Whenever Sam thought of the cache Jon had found buried beneath the Fist, it made him want to cry. There'd been dagger blades and spearheads, and two or three hundred arrowheads at least. Jon had made daggers for himself, Sam, and Lord Commander Mormont, and he'd given Sam a spearhead, an old broken horn, and some arrowheads. Grenn had taken a handful of arrowheads as well, but that was all.
    So now all they had was Mormont's dagger and the one Sam had given Grenn, plus nineteen arrows and a tall hardwood spear with a black dragonglass head. The sentries passed the spear along from watch to watch, while Mormont had divided the arrows among his best bowmen. Muttering Bill, Garth Greyfeather, Ronnel Harclay, Sweet Donnel Hill, and Alan of Rosby had three apiece, and Ulmer had four. But even if they made every shaft tell, they'd soon be down to fire arrows like all the rest. They had loosed hundreds of fire arrows on the Fist, yet still the wights kept coming.
  • "It's not mine," Sam said.
    [LC Mormont] "Jon Snow's dragonglass, then. If dragonglass daggers are what we need, why do we have only two of them? Every man on the Wall should be armed with one the day he says his words."
    "We never knew . . ."
    "We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"
     

And this replicates in the current story what we see the boy (child) Jon doing as the Children of the Forest once did

  • "Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"
    "I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree.

And we know from history, "Sam had almost forgotten about the wildlings, so much had happened since. "The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."

So in my opinion, the colorful fires burning blue, green, and black signifies the "frozen fire" (another opposites riddle) going into war as they did the last time it was needed on this large of a scale. Jon describes his first look at dragonglass as, " Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . . "

Times repeat, but with a small change each occurrence, so this event is "frozen in time" (depending on how you view the time/space continuum of ASOAIF)

  • "Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

    "On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

And this sorta leads me to my own crackpot about Mel and her ruby. I have a feeling that her ruby may possibly actually be red dragonglass (and also makes sense IF she is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera). George has said Mel is on her own mission, and Mel also uses the phrase "anathema to the children..." Well, anathema means a ban or curse (from an authority), and Mel is the only one seeking something other than Dany as the other red priests are. I think this may be a clue that Mel is a version of "frozen fire" and that is why she is older than she appears to be, and I think Mel is the last dagger Jon could not feel. There seems to be a clue to this when Mel burns the eagle when Stannis and she arrive at the wall... but again, that is another thread ;) (and probably heresy for me to say such things :o) .

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On 10/18/2017 at 8:54 PM, chrisdaw said:

The narrow sea is going to go dry. Patchface's words beginning with under the sea are prophetic relating to events after the sea empties.

Aeron and Davos were both returned by the sea and hear voices (Aeron sees visions), they attribute their's to gods, Patchface is on the same stuff but doesn't attribute his to anything, parsed through his mind it comes out in jolly song.

I have read mention of this in the past and have always been curious to know how people think this will happen. Is there is good thread you can link me to??? Thanks :)

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49 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have read mention of this in the past and have always been curious to know how people think this will happen. Is there is good thread you can link me to??? Thanks :)

I don't know of any topics for it.

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am seriously sorry for the long delay. All hell broke lose when no one could find the milk in the refrigerator <_< But alas, my response time will continue to be spotty over the weekend. 

Oh no problem.  I break out into panic when I can't find my glasses or my spare glasses; which I need to find my glasses.

I did my search on 'bubbles' and blowing bubbles of blood comes up as well, including drowning in blood when the lung is punctured.  It's the hot blood that heats the body and moves the air in the lungs throughout the body.  There is also a reference to Hodor bathing in the hot pools  of Winterfell and blowing bubbles when he breaks the surface.  As well there are bubbling hot pools and bodies rendered into blood and bones in the manner of the Silent Sisters preparing a body after death.

So I think Patchface is talking about blood/breathing and drowning/death.  We know there is a blood for fire/fire for blood exchange and it's doesn't seem to be just Red Rahloo's lot that pays that price.    We're familiar with the red flame and the blue flame but we haven't seen green flame yet.  So I'm curious since the origin of the green flame is 'under the sea', within the domain of the drowned god.

Bran names himself the prince of the greenwood; so I'm guessing that this will have something to do with the green men and the Isle of Faces. Patchface wears a tatoo'd mask of red and green checker board and sports antlers and motley in grey and green.  The colors of the sea and sentinel trees.  

Melisandre has powders to change a fire to blue and green and  make a black smoke that can kill a man.  Which is to say that she can create shadowbabies.  I do think her ruby is dragonglass and she draws her fire from it.  Jon describes it glowing like a third eye.  I suspect that glass candles are used in conjuction with fire and blood sacrifice to receive visions.

It is curious that Melisandre talks of the red sword of heros and the existence of red dragonglass in the caverns below Dragonstone.  The fancy sword that Sam describes to Aemon and that Stannis uses when Rattleshirt is burned; does sound like dragonglass.

The burning of the horn of Joramun  with it's blue and green flames; one of Melisandre's tricks to amaze and unsuspecting audience. 

Dragonglass may not be the only substance from which fire can be drawn.  I would include dragon horn and dragon teeth as well.  As it happens there are plenty of dragon teeth waiting for someone to pick them up at Kingslanding.  I imagine they will work just as well as dragonglass.

 

 

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't know of any topics for it.

I think this is a reference to Mirri Maaz Duur:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

 

When the seas go dry could be interpreted as when the seas freeze over, or it could be a vision of the past of an ice age, when the Narrow Sea was dry and water was captured in ice sheets and glaciers.  The preceding line: the sun rises in the west and sets in the east; could mean that this is a vision of the past with the sun running backwards along it's course.   

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On 10/11/2017 at 0:20 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Patchface reverses many things because of his own personal method of thinking, so up is down and vice versa, etc... as if he is observing through the looking glass. Things are reversed. 

Or looking up from the bottom of the sea, as Bran looks down through the eyes of a raven from the sky, but without recognizing the shift in perspective because of his derangement.

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