[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Le Cygne]

Diana Rigg you deserve better but thanks for bringing Olenna to life. The only good scene despite the atrocious dialogue you were given (Jaime wants to live peacefully in the world Cersei builds!)

[aliasocfan]

I almost forgot to mention it. 

What happens when you have your two blandest actors share a scene? I get bored to death. Dany and Jon meeting should have been great. 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Robb could rebel against Joffrey but he had no reason to also rebel against Stannis or Renly.

I'd argue that 3 Starks murdered by 2 Kings of 2 different dynasties (one of whom the Starks served loyally and the other who they actually put on the Throne), one claimant (Stannis) sitting on some pretty valuable knowledge that might have been a big help to Ned until it was way too late and then the other (Renly) abandoning Ned (from the Stark PoV) at the moment he was most needed is a pretty fair reason to decide that one is done with serving the King of the Iron Throne. Not smart, but I'd certainly say not unjustified.

[RhaenysBee]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, Isaac seemed bad but that could be what they're telling him to 'act'.  Emilia is just awful, and has been deadpanning around for years, even admitting that almost all Dany's lines are cringeworthy now.

I actually thought this was the best episode in some time, but maybe I've made peace with the stupidity of Cersei being super powerful, LOL.

I guess most viewers still luv Dany, I dunno, I hate her, but I hate her book self also.  

It's sad that no one in Westeros ever shares the important stuff, like that insane Sansa/Bran convo.  

I did really like the Jamie/QOT scene, despite hating the Highgarden depiction.  

I don't know, I guess I just really want to like Emilia because I so loved Daenerys in the beginning. And it's season 1 Daenerys that made me root for her all along but now I'm kinda just meh, whatever, let's kill off everybody and put Euron or Bronn on the iron throne, everybody else is just plain boring or plain terrible at this point.

i also thought this was the best episode for some time, and definitely the best episode in season 7. It was enjoyable to watch and I was either too tired to lose my mind over the lack of logic, or they managed to hide it well enough to keep the entertainment value. And many of the actors are delivering a stunning performance and I'm a sucker for previous season references. 

Both high garden and the rock looked bafflingly fake and unattractive. Especially the rock. The HG interior was at least somewhat aesthetic with the windows and a piece or two of pretty furniture. 

 

[TyrionFan82]

4 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I think its near impossible to bring tyrion back from this, they have just done everything so extreme. They took Daenerys, what seemed like unstoppable power and give it to Cersei. For me they should have just took the Armies and the dragons and sacked KL. Things dont add up anymore, id do a list but it annoys me to think about them all.

I KNOW!!!!! We were given the impression Dany would come and tear it up and now....NOW she's losing. I hope next week it turns a corner but we've got 3 eps left.

[Cas Stark]

11 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I don't know, I guess I just really want to like Emilia because I so loved Daenerys in the beginning. And it's season 1 Daenerys that made me root for her all along but now I'm kinda just meh, whatever, let's kill off everybody and put Euron or Bronn on the iron throne, everybody else is just plain boring or plain terrible at this point.

i also thought this was the best episode for some time, and definitely the best episode in season 7. It was enjoyable to watch and I was either too tired to lose my mind over the lack of logic, or they managed to hide it well enough to keep the entertainment value. And many of the actors are delivering a stunning performance and I'm a sucker for previous season references. 

Both high garden and the rock looked bafflingly fake and unattractive. Especially the rock. The HG interior was at least somewhat aesthetic with the windows and a piece or two of pretty furniture. 

 

Yep.  I just expected more from Highgarden, even though they apparently designed it so there would be no need for a siege...but good grief, Castle Stokeworth looked richer and more imposing than either CR or HG, and that was for a single throw away scene that had no actual purpose. for the show plots.  We've been hearing about both of these places for YEARS.  Very underwhelming.

The window shot w/QOT was good, but the rest, especially the gardens, weak.

Emilia has been really terrible this year.  She literally speaks every line as if it's going to be lifted for the trailer or made into a meme, there is nothing about her conversations that convey a human to human interaction anymore.  I say again, when Kit Harrington is out acting you, you need an acting coach, asap.

eta, I usually knock Gillen, but I thought he did a good job considering that monologue about doing everything all the time was deeply nonsensical, he made it sound almost logical.  They've fallen hard since chaos is a ladder, though

[Samwell_Tarly]

4 minutes ago, TyrionFan82 said:

I KNOW!!!!! We were given the impression Dany would come and tear it up and now....NOW she's losing. I hope next week it turns a corner but we've got 3 eps left.

I would have much preferred her to come and just take the Iron throne. I hope it does a full U turn cos I seriously hated episode 3 and lost faith pretty much it all.

ahem we have 4 

[Bear Claw]

15 minutes ago, aliasocfan said:

I almost forgot to mention it. 

What happens when you have your two blandest actors share a scene? I get bored to death. Dany and Jon meeting should have been great. 

It felt kind of flat for me. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Ha! The website finally works and I can rant

First, the scene between Jon and Dany made no sense to me and it's officially the worst acting in the history of the show. This was one of the most scenes in the GoT. Why couldn't they put more effort in it? Kit H looked totally helpless like he forgot all his lines and waited for Liam to prompt him. And Dany was plastic as usual but this time I don't blame her, I wouldn't be impressed too.

I know that D&D got rid of the direwolves but Ghost should have been there. Jon and Dany are the only ones who have magic creatures by their sides. I'd rather have cut off Nymeria scene.

Dany's monologue was weird at least. What happened to "moon of my life"?

And the rest. Jaime and Cersei were beyond cringeworthy. Their relationship crumbled since Joffrey's death. It was not only in the books, the show showed it too. What happened? BTW, was it NCW's ass or did he have a body double?

I have a feeling (probably I got it too late, but still) that the showrunners love suffering too much. A major part of the episode was focused on describing differents sorts of execution or torturing. And here I come to the next point: Bran.

Apparently Bran spent too much time in the cold and has frozen off all his mind and emotions. Or he was stoned all the time. And why from all the events that happened since they parted in s1 he taunted his sister with her rape? "It's hard to explain" (c)

The last thing. LF is reduced to the roll of a creepy lap dog, that runs behind Sansa talking nonsense.

 

[KarlVyt]

The music really annoys me .It's trying to be emotional and epic on something hollow that lacks any trace of substance.

Also the leaks were pretty much spot on so I guess we know how this sh*tshow is going to end. 

[princess_snow]

4 hours ago, Snormund said:

First time posting here, although I have lurked here after episodes of the last two seasons.  I appreciate these threads as I am very upset with the way the show has diverged from the books, and subsequently seen its quality diminish significantly.   Seasons 1-4 weren't perfect but they were nonetheless brilliant IMO, and I loved them immensely.  Starting in season 5 with the complete ruination of the Dorne and Stannis storylines, things got really messy, to say the least.

 

This episode was often infuriating for me.  It was still enjoyable at times because it is still based on a phenomenal story after all.  However, I do not like the direction this show continues to go in.

 

 

Complaints about E03:

 

*I cannot possibly imagine anyone less likable than Daenerys.  The fact that they are going to make Jon become her love slave is disgusting and IMO is just destroying his character.  She is insufferable, spoiled, entitled brat (who at times e shows signs of becoming a villain) and I cannot see why he would fall for her; it doesn't fit his character at all.  Despite her imprisoning Jon and Davos after they came to her for help (simply because they didn't kiss her ass enough) and other instances of her having a disturbing goddess complex,I feel that the show expects us to cheer for Dany, and I find that quite impossible; she is probably my most hated living character on the show at this point.  Hearing her brag about how she was the first person in ages to hatch dragons or marshall the Dothraki across the sea was cringe-inducing.  Emilia Clarke's horrific acting doesn't do Dany any favors on the show either.

*I am very biased because I have an absolutely MASSIVE crush on Carice Van Houten, but I feel that this show has severely underutilized her and her character Melisandre the past two seasons.  First of all, she had limited interactions with Jon after resurrecting him which made absolutely no sense.  They should have established some sort of relationship after that, whether positive, neutral or negative.  Season 5 had her try and seduce him, which fails mostly due to him being in mourning for Ygritte.  I was interested in their dynamic as I think that Melisandre may have been planning to replace Stannis with Jon, but would have been thwarted in her efforts to control Jon, who I am sure would have turned on her once he was made aware of her insanity and propensity for human sacrifice.  Furthermore, we have yet to receive an  explanation on the source of her longevity.  S4 showed she doesn't need her necklace to remain young and beautiful so what's the secret? So many more questions about her age and who she really is that have just been hand waved by the show! Additionally, the show has long nerfed Melisandre.   Besides being able to birth shadow demons after being impregnated, her only other powers are....psuedo-immortality? I guess she drank poison that one time too.  But in the books, she could actually set things on fire.  The idea of Melisandre being afraid of Davos is laughable to me.  Another complaint here; Melisandre is the reason Davos is alive, as she saved him from Stannis in S4, which he conveniently ignores (she should have brought that up when he confronted her IMO).  It infuriates me how Stannis is forgiven for his crimes but Melisandre is demonized despite clearly not being a mentally well individual.  I am not saying she is a good person, because she definitely isn't, but she is so dangerously delusional that she has always been acting in ways that she believed were for the greater good (and they weren't obviously).  I am confused about her interaction with Varys...seems like they are just trying to find a way to get rid of her.  "Returning to Westeros to Die"? what? Very sad to see Carice go as she is IMO the best actress in the show and an incredibly beautiful woman as well.  Mel to me is also perhaps the most interesting character, given she's one of the few magically inclined characters we know well (although I'd like to see her backstory explained more).

 

*Why the actual fuck is Jaime still drooling over Cersei? That is beyond nauseating.  Ignoring the character development Jaime goes through is an affront to the way GRRM wrote him.  What made Jaime so interesting is that he's not as monstrous as we originally thought, and that he separates himself from Cersei, who has a poisonous influence on everyone around her.  I really thought that the end of season 6 was signifying that Jaime had finally had enough with her and was going to finally begin acting like book Jaime, but apparently not.  It's a shame because book Jaime is a terrific character and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is a very talented actor who is being wasted.

 

*The cure for greyscale is apparently able to be mastered by a novice.  So why is it banned?

 

*Why is Littlefinger still around? What is the show doing with him? Is he supposed to be the comic relief now? Jesus Christ.  I don't know what the point of Jon warning him about making moves on Sansa was if he was just going to immediately leave her alone with Fingah afterwards.

 

*Cersei asking Ellaria "why did you do that"? made me cringe.  Was that just me or was that a particularly bad piece of dialogue?  As much as I detest Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in the Show (especially because the show has ignored GRRM's characterization of them!) no one deserves to be tortured and it was impossible not to have pity for them in that scene.  In character for Cersei, I admit, as she is quite sadistic and admittedly has a justifiable reason to be enraged at the Dornish women.

 

*I admit that I got emotional when Bran and Sansa reunited.  However, that was quickly ruined by Bran being a creepy little shit.  

 

*Where is Ghost? Are we supposed to just pretend he doesn't exist? Wolves are my favorite animal and Ghost is my favorite Direwolf, so I am hoping he will eventually return.  His absence is still inexplicable and I am sure will not even be addressed when he finally does magically appear when it is deemed convenient by the show.

 

 

That's all I have for now.  Since I'm new to this board, I must ask is there always this much trouble with the site? I frequently have been unable to load pages here and often encounter "Gateway error" or some form of this when trying to access a particular page.  

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I complained in another thread about the ruination of Jaime.

You raise excellent points on Mel. Why did they do the reveal of her being 400 years old then not touch back on this ? Not that I look at spoilers or leaks but it appears she is not coming back ? Idk. Its very disappointing that some conversations don't take place, Jons resurrection ok we saw he didn't want it talked about - but a brief scene between him and Davos explaining why would have been nice.

I learnt not to expect Ghost being a huge part of the show when the cost of CGI around this became an issue, its super disappointing I know. They chose to use that for the Dragons.

Bran returning was such a let down, I went from crying to - wtf ? I don't understand why he needed to mention Sansa's rape, it repulsed me.

I found Cersei's scene with the sand snakes way too long.     

[Cas Stark]

Mel will be back, she just said she was coming back to die in Westeros, and since this is the show's idea of foreshadowing, it's a given that she will reappear in season 8, probably with some Essos deus ex machina magic/army/solution and then will meet Mystique Stark, also known as Arya, and die.  And now we know Varys will die also, because Mel said it.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I'd argue that 3 Starks murdered by 2 Kings of 2 different dynasties (one of whom the Starks served loyally and the other who they actually put on the Throne), one claimant (Stannis) sitting on some pretty valuable knowledge that might have been a big help to Ned until it was way too late and then the other (Renly) abandoning Ned (from the Stark PoV) at the moment he was most needed is a pretty fair reason to decide that one is done with serving the King of the Iron Throne. Not smart, but I'd certainly say not unjustified.

Well, then let the Starks defend the Wall. It is the border of their kingdom now, the Iron Throne and Daenerys have nothing to do with that.

If you don't make concessions you get nothing. That's the reality of politics.

And that's the problem with that crappy dialogue. Jon is supposedly the guy who sees the big picture. But he doesn't. He acts incoherently. He wants help against the common enemy but doesn't give any sign that he wants to be Dany's friend or ally. He doesn't even explain things 'the army of the dead' isn't an explanation. The best cause of action here would have been to give up this crown he wants to have in exchange for a place at Dany's table so that he can then ensure that help is going to go north as soon as possible. And it is not that he wanted that crown in the first place, has any right to it, or is particularly happy with it. The very idea that the Northmen would make a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch their king is pretty much ridiculous. The chances that this is going to happen in the books is very low unless George essentially lobotomizes the Northmen between chapters...

Insisting on a crown and independence prevented an alliance between Robb and the Baratheon brothers, and it is, of course, not helping when you are trying to reach an understanding with Daenerys. Now, they will get the hots for each other and fuck things out but the artificial conflict here remains.

One can only hope that the real Jon is going to learn from his mistakes. His own petty ambitions and issues with the people south of the Wall got him killed back in ADwD. If there is a lesson to be learned from that then that the mission is more important than anything else. Including Arya and Stannis and the Boltons. Yes, Jon is likely going to become the leader of the people fighting against the Others in the North in the wake of Stannis' death (whenever that happens in the books) but he is not going to run around wearing crowns or insisting on Northern independence. He knows they need help. He does not want it from the Boltons, Freys, or Lannisters (and while that's inherently problematic it is sure as hell understandable). Fine. But he has no similar issues with Aegon or Daenerys. So he can ask them for help. Just as he might reach out to the Vale or the Free Cities.

Aegon's arrival should enable him to try to open some sort of dialogue with another faction he has no issues with even before Dany arrives. If there is a faction which is going to stay out the continuing civil wars in Westeros and trying to its best to defend the Wall it will be the North after the Boltons are dealt with (although they might face another major threat in the Weeper's army).

When Dany and Jon finally meet (whatever the context) there is not going to be any bickering and bitching about titles and claims. They will talk with each other like adults, completely unlike the ridiculous fans of those books in online forums...

[Dolorous Gabe]

8 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

I found Cersei's scene with the sand snakes way too long.     

It was way too long and so were a few other scenes this episode. Nothing was gained from such length. There was a lot of tedious, aimless posturing and pontificating. Several times I thought of this.

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, then let the Starks defend the Wall. It is the border of their kingdom now, the Iron Throne and Daenerys have nothing to do with that.

If you don't make concessions you get nothing. That's the reality of politics.

And that's the problem with that crappy dialogue. Jon is supposedly the guy who sees the big picture. But he doesn't. He acts incoherently. He wants help against the common enemy but doesn't give any sign that he wants to be Dany's friend or ally. He doesn't even explain things 'the army of the dead' isn't an explanation. The best cause of action here would have been to give up this crown he wants to have in exchange for a place at Dany's table so that he can then ensure that help is going to go north as soon as possible. And it is not that he wanted that crown in the first place, has any right to it, or is particularly happy with it. The very idea that the Northmen would make a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch their king is pretty much ridiculous. The chances that this is going to happen in the books is very low unless George essentially lobotomizes the Northmen between chapters...

Insisting on a crown and independence prevented an alliance between Robb and the Baratheon brothers, and it is, of course, not helping when you are trying to reach an understanding with Daenerys. Now, they will get the hots for each other and fuck things out but the artificial conflict here remains.

One can only hope that the real Jon is going to learn from his mistakes. His own petty ambitions and issues with the people south of the Wall got him killed back in ADwD. If there is a lesson to be learned from that then that the mission is more important than anything else. Including Arya and Stannis and the Boltons. Yes, Jon is likely going to become the leader of the people fighting against the Others in the North in the wake of Stannis' death (whenever that happens in the books) but he is not going to run around wearing crowns or insisting on Northern independence. He knows they need help. He does not want it from the Boltons, Freys, or Lannisters (and while that's inherently problematic it is sure as hell understandable). Fine. But he has no similar issues with Aegon or Daenerys. So he can ask them for help. Just as he might reach out to the Vale or the Free Cities.

Aegon's arrival should enable him to try to open some sort of dialogue with another faction he has no issues with even before Dany arrives. If there is a faction which is going to stay out the continuing civil wars in Westeros and trying to its best to defend the Wall it will be the North after the Boltons are dealt with (although they might face another major threat in the Weeper's army).

When Dany and Jon finally meet (whatever the context) there is not going to be any bickering and bitching about titles and claims. They will talk with each other like adults, completely unlike the ridiculous fans of those books in online forums...

Jon is Robb's heir in the books, there is a 100% chance that he will be named King in the North eventually, IMO.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon is Robb's heir in the books, there is a 100% chance that he will be named King in the North eventually, IMO.

I don't think/want Rickon to die nor do I think Howland Reed (who controls said will right now) will allow the North to make a king who is neither Eddard Stark's son nor Robb Stark's half-brother. Besides, by the time it comes to this (only after Stannis is dead) Sansa Stark might out in the open, too.

She is not going to be treated in this ridiculous fashion in the books.

But in principle I'm more than sure that Jon doesn't want to be such a crown nor do I think the Northmen will want to have their own independent kingdom in light of the ultimate threat they are facing. Surely they will finally have learned what's going on beyond the Wall by the time it comes to this. Stannis could become some sort of 'King in the North' in the sense that he is a king who is physically in the North and I expect Jon to take over as Stannis' effective heir/second-in-command/whatever - the guy he is closest to and working with to defeat the Others.

But, honestly, what would be the point of having your own king in the face of the threat they are facing. It is just going to create unnecessary problems with the guys down in the South. And they need their help. Jon could just as well only become Lord of Winterfell without wearing a crown, just as Manderly and company plan for Rickon right now.

[madscientist596]

The good:

Tyrion: "You look better at brooding than I do"

Jon met Dany right away!! No cliffhanger.  Much wow.

Jamie sneaks off to Highgarden and captures it (putting aside the whole 'who gives a whip about Casterly Rock').  Traps Unsullied when Magic Jack Sparrow warps into destroy his fleet.  Well played.

"Permission to buzz the walkway"  "Negative Dragonrider the pattern is full" *WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH*  Jon's first intro to the dragons was nice.

Euron in his best Jack Sparrow "Do she like a finger in the bum?"  I lol'd pretty hard at that exchange.  Yes i ts childish and silly, but hey it was fun.  (bonus with the whole 'they just like heads on spikes"--pretty much how I feel about the 'mob' IRL  give them bread and circuses and you can pretty much do as you want--sorry took a bit of a dark path there).

Sansa being large and in charge (even if its over stupid stuff).  At least she wasn't being a backstabber in front of the northern lords.  sheesh that got old.

"I need to talk to Jon" -Bran

RIP Olenna.  

Nice touch on the torture there with the Sand Snake.  My money was on a ser gregor rapefest (sorry).  

I will die here--and so will you --The Red Priestest  I liked that little bit.  Varys seemed to have plot armor of late, but it seems there is a chip.  I also wonder in she will have a role in reforging lightbringer (if it exists in show).  Doesn't quite fit with the lore, but I am just rambling so works for me!

The Bad:

Some people like the Bran 1000 yard stare.  I did not.  More like the 1000 yard cue card reading.

The wedding Bran exposition.  AWKWARD 

Plot from the Rock to infiltrate Casterly Rock.  At least no Nick Cage cameo.  But I did like how Jamie feignted and took his army elsewhere. Tyrion built the cisterns.  I thought he was put in charge of the cisterns (they never flowed better!) .  Just a little too convienient.

Hey look its the next day and Jorah's better. (If you like your maester you can keep him with Obamacare!).  Obvious.

Sam got off with writing scrolls.  WHo didn't call that.

Dany's titles are getting long.  When will she add Queen of the Geats, Swedes and Danes?  

The whole "I'm the queen, bend the knee"  Yeah uh your diplomatic skills.  Might want to polish those up.  Maybe its because I beleive the white walkers are 'real' but Jon comes in, has a real issue, is really genuinely concerned about the issue and she's all 'I'm the rightful heir' pfft that seems Neville Chamberlain stupid.  Also reminded of Ashe from Army of Darkness--"Lady you ain't leading but jack and s*** and Jack just left town (or got sunk but Jack Sparrow).  Tyrion says "Dany cares about her people" Yeah she totally showed it in that throne room exchange.

Davos: "This is Jon Snow"  I know Davos is plain spoken, but his speech about how Jon is King by right could have been written much better without the awkward pauses.

The server is attacked by Wights every monday!  NEED MOAR DRAGONGLASS AT SERVERFARM! (I kid, I kid)

The Ugly

Character Development Bewbs! (watch the honest trailer for Season 5)  Unnecessary boob shot of Cersei.  Look the point of the sex in game of thrones was that the violence, sex, blood, all played a role in how events played out.  This was just cheap cleavage for the boner demographic.

Lannister sex.  Not that its ewww...its more than Jamie (I thought) had seen his sister for what she is.  Maybe that's book Jamie.  Show Jamie is, I dunno what show Jamie is.  Plus the whole scene played out  like cheap porno.  Not that I dislike cheap porno.  But obviously I recognize cheap porn.  And that was a cheap porn scene. (Without the payoff I might add...just sayin)

Casterly Rock thing.  Yeah I had it under bad.  I change my mind and am too lazy to move it.  Just dumb.

Euron the magic warping pirate.  He's (presumably) in the Narrow Sea.  He's at Kings Landing.  His off the coast of Casterly Rock.  This guy must have his own 737 or a fleet of nuclear powered wooden ships cause MAN HE MOVES FAST.  I'm talking Star Trek transporter levels here.  How the hell does he get his ship from KL around the continent.  Thats like Rio to Peru around the Drake Passage.  ("I wonder if he is still using the same wind we are using")

Olenna the magic warping old lady.  I'm in Dragonstone, I'm in Highgarden!  Not as bad as Euron, but why would she go there?  I mean first of all how does she get there.  Not sure how the stormlands are, but the quickest way is presumably land south of KL and go to HG.  Not exactly safe passage when queen psycho wants you dead.  Or do to Dorne and then up the pass.  I guess she took one of those bullet trains.  

Also--Why would she stay in the castle if the Lannister Army shows up.  Presumably one has scouts and you could flee before they show up.  Of course since Yara didn't beleive in lookouts, perhaps Olenna did believe in scouting (Tyrells were not good at army, perhaps that skipped that whole 'scouting' thing.  Dumb plot show logic at its worst so that Jamie/Olenna confrontation goes off.

Dragons.  Hmm this big ass dragons.  Lets not use them.  I was ok with Tyrion's plan before, but again I changed my mind.  Split your forces and not play your trump card.  What are you French? (If you are french, just say Italian instead sorry).  Let them fly around dragonstone. Even if you want to 'save' the people  Wouldn't it be handy to show up and say 'uh dragons!!! Member the conquest?  I MEMBER!! YOU ALL BURNED!!!  I got 3!!  Might be more persuasive than getting you butt handed to you by Euron on the high sees with his superships.  Bet a bunch of soldiers would say--yeah uh...not fighting that.  And if they did---DRAGON SNACKS!!

 

 

[madscientist596]

24 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

It was way too long and so were a few other scenes this episode. Nothing was gained from such length. There was a lot of tedious, aimless posturing and pontificating. Several times I thought of this.

HEY THATS MY LINE!!!!! Lol

[The Golden Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think/want Rickon to die nor do I think Howland Reed (who controls said will right now) will allow the North to make a king who is neither Eddard Stark's son nor Robb Stark's half-brother. Besides, by the time it comes to this (only after Stannis is dead) Sansa Stark might out in the open, too.

She is not going to be treated in this ridiculous fashion in the books.

But in principle I'm more than sure that Jon doesn't want to be such a crown nor do I think the Northmen will want to have their own independent kingdom in light of the ultimate threat they are facing. Surely they will finally have learned what's going on beyond the Wall by the time it comes to this. Stannis could become some sort of 'King in the North' in the sense that he is a king who is physically in the North and I expect Jon to take over as Stannis' effective heir/second-in-command/whatever - the guy he is closest to and working with to defeat the Others.

But, honestly, what would be the point of having your own king in the face of the threat they are facing. It is just going to create unnecessary problems with the guys down in the South. And they need their help. Jon could just as well only become Lord of Winterfell without wearing a crown, just as Manderly and company plan for Rickon right now.

I am not really bothered by the North staying independent. I a more bothered that Jon's arguments for why Dany should join him was just so lackluster. Never mind the fact that he could have at the least said "if you will not march with us and defend all the realms of men from this greater threat then at least let us mine Dragonglass/obsidian for use as weapons against the coming army of the dead, your Grace". While the North may not have any personal beef with Dany, they still got beef with her family and the Iron Throne. in world it has been what...a little over 20 years since Robert's Rebellion? In not even 15 years after that Starks and Northerners are once again being killed by those on the Iron Throne and this time getting murdered through the breaking of guest right at a wedding. SO the North wants nothing really do with the south. Of course the Show!North is nothing like the Book!North who actually invoke the words "The North Remembers!".

Jon and the North is basically saying "Listen miss, we really don't want to fuck wit ya like this, but there is a massive ass army of the dead coming from Beyond the wall. now some folks would be like we can handle this ourselves, but I seen the army of the dead, I fought the army of the dead, and after the battle was over...I saw their leader raise the dead up like ain't no thang at all. So listen, we will not and cannot bend the knee but for real if you do not come help us with this then you will have to deal with an even bigger army of the dead later."

Of course I think the real problem is that Show!Jon lacks the fire and resolve of Book!Jon. At least Book!Jon would have made sure Ghost stayed beside him after being resurrected!  

[SansaJonRule]

1 hour ago, Lord Godric said:

Yeah, I agree. I thought that, from what we saw in the first two episodes, we were finally going to get the second half of his redemption arc, but every single time he keeps going back to Cersei, and they've just entirely ruined his character. I was thinking that he was going to "learn from his mistake" meaning not just do what Cersei wants him to do, but we haven't seen that yet. I imagine we will see it eventually but it'll be too late. 

I agree as well.  I was so hoping when he came home and saw that Cersei's actions caused their last child to kill himself that he would really come around.  The only difference since he met Brienne is that even though Cersei still has the ring through his nose is that now he is obviously conflicted.  Broken character indeed.