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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion


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16 hours ago, Spaßvogel said:

 

Again, our group found itself just laughing in disbelief at this episode. The amount of warping around the planet by Euron's ships, Jon's ships, Jamie's troops, there just aren't feasible ways to move those distances.  My hope for the books is that George has a much more elegant plan in place for these events, but at this point, who knows? 

Plus, Tyrion really sucks at planning attacks.

How many days did it take Jaime to march to High Garden, Jon to sail to Dragonstone, and Euron's ships to sail where they sailed? Can you point me to the scene I missed?

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On 7/31/2017 at 10:25 PM, WSmith84 said:

Of course Jon will have to make concessions and cannot expect Dany to help him without some payback. Obviously, the dialogue in the show is atrocious and Jon's motives for refusing to kneel are weak (even though he actually has 1 reason not). That doesn't change the fact that, back in the first book (which I was talking about in reference to your comment), the Northerners actually had fair justification for deciding to split from the Iron Throne, even if it wasn't sensible.

The only reason Jon really has for not kneeling in exchange for help is that his lords might not accept it. He's a newly-made King, and he can be unmade just as easily. His lords didn't even want him to go to Dragonstone; I'm not sure they'd accept him bowing to a foreign invader (and after being LC in the show Jon should be more wary of making unpopular decisions, even when they are right). That isn't mentioned in the show, obviously, either because Jon doesn't want to let Dany know how delicate his position is or because the writing is poor. I'm betting on the latter, but you never know.

I hope to God there isn't a romance between these two brewing. I think I'll vomit if I have to watch that, although I dread reading it far more. And I've mentioned it before, but shouldn't Show Jon be a little worried about having died? You know, in relation to his reproductive system and such? We get no real indication on the show if the resurrected dead are normal or not (which, sadly, is probably an indicator that they aren't affected at all).

I’ve never been a hardcore Northern independence person. But, I can understand Jon not kneeling right away. I mean if I were Jon, I’d want:

1. There to be clear and unambiguous agreement about who was primarily responsible for RR, cough, cough, Aerys.

2. I’d want there to be clear agreement that such a monarch like Aerys can rightly be removed from power.

3. I’d reject any idea that House Stark or the North is bound to any royal house, forever, no matter the circumstances or conduct of the royal house.

4. I’d want to make sure that Dany wasn’t prone to being anything like Aerys.

5. Plus selling the idea to the Northern lords would be helpful.

So yeah, I think there are good reasons for Jon just not to flop on the ground the moment he meets Dany.

Is the dialogue between them ham fisted and corny.? Sure it is. But, ya, know, they got to build up the sexual tension.

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Last night I sat in front of the tv getting ready to watch the episode, and decided I just can't do it. I just have no desire to watch this.

I don't care what happens to any of the characters, because there are no meaningful logical consequences for anything that happens. So there is no story, just a bunch of unconnected scenes, that feature mostly poorly written dialogue. 

I am truly done with this show.

 

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9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Of course Jon will have to make concessions and cannot expect Dany to help him without some payback. Obviously, the dialogue in the show is atrocious and Jon's motives for refusing to kneel are weak (even though he actually has 1 reason not). That doesn't change the fact that, back in the first book (which I was talking about in reference to your comment), the Northerners actually had fair justification for deciding to split from the Iron Throne, even if it wasn't sensible.

Not really, that is a stupid move. Robert, Ned, and Jon Arryn were friends. Hoster Tully was their ally, too. They stood together against the Mad King and then some drunken Umber pushes them into a suicidal situation.

The North and the Riverlands cannot stand against the Lannister-Baratheons or the Baratheon brothers. Renly and Stannis have claim to the Iron Throne, and they are not going to accept this crap.

And even back then it is quite clear that Mance Rayder is preparing for an invasion beyond the Wall. He is there. The Northmen cannot expect any help whatsoever against that danger. If Stannis - a man Robb fucked as much as Joffrey - hadn't come to their aid Mance Rayder would now sit in Winterfell.

Not to mention the Greyjoy betrayal. That wouldn't have come if Robb had stood with either Renly or Stannis because Balon would have known that they would come for him then.

But even if we say they were justified back then - the smart move now would be to return into the fold. Make the first step.

9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

The only reason Jon really has for not kneeling in exchange for help is that his lords might not accept it. He's a newly-made King, and he can be unmade just as easily. His lords didn't even want him to go to Dragonstone; I'm not sure they'd accept him bowing to a foreign invader (and after being LC in the show Jon should be more wary of making unpopular decisions, even when they are right). That isn't mentioned in the show, obviously, either because Jon doesn't want to let Dany know how delicate his position is or because the writing is poor. I'm betting on the latter, but you never know.

I'd say it is bad writing. Those lords are just mouthpieces in that show, and treating them as real people (like we can George's characters because they are much more realistically depicted and written so that they react like real people to the things around them) simply makes no sense. Even more so with that ridiculously inconsistent writing.

If the Northmen don't like what their king is doing they could defend themselves and their lands without him. Jon doesn't owe these people anything.

9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I hope to God there isn't a romance between these two brewing. I think I'll vomit if I have to watch that, although I dread reading it far more.

How so? That these two end up in bed together (and most likely together on the Iron Throne, or at least one of the two) was always as clear as summer snow. Is it the incest thing? It is just aunt and niece. That is perfectly legal in quite a few countries. Odd, but perfectly legal.

9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

And I've mentioned it before, but shouldn't Show Jon be a little worried about having died? You know, in relation to his reproductive system and such? We get no real indication on the show if the resurrected dead are normal or not (which, sadly, is probably an indicator that they aren't affected at all).

Well, that plot element is completely irrelevant in the show. We may get some sort of prophecy element that the hero guy or the ones playing roles in the fight, etc. can come back from the dead to explain it somewhat but aside from that this is going to mean literally nothing.

I mean, we have seen that already back last season when Jon - who just came back from the dead - was afraid to die again in the fight against Ramsay. How stupid a plot line was that? If death and resurrection is going to do anything to you then change your view of life and death. It should have some sort of effect or relevance to the plot. That's why it is in the books.

But here - nothing. Jon's death and resurrection was only included in the show for the shock value. They either don't understand the plot element and/or don't care about it. That's why this thing is dropped and disappears as quickly as possible. What the point of bringing it up in the talk with Dany was supposed to accomplish is completely unclear. They don't explain who those dead are that are walking and then they want to sell her the idea that Jon has been dead, too. Right.

By the way - the idea that Jon could be an important ally of Daenerys' in her own battles also makes no sense. How many men has he left? The Vale men? And the 'moral support' of whoever survived the battle against Ramsay? And then he has the wildlings. By show logic that might be many men but in the books that's not going to amount to much.

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29 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And then suddenly he stops and gives the psychedelic mushroom monologue - everything is good and bad and here and there and everywhere always in your minnnnnddddd... And who knows what that blank look on her face was meant to be, you never can tell.

(If only there was some groovy music...)

His speech described the s7 so far: all motives unclear, alliances make no sense, things happen and make no sense either. * groovy music *

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14 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I am a young member of the fan base here and I don't watch the show at all, or ever really. I watched it the other night when I was at my friends house and he put it on. This also stood out to me as not correct for both the book source and what it seems Jon should have been saying in that episode. Anyway, this whole idea of Jon not caring about his ancestors is like a modern idea. Lots of other people at my college think like this.

Jon in the books wants to be part of a family and have an identity other than bastard. Jon was trained in the castle along side Robb. Jon knows what Robb knew and what is taught to young men. This seemed very out of character for Jon and Daenerys to be saying to each other.

You're right that the scene doesn't make sense for book!Jon, but it doesn't make sense for show!Jon either. And I think you're right that a big part of the problem is that it's a modern intrusion into his character. Show!Dany and show!Tyrion have had similar anachronistically modern attitudes before, but this is the first time they've done it to show!Jon, so it's jarring even if you have been watching all along.

But I do think it's plausible for Jon Snow to not understand the duties of a liege and a vassal. That isn't taught to young men in general, only to young men who are going to be lords. And in many ways, he understands Mance's rulership more than he does Ned's, and his attempts to be like Ned usually lead to bad things.

In fact, I think GRRM is making a point around this. One of the things that inspired him to write a medievalish fantasy was the "and Aragon was a good King and wise" thing: what exactly makes a good King and wise? It's not being the natural heir (Viserys), it's not being educated your whole life for it (Aegon VI), it's not being a living embodiment of your people's traditions (Victarion), it's not even being a generally kind and smart person (Robb). You need to learn how to balance the fact that your advisors generally know better than you with the fact that they don't have the actual burden of leading is crucial. Both Dany and Jon have been learning how to do that the hard way—just as Aegon V did.

The show doesn't seem to have that point at all (in that sense, Victoria is a better adaptation of ASoIaF than GoT is…), but then I'm less and less sure the show has any point for Dany's story or Jon's beyond "aren't these plot twists exciting?"

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On 7/31/2017 at 10:57 PM, Le Cygne said:

His resurrection is a seeeeecret, he's bashful about it, so... Shade of the Lamp brings it up and then they move on.

I can't wait to see the part where Dany goes "eww, I just had sex with a fire wight."

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Stannis - a man Robb fucked as much as Joffrey - hadn't come to their aid Mance Rayder would now sit in Winterfell.

Sorry if I'm wrong. Wasn't Robb trying to get Tywin to chase him in the Westerlands so Stannis could have a shot at taking King's Landing?

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52 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Thanks. I'm glad it's not me who thinks they have wasted Mel (and CVH who is a talented actress). But like another poster said they seem clueless what to do with secondary characters without GRRM's books as a guide. 

 

Davos: established as being obsessively loyal and devoted to Stannis (who honestly never deserved the loyalty of Davos, who is a far better man) and a very moral and noble character. Seems surprisingly undevastated when Mel comes back to the wall alone, and proceeds to interact with her in almost a friendly manner (which was bizzare because he's always hated her). It's been established he loves Shireen deeply but he doesn't remember that until the final episode of the season because....Australia. Now apparently Jon is his new Stannis because....reasons. Oh and he's sworn to kill Mel even though she saved his life (sorry I have to put that in. It irks me as a Mel fanboy haha)

 

Mel: Formerly one of the most fascinating characters on the show her importance and role has been drastically reduced. Apparently the show revealing her (to the viewers. But NO characters) as an old woman made them think she was of no more importance because they apparently just like seeing Carice Van Houten's tits.  Fuck the interesting character though she can't be the sex kitten anymore. (I mean she could be but they're clearly done with using her for their fan service department). Good job D+D. She has been kind of floating uselessly around since she revived Jon. 

 

Littlefinger...The character everyone loves to hate, his scheming and plotting set the whole story in motion. He was a loathsome character always but he was incredibly dangerous and interesting before. Now he's just following Sansa around creepily hoping she doesn't find out he fucked her dad over? A far cry from the Littlefinger from earlier seasons, and he no longer seems to have coherent motives!

 

Theon....apparently his redemption arc was pointless and it's back to a humiliation conga line for him (thanks tv tropes). Shades of Jaime here in that the show ignores important character development completely, effectively wasting everyone's time. 

 

Varys....Basically became Tyrion's sidekick for a while which was incredible bizzare for someone who has read the books. Varys is far more menacing than the show has shown in quite some time and at this point seems like a harmless (albeit somewhat scheming) old man. His motivations are also muddy but that could be intentional. 

 

 

to the bolded OMG yes. I agree with all you said.

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15 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Dude if you think it's not disgusting to fuck your aunt I don't know what to tell you. 

If jon and Dany do marry *shudder* their kids could turn out really messed up. 

More 'messed up' than 98% of the characters in the show or more 'messed up' than Dany whose parents were brother and sister?

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9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I can't wait to the part where Dany goes "eww, I just had sex with a fire wight."

Ha ha ha. He's got to be shooting blanks, otherwise the dead would be multiplying on their own. Let's not say that too loudly, next thing you know there will be the swells of epic music for the wight orgy.

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Just now, Ice Walker said:

Sorry if I'm wrong. Wasn't Robb trying to get Tywin to chase him in the Westerlands so Stannis could have a shot at taking King's Landing?

Yeah, but without any sort of formal alliance. And Stannis makes it crystal clear to Catelyn that Robb can expect nor mercy from him. No mercy at all. Had he gotten around to it he would have dealt with him as he dealt with Renly and intended to deal with Joffrey.

Robb the Fool thought he could make a peace with Stannis. Perhaps he would have spared his life had he bent the knee but he would have taken Winterfell from the Starks. This is Stannis we are talking about.

Robb never had a chance in this war. He could either keep his crown and die or bent the knee to some other king.

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3 minutes ago, The Knight of Flours said:

More 'messed up' than 98% of the characters in the show or more 'messed up' than Dany whose parents were brother and sister?

Dany is arguably pretty messed up  already and I can easily see her going full on mad queen. 

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1.The whole Lannister abandoning Casterly Rock is stupid. If Euron's fleet was prowling the sunset sea, the Lannister army could have trapped the unsllied between the sea and the castle. Jaime's awful line, "nobody cares about Casterly Rock" is truly baffling. Tywin is rolling in his grave.

2. The Reach has way more men than the Lannisters and they should not have been defeated so easily. Cersei murdered the Reach's liege lord, the queen, and Loras. Even if Tarly defected to Lannisters.....the Reach should still be able to put more men in the field than the Lannisters and their allies.

3. Why wouldn't Dany and Drogon provide air cover for the unsullied attack on Casterly Rock. She could have burned Euron's fleet and planted her standard on CR and burned whatever army Cersei sends against her. Who is writing these episodes?

4. Jon should have offered a marriage to Dany with a quid pro quo......he helps her defeat Cersei while she helps him defeat the Night King. The realm will never rally to face the enemy in the north until Cersei is defeated. This is super obvious.....yet Tyrion or Ser Davos never once suggested it to Dany or Jon

5. Where is Ghost? Why is Jon never with his Direwolf? They show Dany and her dragons every episode now. Can't the Wolves get any love?

6. The Iron Bank is a pinnacle of Braavos, and in the book they do not support slavery. They are the most anti-slavery faction in the books besides Dany and Co. D&D are keeping with their tradition of butchering book characters for the heck of it. See Stannis and Ellaria. I rolled my eyes so hard at the IB scene that I'm still seeing double.

7. Emillia and Kit's acting has seemed off this whole season. I'm in love with Emilia Clark.....I think that she is beautiful......but with that said, she is not a very good actress. Her lines seems wooden and forced. The same goes for Kit. I don't remember them being this bad in Season 6. Lena Headley is bringing it this season. I literally want to punch her in the face whenever she's on the screen. That is good acting.

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Bad things this episode:

* Armor Plate are known in westeros since when? Generations? But luckily Sansa pointed out how to improve them for the winter.

* Littlefinger still talks nonsense

* As mentioned often before: Bran leading the conversation with Sansa in a  most problematic way

* Varys and Melisandre: Their conversation and acting were very good. But where expects Varts to die if not in Westeros? Where is the surprise in this? It is his home for decades.

* The time the Lannisters used to march to Highgarden Olenna used to do  ---- nothing.

* I praised Euron to epsiodes ago for walking the narrow path between being serious and a madman. Too much madman this time.

Surprisingly not much to criticize for the Jon/Daenerys part. But ---- why did Jon arrive in a small boat? I think Dragonstone has a large deepwater port?

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- After the death of Obara Sand, Euron Greyjoy is the most cringe worthy character on the show. I thought he was ok in the previous episode but I take that back.

- Jon-Dany dialogues don't make a lot of sense but, judging from the preview of the next episode, the setup is totally within D&D's capabilities.

- They should just kill Littlefinger and Varys. Two fascinating characters turned to useless dummies.

- If Riverrun could hold a siege for years, I'm sure Highgarden could stand decades with their resources. What happened to the ravens that seem to be faster than emails this season? Olenna could have easily asked for help from Dany.

- Jaime. He was never my favorite character. But, at least he had a character in the books. In the show, they might as well make him loyal to the Mad King.

- Fall of Casterly Rock. Fine, they emptied all the rations and the entire Lannister army. Does that mean the Unsullied can't terrorize/loot/plunder the rest of the Westerlands? Doesn't look like Jaime actually learned from his lessons. He just opened up Cersei's most loyal Kingdom to his enemies. Of course, this is the show. They can't have any repercussions.

- The teleportation of all the armies are annoying. Remember, how scouts, spies and outriders used to be so important in the show. As a wise man once said, the Lord of Plot demands it, a sacrifice of logic must be made.

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41 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Last night I sat in front of the tv getting ready to watch the episode, and decided I just can't do it. I just have no desire to watch this.

I don't care what happens to any of the characters, because there are no meaningful logical consequences for anything that happens. So there is no story, just a bunch of unconnected scenes, that feature mostly poorly written dialogue. 

I am truly done with this show.

 

Same. Everything is so...lifeless now, there's truly no spark to the dialogue or the characters or the scenes. It's like an adaptation of the Sparknotes summary of the books, like shit is just going through the motions.

I feel like when literally anything can happen at any moment without any logic, then nothing matters. Like, D&D want Varys to ride a dragon and take Pyke? Sure, why the fuck not? 

But I'm in too deep to quit. I endured all 3 seasons of Under the Dome, so I'll see this turkey to the bitter end.

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