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Brightroar-will it turn up in ASOIAF?


Free folk Daemon

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Well, who has been or might be going to the ruins of Valeryia? Euron Crow's Eye has bragged about it. Valyria is between Slaver's Bay and Westeros, so if Daenerys EVER sets sail to the 7 Kingdoms, she'd at least pass by. Might she stop in the ancestral homeland? Or might Drogon decide he wanted to visit and just happen to carry her there, possibly on an unrelated trip?

Of equal importance, who might even recognize it? Probably no one who wasn't from Westeros. That would include Euron of course, who has undoubtedly had a hand in plundering Lannisters over the years. Also Tyrion Lannister - if he ever gets hooked up with Daenerys. Or Barristan Selmy. Or Jorah Mormont, if he ever returns to her good graces.

And thirdly, don't the Lannisters come up with dopey names for their blades? "Brightroar"? Is that some kind of joke? Or "Widow's Wail"? "Lion's Tooth"?

We're assuming the Lannister fool who traveled to Valyria to find more swords and never returned actually made it there and lost his sword somewhere on land. His ship could have sunk, and the sword lost in the sea. He could have been taken by pirates, and some sellsword is proudly flashing his Valyrian sword with all the lion decor on it. In which case, it could be anywhere in the known world - which, oddly, increases the chance of the thing turning up.

My guess it, since it (I can't bring myself to repeat its dorky name) was mentioned, it'll return somehow ("Chekhov's sword"). Let's just guess that Magister Illyrio bought it some time back and has it in his collection. Maybe he'll be giving it to Young Griff/Aegon Targaryon VI as a coronation gift.

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Completely baseless just 'cause I like it crackpot time.

Dany promised Jorah a Valeryian steel sword. If Jorah ends up in possession of the lost Lannister sword Brightroar, then we'll have a really interesting Jon/Jaime/Jorah sword swapping triangle. Brightroar was last seen in Valyria and may undergo some sort of change as a result, which would fit the pattern of Longclaw and Ice being changed for their new owners. Maybe Dany and her entourage stop in Valyria on the way to Westeros.

 

Jaime (Brienne) / Jon

Jaime holds Ice, which properly belongs to Jon via Robb’s will.
Yes, I know Brienne technically holds Oathkeeper, but Brienne is Jaime’s honor on Jaime’s mission.
The blade comes with a price...I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe… Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor." Jaime smiled thinly.

Sword Name:
Ice was first seen by the reader executing a man for breaking his oath. Ice’s name was changed to Oathkeeper (and Widow’s Wail). Both Jaime and Jon are deeply conflicted over keeping their oaths to the King’s Guard and the NK respectively. Keeping oaths weighs heavily on both Jaime and Jon. Sworn to Catelyn/Stoneheart, the sword serves a wailing widow.

Alteration:
Ice has been broken in two. The other, smaller sword is Widow’s Wail. Jaime’s current priority is honoring his vow to Catelyn, a wailing widow, via Brienne. It now bears Lions on its pommel.  If Jaime’s commitment to Catelyn continues through a commitment to Stoneheart, then Jaime/Brienne (Oathkeeper) and Stoneheart (a wailing widow) will operate with one purpose, just as Ice used to be a single sword. ASOS Tyrion XXXII: This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Jon’s Targ colors.

Purpose:
Oathkeeper belongs to Lannister, but still serves Stark’s cause via Jaime’s and Brienne’s oaths to Catelyn.

 

Jon / Jorah

Jon now holds Longclaw, a sword belonging to Jorah by birth.

Sword Name:
“Longclaw” is a name which suits both Mormont and Stark. Jon notes: "Wolves have claws, as much as bears."

Alteration:
Longclaw’s hilt has been altered with a wolf.

Purpose:
Longclaw belongs to Stark, but still serves Jeor Mormont’s cause.

 

Jorah / Jaime

Jorah may come into possession of Brightroar, a sword belonging to Jaime by birth. Jorah and Jaime are both publicly criticized for the things I do for love, Jorah for Linesse and Jaime for kingslaying when he chose to save everyone in KL over keeping his oath.

Sword Name:
Brightroar suits both Lion and Bear as they both have fearsome roars.

Alteration:
How may Brightroar be changed to fit the pattern so that it has some trait which hints at its future form? Lightbringer is one option. If not Lightbringer, any sort of change caused by Valyria would involve light and/or fire, both of which are bright. Or maybe it just gets a new hilt but I like the idea that being in Valyria changed it somehow even if it’s not Lightbringer-y.

Purpose:
If the pattern of Longclaw and Ice hold to Brightroar, then how would Brightroar in possession of Jorah still serve Lannister? Tyrion might be the key.

 

What do Jaime, Jorah and Jon have in common? They all struggle with conflicting commitments on a large scale particularly involving oaths through the NW, the KG, and Jorah was beholden to uphold the laws of Westeros of which there are few, but no slavery is one of them. It also seems to circle around Ned. Ned is Jon's father, Ned caught Jaime in the throne room and was the first to condemn him, and Ned was the one who was supposed to prosecute Jorah before he escaped.

AGOT Jon VIII  Maester Aemon said:
"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him..

 

ACOK Catelyn VII
Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

 

ACOK Daenerys I Jorah says:
"The rest . . . I did things it shames me to speak of. For gold. So Lynesse might keep her jewels, her harper, and her cook. In the end it cost me all. When I heard that Eddard Stark was coming to Bear Island, I was so lost to honor that rather than stay and face his judgment, I took her with me into exile. Nothing mattered but our love, I told myself. We fled to Lys, where I sold my ship for gold to keep us."

 

AGOT Bran II Jaime says:
The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

 

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Maybe Euron already has it? He's already whipped out one shiny new toy he found in Valyria (supposedly), maybe hes biding his time whipping out his second. 

Other than that, the only real chance is if Dany's fleet goes super close to the Smoking Sea, and I don't see why they would. 

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Why else would it exist?

I do agree there's a solid chance of it popping up, I just don't know how. It could just be a story of foolish loss. 

I've always presumed it was a standard length sword, the picture in tWoIaF looked pretty standard. 

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47 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Maybe Euron already has it?

It would make a nice gift to Dowager Queen Cersei, if Euron is interested in romancing her. And we know he's been around.

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10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Dany promised Jorah a Valeryian steel sword. If Jorah ends up in possession of the lost Lannister sword Brightroar, then we'll have a really interesting Jon/Jaime/Jorah sword swapping triangle. Brightroar was last seen in Valyria and may undergo some sort of change as a result, which would fit the pattern of Longclaw and Ice being changed for their new owners.

Huh. I like it.

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I'm pretty sure Tyrion will find Brightroar and bring it back to Westeros.

I don't think the fate of Ice is a model for the fate of other swords. I suspect the creation of two swords from Ice is a representation of the story arcs of two characters - maybe Sansa and Arya. Or Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail could be symbolic of Ned and Catelyn. But there are numerous possibilities.

I like @Lollygag's sword-swapping triangle. The giving and receiving of swords is very significant in establishing relationships. Having a sword that belonged to someone else, the way that sword was obtained, restoring a sword that rightfully belongs to someone else, making a sword, the purposes for which the sword was used (combat, trial by combat, a duel, execution, cutting up a rare book, cutting open a pie containing live birds, etc.), and the way the sword is lost or passed along are all very significant. It would be very interesting to see Brightroar come to Tyrion via Ser Jorah. I think this could be an important gesture of peace and alliance.

But I think it's also significant that the sword apparently never belonged to Tywin. Similar to the way that Lady Forlorn was passed to a younger son, apparently Tytos bypassed three sons to give the sword to his fourth son. Gerion is the last custodian of Brightroar. There may be a "my true heir" message in this, and the recipient after Gerion would be the next "true" heir of House Lannister.

Uncle Gerion really liked Tyrion, and encouraged him to show his true nature (a fool and a reader) and to pursue his passion (travel). Uncles are important in ASOIAF - Benjen disappears quickly, but the search for Benjen is a big deal to both Mormont and Jon. I suspect that Brown Ben Plumm will play the uncle role for Daenerys but she may have other symbolic uncles. (I realize that Daenerys and fAegon have no literal uncles - unless Tyrion is one.) I do draw on the GRRM book The Ice Dragon for some of my thinking about uncles in Westeros - there is an important uncle in that story. So the connection between Tyrion and Gerion is one clue that Tyrion will have a Brightroar reunion at some point.

However, part of my belief that Tyrion will obtain Brightroar comes from the belief that King Aerys is his father and Joanna Lannister his mother. "Gerion" also sounds like a derivative of Tar-Gerion. Maybe he is also a secret Targ? Or he knows of Tyrion's true paternity and was protective of a nephew he knew to have royal blood.

I love the name Brightroar for a sword but I think it also has wordplay potential. (You knew that was coming, didn't you?) Boars are associated with kings in ASOIAF. Robert was killed by a boar but he also killed the boar and ordered that it be the main dish at his funeral feast. There is "Boar's Head Festival" symbolism in the feast at the Red Wedding and in Robb Stark's death. Cersei wishes for boar but has to settle for pig when planning a dinner at the Red Keep. If Brightroar can be interpreted as "right boar," it might be a signal to identify the true king. If Tyrion is the son of Aerys, you could make a case that he is the rightful king of Westeros.

Tyrion is also closely associated with Pretty Pig. When Tyrion escaped from slavery and joined the Second Sons, he and Penny left behind Pretty Pig and the dog, Crunch. Tyrion assumed that Pretty Pig would be eaten. But what if the pig managed to escape? A domesticated pig that turns feral quickly becomes what we would identify as a boar. The transformation of a pig into a boar would be an interesting reversal of the ugly duckling allusions in Arya's arc, and it would bring the necessary boar symbolism into Tyrion's arc if he is to be a contender for the Iron Throne.

Another piece of evidence is that Tywin gives swords to Jaime and Joffrey, but he pointedly (ha!) does not give a sword to Tyrion. In fact, he tells Tyrion to instead take a sword from King Robert's collection and says that Uncle Gerion gave Robert a nice one as a wedding gift that Tyrion might want. In a way, Tywin is giving Tyrion permission to be the heir of both King Robert and of the Lannister sword.

(Aside: We are told that King Robert appointed Ser Ilyn the King's Justice as a wedding gift for Tywin. It was Robert's wedding, but wedding gifts are always important in ASOIAF, and Ser Ilyn is strongly associated with the sword Ice. And there is a "just Ice" and "Justice" pun. So this might explain why Tywin feels justified in taking and remaking the sword Ice - symbolically "just Ice" was given to Tywin by the king.)

But it is also significant that no one has given Tyrion a sword - he has to take it. Very King Arthur, don't you think? When we see Tyrion going into battle, he scrounges his own armor from a discard pile, finding bits and pieces that fit and small odd weapons that suit his stature. It's sort of like the fool's motley he sews for himself after he goes swimming and is reborn from the Rhoyne River. Ilyrio kind of provides the clothes, Jon Connington orders Tyrion to make the outfit and Septa Lemore helps Tyrion to sew, but mostly Tyrion does the work himself just as he - at almost the same moment - writes a book about dragon lore.

Similarly, Jon Snow finds the dragonglass cache and then makes his own "ugly" dagger with one of the blades in the bundle. Someone (Benjen or Qhorin, I suspect) put the bundle where Jon would find it, Mormont (I believe) knew it was there and made sure conditions were right for Jon to go get it; the direwolf Ghost led him to it and started him digging. Compare that dragonglass cache to Tyrion's motley outfit and the people who help him make it.

I suspect we will see something similar when Tyrion finds Brightroar. But a wild boar will lead him to the place where he will find the sword. It might not literally be Pretty Pig, but it could be a symbolic transformation of Pretty Pig into the right boar.

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

But I think it's also significant that the sword apparently never belonged to Tywin. Similar to the way that Lady Forlorn was passed to a younger son, apparently Tytos bypassed three sons to give the sword to his fourth son. Gerion is the last custodian of Brightroar. There may be a "my true heir" message in this, and the recipient after Gerion would be the next "true" heir of House Lannister.

Uncle Gerion really liked Tyrion, and encouraged him to show his true nature (a fool and a reader) and to pursue his passion (travel).

I'm reminded that Tywin hated Tytos and was so embarrassed by him that he modeled the Lannisters after the Targs instead, perhaps meaning that Tywin didn't want to consider himself a Lannister, and that Tytos didn't care for Tywin's views. It may have been Gerion who Tytos felt embodied true Lannister traits. Gerion encouraged Tyrion to read and be a fool which sounds more in line with Lann the Clever than Tywin. Being clever often involves "fooling" people, and being underestimated is a huge advantage in fooling someone.

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

However, part of my belief that Tyrion will obtain Brightroar comes from the belief that King Aerys is his father and Joanna Lannister his mother. "Gerion" also sounds like a derivative of Tar-Gerion. Maybe he is also a secret Targ? Or he knows of Tyrion's true paternity and was protective of a nephew he knew to have royal blood.

I'm leaning against Tyrion being a secret Targ in favor of the secret Targ hints being more about how the Lannister kids were raised more like Targs than Lannisters. But if Tyrion is really a secret Targ, then being a true Lannister instead of Tywin's Lannisters who were wanna-be Targs would be a parallel to Jon, who is not a Stark, but still the Starkiest of the Stark kids. I'm half inclined to think that Gerion is only in hiding, playing at his own game.

Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose.

I interpret this not as a statement about Gerion's jokester nature, about him really not liking to lose. He won't play if he can't win and he couldn't win at Tywin's game. I suspect he disappeared to play the game in a way that he could win in true Lann the Clever fashion by clever fooling and tricking.

 

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

But I think it's also significant that the sword apparently never belonged to Tywin. Similar to the way that Lady Forlorn was passed to a younger son, apparently Tytos bypassed three sons to give the sword to his fourth son. Gerion is the last custodian of Brightroar. There may be a "my true heir" message in this, and the recipient after Gerion would be the next "true" heir of House Lannister.

This, uh, isn't right.  At all.  Tommen II loses Brightroar when he travels to the ruins of Valyria looking for more magical goodies to scoop up.  Gerion Lannister outfits a ship and goes to Valyria looking to find it (which is pretty stupid in it's own right... the Smoking Sea is HUGE, it's much worse odds than finding a needle in a haystack).

4 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect that Brown Ben Plumm will play the uncle role for Daenerys but she may have other symbolic uncles.

Brown Ben Plumm's time meaning anything to Daenerys is over; he may have been one of the three betrayals, but more importantly, he taught her not to trust.

His role in the story is to be a light mirror to the Tattered Prince - all the Slaver's Bay sellswords are meant to represent the worst of the mercenary lifestyle.  The Tattered Prince is a devil, making faustian bargains.  Brown Ben Plumm is the manifestation of Tyrion's desire for vengeance.  Bloodbeard just wants to sack a city - they're all vultures, causing and living off the fighting and greed in a self-perpetuating cycle.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Another piece of evidence is that Tywin gives swords to Jaime and Joffrey, but he pointedly (ha!) does not give a sword to Tyrion. In fact, he tells Tyrion to instead take a sword from King Robert's collection and says that Uncle Gerion gave Robert a nice one as a wedding gift that Tyrion might want. In a way, Tywin is giving Tyrion permission to be the heir of both King Robert and of the Lannister sword.

This goes against everything that Tywin stands for.  He gives swords to Jaime and Joffrey because giving a sword is a sign of inheritance; it's passing down a family heirloom.  Giving a sword is a legitimating symbol, which is the one thing Tywin won't do, because he hates Tyrion.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Ser Ilyn is strongly associated with the sword Ice.

No he isn't.  I don't think you know what "strong association" means.  It's like saying Margaery is associated with meat pies because we're told she occasionally buys them from street vendors.  Ice is associated with Starks, and melting it down is Tywin's way of saying "fuck you" to the people he thinks insulted his family.

 

Brightroar is gone.  The whole reason it's in the story is to help underline Tywin's desperate insecurity about his family and his overwhelming desire to violently purge anyone who ever dares question him or the Lannister name.  Valyrian steel swords are a symbol of ancestry and achievement, and Tywin's whole thing is that despite having all this in spades, he's still insecure.  Hence his desire to buy one (which no one will sell) and his extremely petty, but in character, decision to melt down Ice, taken from an unjustly murdered foe, because it expunges his family's shame and transforms it into a new Lannister legacy.

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

This, uh, isn't right.  At all.  Tommen II loses Brightroar when he travels to the ruins of Valyria looking for more magical goodies to scoop up.  Gerion Lannister outfits a ship and goes to Valyria looking to find it (which is pretty stupid in it's own right... the Smoking Sea is HUGE, it's much worse odds than finding a needle in a haystack).

You're right about this. I conflated the wedding gift from Gerion to King Robert and Gerion's search for Brightroar, making too much of a leap to thinking that Gerion possessed Brightroar. The symbolism still works for me, even if Tytos didn't give the sword to Gerion.

Granted, Tywin is not openly anointing Tyrion as his preferred heir or his hope for a Lannister king when he tells Tyrion to get a sword elsewhere. I'm sorry if I was unclear about that. Many, many characters in ASOIAF say one thing on the surface but undermine their own goals or hopes by doing something else in the subtext. I enjoy literary irony, so I relish Tywin telling Tyrion to take a sword that had belonged to King Robert and Gerion.

We do not see the rest of the symbols in the same way, however. Since there's no point in arguing, I'll just make two small points: there is very strong symbolism around Tywin and winter, so his coveting of the sword Ice is part of that larger motif. Also Margaery buys meat pies because she is being compared to Arya in her Cat of the Canals phase. (Her role in opening the pigeon pie at Joffrey's wedding feast is also associated with Arya, who was supposed to get part of a capon from Weese, the servant at Harrenhal. I compared the death of Weese to the death of Joffrey somewhere a few months back, but I don't remember which thread.) I know already that you will disagree with me, but I am comfortable in my reading of the evidence presented by the author.

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Brightroar is gone.  The whole reason it's in the story is to help underline Tywin's desperate insecurity about his family and his overwhelming desire to violently purge anyone who ever dares question him or the Lannister name.  Valyrian steel swords are a symbol of ancestry and achievement, and Tywin's whole thing is that despite having all this in spades, he's still insecure.  Hence his desire to buy one (which no one will sell) and his extremely petty, but in character, decision to melt down Ice, taken from an unjustly murdered foe, because it expunges his family's shame and transforms it into a new Lannister legacy.

Yeah but Valyrian steel swords are also magical swords created by secret methods by a fire based magic dragon riding civilisation, and a horde of magical ice zombies are descending on the planet to end all existence, and this is a fantasy series.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

We do not see the rest of the symbols in the same way, however. Since there's no point in arguing, I'll just make two small points: there is very strong symbolism around Tywin and winter, so his coveting of the sword Ice is part of that larger motif. Also Margaery buys meat pies because she is being compared to Arya in her Cat of the Canals phase. (Her role in opening the pigeon pie at Joffrey's wedding feast is also associated with Arya, who was supposed to get part of a capon from Weese, the servant at Harrenhal. I compared the death of Weese to the death of Joffrey somewhere a few months back, but I don't remember which thread.) I know already that you will disagree with me, but I am comfortable in my reading of the evidence presented by the author.

I honestly don't think there is a deeper significance to the things Margaery buys, except to show that she (and the Tyrells in general) understand the concept of soft power much better than the Lannisters, and it in turn serves them much better than the Lannister ruthlessness does Cersei & Tywin.  I think if there was supposed to be a comparison made there, it would (a) serve a point, and (b) be juxtaposed more deftly with Arya's Braavos adventures

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Yeah but Valyrian steel swords are also magical swords created by secret methods by a fire based magic dragon riding civilisation, and a horde of magical ice zombies are descending on the planet to end all existence, and this is a fantasy series.

None of which is relevant to anything.  Why bother wasting your time to type it?

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51 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

None of which is relevant to anything.  Why bother wasting your time to type it?

That this is a fantasy series and there's a long lost special magical sword with fire properties out there and an impending big bad ice enemy is all the relevant information anyone should need to be able to understand the sword is on the way.

But you may be right in that I shouldn't bother wasting my time pointing this out, as I suppose anyone who hasn't got it won't get it.

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That this is a fantasy series and there's a long lost special magical sword with fire properties out there and an impending big bad ice enemy is all the relevant information anyone should need to be able to understand the sword is on the way.

But you may be right in that I shouldn't bother wasting my time pointing this out, as I suppose anyone who hasn't got it won't get it.

Ahahahahhahahaha.  I've never met anyone who so completely failed to grasp the point of this series as you.  GRRM is very explicitly out to deconstruct those tropes!  The magic sword, the hidden hero who cruises to a throne and a beautiful princess... these are the things GRRM hates, the things he thinks have become lazy and routine among fantasy series in general.  He thinks modern fantasy has become too easy, that pulling the sword from the stone and everyone calling you king is overplayed and, even in the context of magical fantasy, unrealistic.  Hence why his protagonists struggle for what they get, and the characters like Quentyn or fAegon have or are bound to fail; these guys represent the traditional narrative, the questing prince or hidden king learning among the common people.  And they die for it, because being a hero is hard and requires sacrifice and effort, the kind of sacrifice and effort they haven't and don't put in.

Secondly, Valyrian swords, for all they are "magic" are quite prosaic, and we know their qualities.  Don't need to be sharpened.  Very lightweight for their strength.  Etc.  To think Brightroar is Lightbringer is pretty silly.  Lightbringer is a plot device, and don't necessarily need to be interpreted literally; personally I think the dragons are Lightbringer.  

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