Fearodh

How did Cersei become smart?

34 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, SerMudz said:

Yeah but it's made clear that Cersei had nothing to do with the Lannister's plan in this episode - Jaime was responsible for all that and got his inspiration from what happened to him at the Whispering Wood. I'd say what's happening is less about showing Cersei as being unrealistically smart and more about showing Jaime as being a far more adept commander and strategist than anyone expected he would be, since he's always been so reckless in the past. But that was when he had his sword hand and only cared about getting in the thick of the combat. Now he's using his head.

Yes re reading things i agree now that its not all Cersei, but its the unrealistic shiift of power that stumped me. Daenerys shear power of her massive army and three dragons left Cersei backed into a corner, with no real plan, no massive army, no money and to be fair about ready to be killed. 

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11 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I totally agree that she is capable of things that couldnt be imagined. Ive never classed her as stupid but shes always done things without thought, straight forward murder. But now shes sacked high garden, predicted the unsullied sacking of casterly rock then to trap them their with eurons fleet. Its just the shear extreme shift of power from Daenerys to Cersei all of a sudden. Shes unrealistically pulling out all the stops.

True but jaime and euron seem to be responsible for most of the success. Jaime was the one who planned the assault and got the tarly forces to join them which makes them look alot better. The only thing cersei has done is let people who know how to do things take care of the problems. I think the iron bank is playing her. Also I think part of this is that dany was doing everything she could to put bloodshed to a minimum and it has come back to bite her.

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42 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Yes re reading things i agree now that its not all Cersei, but its the unrealistic shiift of power that stumped me. Daenerys shear power of her massive army and three dragons left Cersei backed into a corner, with no real plan, no massive army, no money and to be fair about ready to be killed. 

well if she listens to tyrion and missandei those dragons will never be used on a battlefield. Dany has to ride one of them to use them in battle and yet they advise against it. WTF if people saw a dragon they would break and run and alot of people don't believe she has them. Remember in the scene where arya meets hot pie and those two men discuss that. They thought it was cersei trying to scae them. And in terms of "one arrow can end it all by killing dany" just give her heavy armor. And this is due to dany being soft on the battlefield.

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5 hours ago, SerMudz said:

Yeah but it's made clear that Cersei had nothing to do with the Lannister's plan in this episode - Jaime was responsible for all that and got his inspiration from what happened to him at the Whispering Wood. I'd say what's happening is less about showing Cersei as being unrealistically smart and more about showing Jaime as being a far more adept commander and strategist than anyone expected he would be, since he's always been so reckless in the past. But that was when he had his sword hand and only cared about getting in the thick of the combat. Now he's using his head.

You're absolutely right.  The military part is all Jaime, while the IBB negotiation is Cersei.  I do think it helps that Jaime knows his brother well and guessed that he would go after CR.  

Book Cersei is a little cartoonish in her stupidity in the later books (as compared to the woman who for 14 years successfully passed of her children as Robert's and outsmarted Ned Stark) so I do like that she's smarter in the show.

Plus, the fact that Cersei has intelligence and some experienced people on her side makes it more likely that Dany will be forced to trust Jon and Davos for some military expertise--which is where the story needs to go.

 

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Honestly, because its TV. What drama would bring us to watch this series if Danny overthrow westeros predictably? She had everything in her hand and all she had to do was show up with the biggest army, a ton of allies and three huge dragons. But, that would be too predictable, and boring. To bring drama and suspense, the bad guy have to have everything going their way and have Danny as the underdog. Kinda like the battle of the bastards, or john snow revival. This makes us addicted to this series, watching the good guys be underdogs, and come out on top.

 

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On Invalid Date at 8:42 AM, ummester said:

I find it deliciously hilarious that Tyrion is proving to be such a pathetic strategist and hand. But, when you think about it, it also kind of makes sense. Tyrion was a good schemer as hand in King's landing, he played that game well - but his battle strategy was effectively blow them up and hold the fort. And, as valiant as he was, he still would have lost the fort if not for his dad, whom he shot.

I partly disagree considering show-Tyrion, I totally disagree considering book-Tyrion: also in military terms Tyrion was brilliant in the past. Only few indications of that in the show, but nonetheless. And, again much better described in the books: Cersei was utterly predictable and far from brilliant in Military Terms, until, well until show-Season 7. Thes just removed 50 points of IQ from Tyrion and gave it to Cersei.

Let me give some details, based on the books.

The defense of KL when Stannis marched onto it was just brilliant. The chain, the wildfire moved completely outside teh City (Cersei intended to use it inside the walls on catapults). Tyrion sharply analyzed the situation in the Riverlands, when Cersei complained, that Tywin should get back from Harrenhal to defend KL, but Tyrion told her to look twice and that Tywin could come any time in a short time to help in KL.

Unfortunately in the books only: Tyrion was a brilliant cevasse game Player, he analyzed correctly weaknesses in the siege and defense of Mereen.

Had they kept Tyrions IQ on the initial level, he would have outwitted Cersei easily: Knowing that Cersei - when she felt threatened personally - tended to panic and draw all her forces togehter just to protect herself. So, just flying the Dragons over KL (no breathing of fire, would have been necessary) would have been sufficient to make Cersei reinforce troops in KL at the cost of giving up any defense outside KL.

THAT was Cersei's main military weakness, and Tyrion knew very well about it. But I admit: as D&D they never cared to show this layer of Cersei's personality in the show in the seasons before (when they still had GRRM's writing at hand to follow), and maybe even never understood this. So why bother with it now?

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21 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I partly disagree considering show-Tyrion, I totally disagree considering book-Tyrion: also in military terms Tyrion was brilliant in the past. Only few indications of that in the show, but nonetheless. And, again much better described in the books: Cersei was utterly predictable and far from brilliant in Military Terms, until, well until show-Season 7. Thes just removed 50 points of IQ from Tyrion and gave it to Cersei.

Let me give some details, based on the books.

The defense of KL when Stannis marched onto it was just brilliant. The chain, the wildfire moved completely outside teh City (Cersei intended to use it inside the walls on catapults). Tyrion sharply analyzed the situation in the Riverlands, when Cersei complained, that Tywin should get back from Harrenhal to defend KL, but Tyrion told her to look twice and that Tywin could come any time in a short time to help in KL.

Unfortunately in the books only: Tyrion was a brilliant cevasse game Player, he analyzed correctly weaknesses in the siege and defense of Mereen.

Had they kept Tyrions IQ on the initial level, he would have outwitted Cersei easily: Knowing that Cersei - when she felt threatened personally - tended to panic and draw all her forces togehter just to protect herself. So, just flying the Dragons over KL (no breathing of fire, would have been necessary) would have been sufficient to make Cersei reinforce troops in KL at the cost of giving up any defense outside KL.

THAT was Cersei's main military weakness, and Tyrion knew very well about it. But I admit: as D&D they never cared to show this layer of Cersei's personality in the show in the seasons before (when they still had GRRM's writing at hand to follow), and maybe even never understood this. So why bother with it now?

I agree book Tyrion is much smarter than show Tyrion, but also think he is a bit overrated in either case. The main book element (and season 1-4 element) that makes him seem smart are his quips - just like Olenna. He never, in books or show, felt as strategically smart with war matters as Tywin did.

Re the defense of Kings Landing - Tyrion had the upper hand. He had wildfire and he was already in the city - Stannis had to approach by boat and try and breach, he had no other option. Just because Tyrion made better decisions than Cersie doesn't make him as smart as Tywin may have been with the same defence.

Basically, I think it is exactly GRRMs dialogue that made Tyrion an enjoyable character - and that was more witty than smart. But, take that dialogue away, and I think just how overrated the character is is exposed.

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On 7/31/2017 at 3:00 AM, Fearodh said:

I al really puzzled by her miraculous transformation. Since her walk of atonement she has done A LOT of good choices.

I mean in the past she created blunder after blunder, in the books even more than in the show. She gave power to the High Sparrow, managed to piss off her Tyrrell "partners" really well etc.

And now?

She blows up the sept. Even though their son kills himself over it, she keeps Jamie at her side. She brings Mad Man Euron into Team Lannister and is super successful with it. Even though he pisses off Jamie, he still stays at her side. She develops a weapon against dragons. She brings Tarly into Team Lannister although he is from the Reach and sworn to house Tyrrell. She anticipates the move against CR and binds the Unsullied there, meanwhile crushing Highgarden and she convinces the Iron Bank to back AFTER ALL she has done before.

I do enjoy her current streak of success as Dany came with massive power to Westeros and this kinda balances the map. Yet if it weren't for Cerseis many blunders, she would never have been in such a shit position. What are your thoughts on this?

Since Cersie's children are dead, she has no vulnerabilities. She is no longer balancing decisions with how it will impact her children. So she can be utterly ruthless and cunning.

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On 8/1/2017 at 2:24 AM, Aderyn said:

Yes, she has always been clever and able to manipulate people and situations. However, while she often seems unpredictable and makes irrational choices, these are more often than not related to her children. But now that her kids are all gone, she doesn't have much left to lose, except her own life and Jaime's. I think that gave her the ability to act more in cold blood than before.

However, she still is (and will always be) far from such cold masterminds as her father Tywin.

 

I attribute Cersei's recent success to (1) her patronage of Qyburn; who has taken over Varys' Little Bird spy network, engineered the destruction of the Sept of Baelor, revived the dead Gregor to terrify just about everyone, and has invented a weapon that can at the very least wound and probably kill a dragon; (2) the naval expertise of Euron Greyjoy, who is, for the moment, eating out of Cersei's hand and will at least for a bit longer (hopefully Cersei realizes that it would be a total disaster to marry Euron); and who has destroyed most of Yara & Theon's armada as well as the Martell ships; (3) the loyalty of Jaime, who is an experienced military leader and can command the remnants of the Lannister forces and suborn the loyalty and troops of Randyl Tarly; and (4) funds/support from the Iron Bank.  

It takes a fairly intelligent person to find/recruit skilled advisors and commanders.  However, I think Cersei is on a quick road to self-destruction and things will soon blow up in her face.  She's now indulging herself openly; almost never appearing without a wine glass in her hand, and throwing discretion, and closed doors, out the window when it comes to having sex with her brother - there's only so long that various people will put up with an alcoholic who's turned her sibling into her consort.  Euron will take advantage of any weakness or uncertainty that Cersei shows, and might be able to take the Iron Throne from her if he has enough men of his own and Jaime/Lannister troops are out of town.  Plus, Early Success + Cersei = Hubris and Disaster...

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I feel that Tyrion works better as an underdog.  He got into a position of power and he is overestimating himself now.  He does better when he is backed into a little corner and needs to think outside the box.

I also agree with everyone else that Cersei is not responsible for all the good decisions.  However, she gets credit for deferring to those who know better.  That is what a wise ruler does.  She is also inspiring and motivating her followers.

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She's always been smart, but like most people who make mistakes, she has learned from them. But, she is drunk on revenge and power...two characteristics that most psychopaths possess. Cersei is a psychopath, and Jaime is just a pawn in her game, and has always been. 

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Is she really so smarter than she was?

Her main problem has always been attracting good allies (imho).

Who has she got now? Euros that will betray her as soon as there will be a better opportunity, the bank that just want the money back... she'said only got her brother.

Danny will have Jon and the North... and they are not traitors... (but attention must be payed to Tyrion)

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On 05/08/2017 at 3:23 PM, ummester said:

I agree book Tyrion is much smarter than show Tyrion, but also think he is a bit overrated in either case. The main book element (and season 1-4 element) that makes him seem smart are his quips - just like Olenna. He never, in books or show, felt as strategically smart with war matters as Tywin did.

Re the defense of Kings Landing - Tyrion had the upper hand. He had wildfire and he was already in the city - Stannis had to approach by boat and try and breach, he had no other option. Just because Tyrion made better decisions than Cersie doesn't make him as smart as Tywin may have been with the same defence.

Basically, I think it is exactly GRRMs dialogue that made Tyrion an enjoyable character - and that was more witty than smart. But, take that dialogue away, and I think just how overrated the character is is exposed.

I don't think Tyrion is overrated in the books, and to an extent in the show. Both KL and Meeren fell into his command on the brink of a disaster, both cities were powder kegs just about to blow off- Meeren due to the Sons of The Harpy almost seizing control and KL starving with riots being fanned by Cersei and Joffrey. He's taken a lot of flak for unpopular policies he had to implement to stabilise KL before Stannis has even come to Blackwater Bay, and to some extent took the heat off Joffrey as people happily blamed him for all their troubles because he's a dwarf  and it's easier to blame him as "the king has bad advisers". Were it not for his wildfire chain defense, KL could've surrendered to Stannis long before Tywin came to the rescue, and he successfully negotiated an alliance with Dorne.

In the show, he would always be on the losing side initially, simply to create tension before Daenerys starts winning. She started the season with a massive advantage, and Cersei with next to nothing apart from her reputation and a zombie Mountain. To level the score, showrunners basically levelled her up, giving her MagicEuron and his teleporting skills, Jaime as a successful commander, schemer and negotiator that convinces oppositions banner men to switch sides despite the Lannister reputation of treacherous snakes and a lot of propaganda fodder against "Mad Kings Daughter and her raping Dothraki horse", which seems to buy her a lot of support from the same people who called her a whore yesterday. 

 

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