Vale's mountain men worshiped Nettles and Sheepstealer? sorry not buying it

[Frey Kings]

This is not a Nettles theories topic.

Ever since TWOIAF, There's a pretty nice theory of a Vale Mountain Clan most likely the Painted Dogs/Burned Men who worshiped a fire-witch and so it happened to be Nettles.

 

Let's take a step back and apply some logic. When a overwhelming foreign invasion is underway and the natives can't win, they usually retreat to the mountains. Its almost like a natural human instinct like breathing. Mountainous Terran is  probably the hardest to conquer and the invading force usually moves on. OK back to Fantasy, When the Andals came, The Valemen retreated to the mountains and the Andals moved on. The various Vale's mountain clans were born. We can conclude now as of 2017, that they were a) Decedents of  Vale's First Men b.) Simpler People c) Not Neanderthals  d) Remote and Safe e) Not So Isolated

 

Que in the Timeline after the Dance of Dragons, conveniently a Vale's Clan, the Burned Men, sprung up. and worship what appears to be Nettles and her dragon Sheepstealer. Making sacrifices (humans) and burning their manhood or whatever. But here's the reasoning:

A) Its a dragon. A dragon that invaded your personal space. Your first instincts would be to run like your ancestors have.

B.) Do you attempt to defend your turf and attack the dragon?

C) The few that stayed behind decided the best way to deal with your new neighbor is to worship him and its master and you do that by burning yourself, great, but its dragonfire and you'll mostly be dead.  

D) Word will spread to the rest of the clans. Some may visit and end up being burned men. Some others will feel threaten and want to attack these heretics

E) Next it will spread to the average Valesmen. So now you got new suspicious onlookers that's looking out for signs of dragons. Probably now you got someone who can read and write and communicate this further 

F) How do you even keep a dragon locked away in a cave or on the top of a mountain away from everyone?

G) If you're Nettles, won't you be bored of this? You just got yourself a dragon and want to keep playing around with the same group of village idiots?

H) If you're the Burned Men clan, would you go along with this rumor that your whatever was burned by a dragon to look more fearsome than the others?

could go on forever...

 

Lovely theory overall, nice storytelling and connecting the dots but.... a Dragon that is burning a willful mountain clan on top of a mountain somewhere in the Vale??? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Would you buy this?

I read Alys Rivers into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Alys and Aemond One-Eye?!? You know, one of those twisted little dragon babies. And what if Timett (who has one eye) is not only the true heir to the Vale (as we all know is true, right?), but also a descendant ol' One-Eye?!? 

[Lord Varys]

If Sheepstealer was the dragon up there - and it seems that this was a literal dragon, not some boy the clansmen fondled - then he was dead and gone when the last dragon died in 153 AC.

That, in turn, indicates that either the other clans (not liking the fact that a fire witch and some dragon feeding on their sheep), the Lords of the Vale, or the armies of King Aegon III took care of that problem by slaying the dragon (and putting down the witch, too).

Wild dragons are dangerous, and dragons under the control of some traitors are potentially even more dangerous. To properly influence the culture of the clans, leading to the founding of the Burned Men one expects that they lived up there for at least 10-15 years, perhaps even twenty.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You're assuming too much, OP.

For one thing, the fire witch and dragon don't have to stay long. Nettles would only have needed to hide out long enough to find out that Rhaenyra and Aegon II were dead, and might have hung around until she heard that Daemon was gone.

Once the witch and dragon were gone, only those who have seen them with their own eyes will believe and pass that belief to their own children so no it won't spread to the other clans.

You're also expecting Valemen in general to take their cues from the mountain clans which is rather like expecting the North to follow House Wull. 

If it's not anyone with a real dragon, the only option left for a "fire witch" is a priestess of R'hllor. I don't think Mel is that old.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

A) Its a dragon. A dragon that invaded your personal space. Your first instincts would be to run like your ancestors have.

S lot probably did, and those who promised to worship her got protection  and maybe a hand in fighting. We don't know as most mountain clan people are illiterate 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

B.) Do you attempt to defend your turf and attack the dragon?

Have you ever heard of the old adage, "If you can't beat 'em, Join 'em"? 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

C) The few that stayed behind decided the best way to deal with your new neighbor is to worship him and its master and you do that by burning yourself, great, but its dragonfire and you'll mostly be dead.  

Or not. Quentyn took a full blast in the face. he lived for days after. A little burn would be no problem 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

D) Word will spread to the rest of the clans. Some may visit and end up being burned men. Some others will feel threaten and want to attack these heretics

Some will join, The ones that come to fight would be killed by the burned men or roasted alive. Because you know, Dragons. Besides, they are not heretics. That would require a strict orthodoxy for them to go against. 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

E) Next it will spread to the average Valesmen. So now you got new suspicious onlookers that's looking out for signs of dragons. Probably now you got someone who can read and write and communicate this further 

Well, it was during a time when the Dragonlords ruled westeros, and the vale is a kingdom that was conquered peacefully by a dragon ride and the Lord of the vale  married into the Targaryen family fairly early in the dynasty so seeing dragons flying around would be be spectacular  but not unheard. 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

 F) How do you even keep a dragon locked away in a cave or on the top of a mountain away from everyone?

Who says you have to? 

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

G) If you're Nettles, won't you be bored of this? You just got yourself a dragon and want to keep playing around with the same group of village idiots?

I don't know. you should ask the writers. Oh wait, they said she did, in the book.

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

H) If you're the Burned Men clan, would you go along with this rumor that your whatever was burned by a dragon to look more fearsome than the others?

According to the book it isn't a rumor.

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

could go on forever...

Or, rather than spending lots of time trying to explain why an author didn't write a book the way they did, you could take all that energy and write your own book..........

On 7/31/2017 at 3:15 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

Lovely theory overall, nice storytelling and connecting the dots but.... a Dragon that is burning a willful mountain clan on top of a mountain somewhere in the Vale??? 

Yes

[Lost Melnibonean]

 

2 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Not at all convinced by any of the OP's logic.

The setup in this story is that the literate class, composed of a handful of nobles and maesters, scoff at the tales of the smallfolk and do not believe them.  Meanwhile, the North in particular is HUGE and underpopulated, a fact that is emphasized in the text.  This would be doubly true of the massive mountain regions bordering the North.

The logic is, there can't be a dragon, because someone would see it, word would get out and someone would eventually write it down.  Well ... word DID get out and someone DID write it down.  Next argument.

Not saying what is or is not hiding in the unpopulated regions of the North.  But as far as I can see, Godzilla himself could be tromping around some abandoned Valley and all the Maesters trained in their Ivory Towers at the Citadel would not know the difference, because they would not believe the tales even if they heard them.

 

The dragon in question was said to be living in the Mountains of the Moon, not the North. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

The dragon in question was said to be living in the Mountains of the Moon, not the North. 

Lew Theobald mentioned that actually when he said "This would be doubly true of the massive mountain regions bordering the North." I believe he was only using the North as a reference point.

[Lost Melnibonean]

54 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Lew Theobald mentioned that actually when he said "This would be doubly true of the massive mountain regions bordering the North." I believe he was only using the North as a reference point.

Oh, duh. My bad. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Fire-witch with a dragon up there worshipped by the Painted Dogs/Burned Men after the Dance? I don't see why the OP is arguing. Even if George placed someone else there that he didn't mentioned in any book, the theory of her being Nettles is just based on obvious evidence.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

For reference...

Quote

There were four dragons still living at the start of his reign—Silverwing, Morning Light, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal. Yet Aegon III will always be remembered as the Dragonbane, for the last Targaryen dragon died during his reign in the year 153 AC.

The Reign of the Dragons, TWOIAF