Risto

Discussing Sansa XXIX: On all fronts...

99 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

I do remember Catelyn yelling at Robb "I told you never trust a Greyjoy" in front of Roose Bolton.

LOL, and then you could see she visibly got hold of herself, she didn't continue on blabbing in front of Robb's men. 

I mean, to me it's obvious the show has finally become much closer to a dumbed down action movie where the villains monologue and the action set pieces aren't expected to make sense than it is to what has historically been considered prestige drama.  The dialogue is often very clunky, there are 'in jokes', there is sophomoric humor, there are massive plot holes, characters act inconsistently from episode to episode.

The show is coasting on the credibility and connections it created in seasons 1-4.

Edited by Cas Stark

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On 8/2/2017 at 7:29 PM, Future Null Infinity said:

Sorry but it wasn't an excuse, I don't make excuses for fictional characters, I was speaking about the perspective of the viewers, some make of an event a very big deal (like the never ending actual "he must not kneel" trend)  and some see the same event as very trivial.

one can blame Sansa and I can blame Jon but it doesn't matter, and like you said it is like a human relationship and for me it is good for the story.

I'll assume that D & D don't just write this stuff randomly. In short, they have point they are trying to make. Or they want us to have a certain kind of reaction.

The problem here is when the point they are trying to make, misses the mark. Want to show Jon and Sansa having disagreements? Fine. Want to show that sometimes Sansa has better ideas. That's fine with me too. But, don't do it in such a way, that is completely clownish and ridiculous.

Failing to tell somebody in Jon's position about a relevant tactical matter is very very bad. I know what D & D think they were doing here. But, they didn't pull it off because I don't think they thought through what they were doing.

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32 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The problem here is when the point they are trying to make, misses the mark. Want to show Jon and Sansa having disagreements? Fine. Want to show that sometimes Sansa has better ideas. That's fine with me too. But, don't do it in such a way, that is completely clownish and ridiculous.

my point is when I see "Jon and Sansa having disagreements" I don't make a big deal of it, I frankly don't see what the fuss about a disagreement? and if it is hurting the over sensitive so be it,  and frankly I don't wanna see Jon above Sansa giving her orders nor Sansa above Jon, a team having disagreements is real,  this new trend of "Sansa is a traitor because it is the mighty Jon", "everybody must listen to Jon" and "how dare deanerys telling Jon to kneel" is childish

32 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Failing to tell somebody in Jon's position about a relevant tactical matter is very very bad. I know what D & D think they were doing here. But, they didn't pull it off because I don't think they thought through what they were doing.

Same thing, I can say that when Sansa gave him advice to concentrate on Cersei and then he came and told everybody that he's going to Daenerys to request help to fight the WW as very bad : perspective, it is the new trend in the show : Jon and Sansa make objections on the decisions of each other, is it a big deal? not for me

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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On 8/2/2017 at 8:12 PM, Future Null Infinity said:

my point is when I see "Jon and Sansa having disagreements" I don't make a big deal of it, I frankly don't see what the fuss about a disagreement? and if it is hurting the over sensitive so be it,  and frankly I don't wanna see Jon above Sansa giving her orders nor Sansa above Jon, a team having disagreements is real,  this new trend of "everybody must listen to Jon" and "how dare deanerys telling Jon to kneel" is childish

I don't really care who ends up ruling the North, among the Starks. I have no desire to see Jon boss Sansa around. But, Sansa did ask Jon to gather and lead an army against the Boltons. As Napoleon once said, one bad general is better than two good ones. And if Sansa was queen and Jon's direct superior, it still isn't a good idea to withhold vital information from him.

On 8/2/2017 at 8:12 PM, Future Null Infinity said:

Same thing, I can say that when Sansa gave him advice to concentrate on Cersei and then he came and told everybody that he's going to Daenerys to request help to fight the WW as very bad : perspective, it is the new trend in the show : Jon and Sansa make objections on the decisions of each other, is it a big deal? not for me

Just because you can say something doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense. So I don't know why persist in saying, "I can say...". 

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Sansa disagreeing with Jon's decisions. It's how she handles those disagreements that matter.

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1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

And that's fine. It's not like Sansa would be the first person real or fictional to tell a commanding officer they disagree with their decision on some matter. Still it's not much of an excuse to hold back critical and relevant information from them.

 

This is essentially the culprit. It was poor writing. And unfortunately it doesn't work.

I think D & D were trying to pull off two things here: 1) to have their big surprise of the Vale army coming in the last minute to save the day, which of course makes Ramsay look like an idiot. Evidently, he can find 20 good men to infiltrate Stannis' camp, but can't find that many to do recon or act as look outs. It's amazing the Vale Army can march that far into the North and nobody notices. And 2) they were trying to make the point that Sansa is smart/cunning. And I don't have a problem with them showing that. But, the way they did it was really dumb and made her look bad. I'd imagine the great bulk of military disasters happen because of communication failures or coordination failures. You don't hold that kind of information from a commander in the field. Even if you only suspected an army like the Vale was in the area, a rational person would report that.

Agreed. I think it should have gone down like this:  Sansa tells Jon she appealed to LF for aid so Jon agrees to try to hold out for aid to arrive. They wouldn't receive a raven from LF cuz Ramsey could intercept it. But of course the timing is not all up to Jon, Ramsey forces his hand and the battle begins before the reinforcements arrive thus still allowing the Vale army to ride in and save the day. Ramsey wouldn't send out scouts due to his arrogance and his father isn't around anymore to tell him how stupid he is. ☺

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1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

I don't really care who ends up ruling the North, among the Starks. I have no desire to see Jon boss Sansa around. But, Sansa did ask Jon to gather and lead an army against the Boltons. As Napoleon once said, one bad general is better than two good ones. And if Sansa was queen and Jon's direct superior, it still isn't a good idea to withhold vital information from him.

Just because you can say something doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense. So I don't know why persist in saying, "I can say...". 

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Sansa disagreeing with Jon's decisions. It's how she handles those disagreements that matter.

There is nothing wrong with Sansa disagreeing with Jon, but she shouldn't be doing it in front of the other lords. That said, Jon is king and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell, but if he wants to present a united front to their banner men, he needs to tell Sansa his plans BEFORE he holds his big meetings. 

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

When Brienne asked her about LF staying in WF, Sansa clearly answered that they need his men. Sansa knows that LF controls Sweetrobin and thus all the armies of the Vale. If he wants to be there, as their ally, he has every right to be there.

 

Why again is it that Littlefinger has complete control over the Vale?  Was it because Littlefinger gave Robyn Arryn a bird as a a gift, thereby obtaining eternal obedience from him?

I haven't read the books in a long time, but I seem to recall the Vale lords grudgingly allowing Littlefinger to be Lord Protector (or some other title) for only a year.

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On 8/2/2017 at 9:23 PM, SansaJonRule said:

That said, Jon is king and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell, but if he wants to present a united front to their banner men, he needs to tell Sansa his plans BEFORE he holds his big meetings. 

Agree. I'm not sure why hashing out their differences in private is so hard. It makes them both look bad.

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

I do remember Catelyn yelling at Robb "I told you never trust a Greyjoy" in front of Roose Bolton.

True. I had forgotten that one.:blush::huh:  

It was when they received word that Theon had taken Winterfell and her children were prisoners, wasn't it?
You have a point, but that was the only one and I think it came out  of her before she could restrain herself. On the other side,  I remember several ocassions when she takes great care in not undermining him in his bannermens' presence.

Edited by LucyMormont

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2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Agree. I'm not sure why hashing out their differences in private is so hard. It makes them both look bad.

What I don't understand is why that's indicative of bad writing. I always see people making this mistake of painting a character's flaws as "bad writing."

Edited by ThePukwudgie

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On 8/3/2017 at 1:48 AM, ThePukwudgie said:

What I don't understand is why that's indicative of bad writing.

Oh, I don’t know, Maybe it’s because the writers want us to think these two characters are kind of, at least, ball park reasonable and smart, but keep coming off like morons?

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7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, and then you could see she visibly got hold of herself, she didn't continue on blabbing in front of Robb's men. 

I mean, to me it's obvious the show has finally become much closer to a dumbed down action movie where the villains monologue and the action set pieces aren't expected to make sense than it is to what has historically been considered prestige drama.  The dialogue is often very clunky, there are 'in jokes', there is sophomoric humor, there are massive plot holes, characters act inconsistently from episode to episode.

The show is coasting on the credibility and connections it created in seasons 1-4.

Well, yeah, of course it is coasting... I mean, look at the dialogues across the board. "I was born on Dragonstone, not that I remember it". Really, were you expecting to remember it?

As for Sansa, it is not like she wasn't silenced. She questioned his decisions and then ultimately, respected it. Much more than Cat did with Robb.

 

4 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Why again is it that Littlefinger has complete control over the Vale?  Was it because Littlefinger gave Robyn Arryn a bird as a a gift, thereby obtaining eternal obedience from him?

I haven't read the books in a long time, but I seem to recall the Vale lords grudgingly allowing Littlefinger to be Lord Protector (or some other title) for only a year.

Because he controls the Lord of Eyrie, Warden of the East. That much is established in the show. It's not just about the bird, but about young Robin being child, who is easily manipulated. And LF knows how to do it. Lords of the Vale are honorable bunch. They'll not go against SR.

Which reminds me, I wish that SR was in Winterfell. It would be nice to see LF and Sansa manipulating him for their own agendas.

3 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

True. I had forgotten that one.:blush::huh:  

It was when they received word that Theon had taken Winterfell and her children were prisoners, wasn't it?
You have a point, but that was the only one and I think it came out  of her before she could restrain herself. On the other side,  I remember several ocassions when she takes great care in not undermining him in his bannermens' presence.

Yes. You also have the scene where Lannister spy gets into tent and she says "Robb" when he decides to spare him. He had to look at her very strictly to remind her who the Lord is.

Well, I agree that Catelyn had more tact than Sansa... But then again, she did something that Sansa, I believe, wouldn't do. This is why Jon/Sansa are much better than Robb/Catelyn.

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About the whole Sansa and Jon situation last season and this season.

I think it was extremely dumb that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale. I think it was extremely dumb that Jon didn't tell Sansa about his big decisions before officially announcing them to his bannermen. It was forced drama from D&D that didn't need to happen.

As for this episode, Sansa finally got some good scenes this season. However, it's still the "dumb down other characters to make another smart" writing.

Edited by GhostNymeria

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18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, and then you could see she visibly got hold of herself, she didn't continue on blabbing in front of Robb's men. 

Because Catelyn was a grown woman with decades of experience. Sansa is still a teenager who's very new at all this. There's a big difference between training for a role and suddenly being thrust into a bigger version of that role, especially when your experience of the past few years made it seem like you'd never be playing that role.

As for Sansa not telling Jon about the army of the Vale, I thought that was pretty obvious: she didn't want to be in debt to Littlefinger. Getting the army of the Vale would come at a cost, which is why she asked Jon to wait to get more men. When Jon decided to go ahead anyway, that's when she decided to get the army of the Vale, because she saw that she had no other choice.

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On 8/1/2017 at 4:39 PM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Her actions make no sense whatsoever. Suddenly she knows everything about grain, logistics and battle armor? She never read a book in her life and didnt have that kind of education.

Perhaps Jon brought her up to speed with logistics, grain and battle armor. 

And she has read books in her life; it's mentioned on the wiki of Ice and Fire that she is versed in the traditional feminine arts, via Septa Mordane. Would be hard to do if you've never cracked a book. Unless we're going to be changing that...

Could have added a scene with Jon teaching Sansa how to fight; he said for everyone from 10 to 60 should be taught how to fight and Sansa falls into that category.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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56 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Perhaps Jon brought her up to speed with logistics, grain and battle armor. 

And she has read books in her life; it's mentioned on the wiki of Ice and Fire that she is versed in the traditional feminine arts, via Septa Mordane. Would be hard to do if you've never cracked a book. Unless we're going to be changing that...

Could have added a scene with Jon teaching Sansa how to fight; he said for everyone from 10 to 60 should be taught how to fight and Sansa falls into that category.

 

Good points.  And book-Sansa had clearly read books, had a good memory for songs and stories and history and heraldry.  And even if Sansa had never picked up any books on Castle Management, she would have absorbed a lot of practical knowledge just by observing her own mother.  I've never studied castle maintenance; but I would know to try to assure a sufficient food supply for Winterfell and visiting allies, especially with the Winter setting in.  It would be nice if they were to show Sansa setting some women, possibly those less martially gifted, to the making of thick cloaks and other warm clothing (maybe finding some disabled men who can't walk or run anymore but whose hands still work); because warriors can be lost to pneumonia as well as arrows/wights.  But I'm not sure that the show writers' imaginations stretch that far; or that they'd want to take screen time from Euron's supposed humor.

 

Edited by Raksha 2014

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Could have added a scene with Jon teaching Sansa how to fight; he said for everyone from 10 to 60 should be taught how to fight and Sansa falls into that category.

This is why I didn't like Jon's "progressive" speech about women fighting. Simply, not EVERYONE will fight. Even the armies have the cooks, smiths, you know, non-fighting personnel. And they are essential that those who fight have a chance against the enemy. 

And I would agree with @Raksha 2014, it is so sad the writers' imagination is so limited. 

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"versed in the traditional feminine arts" = Like baking lemoncakes, sweing, table manners, saying MyLady and MyLord...

Sandra is the polar opposite of Arya. She wasn't shooting bows, chasing cats, having swordfight lessons because she was stubborn and boyish.

She's has allways been dumb and naive for 6 seasons, she spent 6 season surrounded by liars and selfish people. What does she know about Winter Armor? She only knows how to lie and fake emotions like she did in the Vale, thats not wise or smart, that's being Cersei v2.0. But suddenly becomes the best ruler ever. This is just terrible writing.

And btw, she should be kissing LF feet everyday because he saved her life, saved Jon's life, the Wildlings and the whole North. But somehow she only treats him with disgust. LF is Lord of both Harrenhall and the Vale, his army is in Winterfell holding the North. He could become the KingInDaNorF in a heartbeat if the show followed any logic whatsoever.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

"versed in the traditional feminine arts" = Like baking lemoncakes, sweing, table manners, saying MyLady and MyLord...

Sandra is the polar opposite of Arya. She wasn't shooting bows, chasing cats, having swordfight lessons because she was stubborn and boyish.

She's has allways been dumb and naive for 6 seasons, she spent 6 season surrounded by liars and selfish people. What does she know about Winter Armor? She only knows how to lie and fake emotions like she did in the Vale, thats not wise or smart, that's being Cersei v2.0. But suddenly becomes the best ruler ever. This is just terrible writing.

And btw, she should be kissing LF feet everyday because he saved her life, saved Jon's life, the Wildlings and the whole North. But somehow she only treats him with disgust. LF is Lord of both Harrenhall and the Vale, his army is in Winterfell holding the North. He could become the KingInDaNorF in a heartbeat if the show followed any logic whatsoever.

I think if the show followed any logic, (1) he wouldn't have sent Sansa to WF for a handshake, (2) if he did, Bolton would have arranged an accident, (3) if Bolton didn't kill him, Lord Royce would have arranged an accident on the way to WF, after he threatened his life (4) If none of that happened, Sansa would have had him killed for betraying her.  So, logically LF should either still be in the Vale chillin with Sansa or he should be dead several times over.

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Reminder:

1) According to the books, Sansa can read and write better than any of her brothers.

2) Liking feminine things does not make you dumb. 

3) Thinking that feminine people are dumb is pretty sexist. And also, coincidentally, dumb.

 

 

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