Carl Benson

The Olynna Scene Changes Everything...

59 posts in this topic

LOL! Yeah, poor Tyrion. He tried to prevent innocent deaths, but in the end he just guaranteed a prolonged war with greater loss of life. They should've gone into King's Landing immediately and gone for a decapitating strike. Victory would've been certain if they'd done that. Instead, Tyrion's plan has cost them Dorne, The Reach, their Ironborn, and the Unsullied. Daenerys is now down to the Dothraki and her dragons.

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3 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I don't see why this is being downplayed.  Tyrion not being guilty should change Jamie's entire outlook on his family.  Accusing Tyrion of the murder showed 1. Cersei despised him and wanted him dead and was willing to overlook basic logic (ie Tyrion not really the prime suspect to kill Joeffrey) in order to have him killed and 2. Tywin's willingness to overlook searching for Joffrey's murdered in order to have his son put on trial and sentenced to death. I understand Jamie knew of their overall dislike for Tyrion but I don't think Jamie believed they would go this far out of hatred. This goes against what both of them have said for the entire series about preserving the Lannister name and making sure the house survives.  Literally their hatred for Tyrion made sure the house did not survive. 

:agree: absolutely!

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It should change things but it won't. Not in this show. Because the people writing it don't give a shit about character development.

However, Cersei finding out about Olenna in the books - which she might - certainly should have drastic repercussion for all the people involved.

But Tyrion would still be Tywin's murderer so there is no chance for him to get off the hook.

Thinking about it - why did Olenna have to die in the show prior to her confession? I mean, okay, she helped bring Dany to Dragonstone but is that enough to kill a defenseless old lady? Cersei blew up her entire family so I daresay they could have allowed the old girl to live out the remainder or her life in peace. 

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7 hours ago, Parkourya Stark said:

It doesn't and why should it..?

Cersei won't care that Olenna admitted to it, even if she believes Jamie (who believes Olenna) when he presumably tells her. Jamie will say Tyrion is vindicated, but Cersei won't agree or won't care, and then we continue as normal. It will be a further thought for Jamie towards killing Cersei but that's it.

Tyrion also killed Tywin so Jamie isn't going to be best buds with him.

I was also going to say that. But to add, she also holds Tyrion responsible for the deaths of her mother and Mycella because he was the one that shipped her off to Dorne

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tyrion would still be Tywin's murderer so there is no chance for him to get off the hook.

I mean he murdered Tywin butif Jamie hadn't let him escape Tyrion would have been killed and never had the chance to kill Tywin.  But, if you found out your dad tried to have your brother framed for your son's murder because he hates him, wouldn't you cut your brother a little bit of slack for then murdering your father.  Also, Tywin was murdered in a room with Tyrion's prostitute/lover.  So, not saying he's off the hook for the murder but there is enough here to possibly see your dad in a different light and just maybe cut your dwarf brother who's been treated like shit by the rest of your family for his entire life just a little bit of slack. 

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3 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I mean he murdered Tywin butif Jamie hadn't let him escape Tyrion would have been killed and never had the chance to kill Tywin.  But, if you found out your dad tried to have your brother framed for your son's murder because he hates him, wouldn't you cut your brother a little bit of slack for then murdering your father.  Also, Tywin was murdered in a room with Tyrion's prostitute/lover.  So, not saying he's off the hook for the murder but there is enough here to possibly see your dad in a different light and just maybe cut your dwarf brother who's been treated like shit by the rest of your family for his entire life just a little bit of slack. 

But Tywin honestly believed Tyrion was guilty, right? 

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Jaime has never particularly broken up over the death of Jofferey. He cares more than book Jaime, but it doesn't seem to drive him.  He knew and saw what went on at Tyrion's trial.  This doesn't change any of that, so his feelings towards Cersei and Tywin (who didn't know this) shouldn't change much.  Honestly, a smart man, which Jaime isn't, would question why she is telling me this on her deathbed.  It could be a little bit of spite, or could be a LOT of spite and a lie trying to sow discord.  

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It should change things but it won't. Not in this show. Because the people writing it don't give a shit about character development.

However, Cersei finding out about Olenna in the books - which she might - certainly should have drastic repercussion for all the people involved.

But Tyrion would still be Tywin's murderer so there is no chance for him to get off the hook.

Thinking about it - why did Olenna have to die in the show prior to her confession? I mean, okay, she helped bring Dany to Dragonstone but is that enough to kill a defenseless old lady? Cersei blew up her entire family so I daresay they could have allowed the old girl to live out the remainder or her life in peace. 

My guess for the reason that they killed her off was simply so they could end the episode with another big character being killed off. 

Because other than for drama purposes, Olenna was no longer a threat to Cersei. Just an old lady who lost her whole family, lost her main ally (Tarly) and just minutes before her death also lost her home.

Olenna was quite a popular character too, so killing her but letting her have the last word or the last laugh against the Lannisters by revealing she was the one that really killed Joffrey pleased many of Olenna's fans despite killing her off. 

In a sense, I thought it was quite a clever and apt death for a character like Olenna Tyrell. Easily the highlight of the episode.

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29 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

My guess for the reason that they killed her off was simply so they could end the episode with another big character being killed off. 

Because other than for drama purposes, Olenna was no longer a threat to Cersei. Just an old lady who lost her whole family, lost her main ally (Tarly) and just minutes before her death also lost her home.

Olenna was quite a popular character too, so killing her but letting her have the last word or the last laugh against the Lannisters by revealing she was the one that really killed Joffrey pleased many of Olenna's fans despite killing her off. 

In a sense, I thought it was quite a clever and apt death for a character like Olenna Tyrell. Easily the highlight of the episode.

Yeah, but we already knew she killed Joff.  It was already made clear in the show.  Other than that, I agree the show would send her out like a badass.  they're just really tying up loose ends this season, so killing a lot of the remaining secondary characters for the end game.

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3 minutes ago, legba11 said:

Jaime has never particularly broken up over the death of Jofferey. He cares more than book Jaime, but it doesn't seem to drive him.  He knew and saw what went on at Tyrion's trial.  This doesn't change any of that, so his feelings towards Cersei and Tywin (who didn't know this) shouldn't change much.  Honestly, a smart man, which Jaime isn't, would question why she is telling me this on her deathbed.  It could be a little bit of spite, or could be a LOT of spite and a lie trying to sow discord.  

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tywin honestly believed Tyrion was guilty, right? 

It took Jamie to convince taking off the Kings guard cape in order for his dad to even consider sending Tyrion to the wall and not having his son murdered.  The fact that you keep saying Tywin didn't know that Tyrion wasn't guilty and yet he was willing to have his son tried anyways and somehow knew who Tyrion's whore was (when even Cersei messed that up) and convinced her to go against Tyrion is just confusing to me.  There is too much happening for Tywin to be "convinced" his son was guilty. He used it as a chance to murder/get rid of Tyrion, which again goes against preserving House Lannister.

Also, agree show Jamie cares too much about Joffrey but Marcella told him she knew he was his dad and then she died because Oberyn was murdered at Tyrion's trial by combat, which was created by Cersei.  Joffrey died on his watch because he was crazy, which was arguably because Cersei let him have/do literally whatever he wants.  Then while he is out trying to end the war, Tommen commits suicide because Cersei murdered his wife, which was Cersei's fault. Cersei seems to be a reoccurring theme for Jamie's kids to be killed and now you could argue she is the main reason Tyrion was taken away and Tywin was murdered. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, but we already knew she killed Joff.  It was already made clear in the show.  Other than that, I agree the show would send her out like a badass.  they're just really tying up loose ends this season, so killing a lot of the remaining secondary characters for the end game.

Yes, we as viewers knew that but the Lannisters were still under the illusion that Tyrion killed Joffrey. This was a way for the Lannisters to find out who truly killed him, and maybe even potential for a possible conflict between Jaime and Cersei if he tells her and starts to defend Tyrion (even though he still killed Tywin).

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12 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

It took Jamie to convince taking off the Kings guard cape in order for his dad to even consider sending Tyrion to the wall and not having his son murdered.  The fact that you keep saying Tywin didn't know that Tyrion wasn't guilty and yet he was willing to have his son tried anyways and somehow knew who Tyrion's whore was (when even Cersei messed that up) and convinced her to go against Tyrion is just confusing to me.  There is too much happening for Tywin to be "convinced" his son was guilty. He used it as a chance to murder/get rid of Tyrion, which again goes against preserving House Lannister.

I don't really care about the show setting there, but the fact remains that both show and book Tywin would have tried to find the real killer if they had thought it wasn't Tyrion. Joffrey was Tywin's king and grandson. Honor demands that he be avenged.

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I guess I phrased the thread title wrong. You are all correct of course, nothing will change, but if the world knew it was Olynna at the time, what a drastically different place Westoros would have n been the past few years...so many ripples.

 

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I think this wont be too relevant in the future. Tyrells are all dead, Cersei got her revenge killing them all.

Jaime might bring it up but it wont have any effect since Tyrion is allied to Dany and Cersei allways hated him anyway.

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I'm with Varys here, Tywin didn't know Tyrion was innocent. He hated Tyrion, but that wouldn't change his pursuit of the truth and vengeance. His dislike of his son likely influenced his thinking, but that is not close to letting him die for a crime he didn't commit (and letting the killer walk and sit in their inner circle).

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31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't really care about the show setting there, but the fact remains that both show and book Tywin would have tried to find the real killer if they had thought it wasn't Tyrion. Joffrey was Tywin's king and grandson. Honor demands that he be avenged.

 

13 minutes ago, legba11 said:

I'm with Varys here, Tywin didn't know Tyrion was innocent. He hated Tyrion, but that wouldn't change his pursuit of the truth and vengeance. His dislike of his son likely influenced his thinking, but that is not close to letting him die for a crime he didn't commit (and letting the killer walk and sit in their inner circle).

I understand where you're coming from and I get that his dislike for his son influenced him but there are so many wholes in acting like Tywin didn't know or had very strong reason to know Tyrion didn't do it.  1. Even Tywin has admitted that Tyrion is clever, so why would Tyrion stand there with the goblet in his hand after his death Tywin, 2. Tywin knew using Shae would be the nail in Tyrion's coffin so to speak 3. Witnesses were paid for and used against Tyrion and the crowd was the easiest to persuade of anything, so why not blame an actual adversary to Tywin than his son and 4. Tywin set who was on the damn judging committee lol.  There is too much here to point that Tywin had an honest belief his son was guilty. 

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I find it interesting that the "secret" of Jamie being a father to Cersei's kids, and their continued relationship, seems to be completely out in the open now. Jamie is not denying anything. I liked how Oleana encouraged him to admit it, since she would not live to tell anyone. I think everyone knows!

 

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The killed Olenna so Cersei can pay the Iron Bank with the Tyrells money...

 

I Actually think that now that Tyrion is innocent (of the Jofrey's assasination) Jaimie will look at him in another way...

 

I'm picturing a scenario where Cersei somehow kills Tyrion and Jaimie kills her because of that (fullfilling the Valonqar prophecy)

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and NOW what?

I think that the implications will be so deep on Jaime's feelings : now he sees that Cersei bring them an apocalypse when Tyrion brought Daenerys to Westeros and that he was right when he freed Tyrion and he was right when he sent Brienne to protect Sansa and  he will be right when he will put a knife in Cersei's heart.

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14 hours ago, Leto Atreides said:

It won't change anything. The false narrative is too deeply rooted at this point: The Imp is a kinslayer.

 

Of course he is, he did kill his father. So the title of kinslayer is richly deserved, just as Tywin's death was richly deserved, indeed.

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