Carl Benson

The Olynna Scene Changes Everything...

59 posts in this topic

The implication is that Cersei will be pissed at Jaime because he's the one who talked her into letting Olenna have an easy death they now know she (in Cersei's world view) shouldn't have gotten.

She'll probably throw Tyrion in his face like she did in Season 5 when they discovered Tywin's death.  "You're soft and it fucks things up for us."

So there's the start of the final wedge.

If they mean for Jaime to reconcile with Tyrion eventually there will also probably be a bit where Cersei says something like "I knew/dad knew he didn't really kill Joffrey lol we don't care we were just trying to get rid of him cuz fuck him, that's why.  He killed dad which just proves our point."

It'll be dumb and forced [to have Cersei feel/know this, anyway.  It's absolutely consistent with Tywin and implied between the lines at the time] but we've got a Valonqar Timetable to keep here boys and girls, get used to it.

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about it - why did Olenna have to die in the show prior to her confession? I mean, okay, she helped bring Dany to Dragonstone but is that enough to kill a defenseless old lady? Cersei blew up her entire family so I daresay they could have allowed the old girl to live out the remainder or her life in peace. 

Good point. Olenna could even have been a valuable prosoner against Reach lords still loyal to her (like the Redwynes, most likely) and currently on Danys side.

But complicated politics of that scale are not part of the show and Jamie made it clear, that Cersei would torture Olenna when brought back to KL (because she is the evil queen on a revenge trip) so letting her die this way was just an act of mercy on Jamies part.

 

I think, it would have been more awesome, if Olenna poisoned herself, as to deny Cersei both the satisfaction of killing/torturing/humiliating her and the possibility of using her as a pawn. 

Edited by Rhollo

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1 hour ago, Rhollo said:

I think, it would have been more awesome, if Olenna poisoned herself, as to deny Cersei both the satisfaction of killing/torturing/humiliating her and the possibility of using her as a pawn. 

I actually thought she had done that already when Jaime entered the room. The idea that he brought poison to her was just silly.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually thought she had done that already when Jaime entered the room. The idea that he brought poison to her was just silly.

I think the poison was just to emphasise the difference in Cersei and Jaime's way of dealing with things. Presumably Jaime wouldn't have had her killed at all, but at the very least had enough sway over Cersei to downgrade her death.

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In real time, Jaime just got out of bed after sexing up his sister last Sunday.  That is AFTER his sister blew up the sept and killed thousands of innocents, indirectly caused Tommen's death, and named herself king queen. Anybody here who thinks Olenna's testimony will have Jaime even turn Cersie down for sex, let alone for life, is wrong. The story is clearly aiming at a change in Jaime and thus it is expected but he strikes me as the dude who really wants to be a 'good dude' but he would have to put some effort into it - Jaime is pretty spineless so far.  He will get his moment, but this is a guy who has let a ton of evil flow on his watch.

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Jaime will only turn against Cersei when she marries Euron. That is as clear as crystal water. That is what they are aiming at in the show. He is already jealous of the guy and I guess that and a couple of other things happening next season will cause him to turn against her.

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime will only turn against Cersei when she marries Euron. That is as clear as crystal water. That is what they are aiming at in the show. He is already jealous of the guy and I guess that and a couple of other things happening next season will cause him to turn against her.

Considering the fact he has been a witness to so many of her atrocities and murders, I am starting to agree that the only way he will finally turn on her is if she marries another man or he catches her in bed with another man. Everything is pointing at Euron to be that man.

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9 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Considering the fact he has been a witness to so many of her atrocities and murders, I am starting to agree that the only way he will finally turn on her is if she marries another man or he catches her in bed with another man. Everything is pointing at Euron to be that man.

From what the spoilers tell us:

Spoiler

There will be a sort of Great Council thing at the Dragonpit later this season, when Dany and Jon finally present evidence that the 'army of the dead' is a thing (apparently some living and kicking wight) to everyone, including Cersei. She will feign to agree that this is the common enemy, etc. and promise to send men to defend the Wall, etc. but then decide to use the Others/wights as a convenient means to get rid of her enemies.

Jaime will apparently be disgusted by that, defying her and apparently leaving her.

That causes me to speculate that Cersei will then make good of her promise to Euron and marry him, and together they stab the good guys in the back during the lead-up to or the actual final battle. That, in turn, will then lead Jaime to kill Cersei as he is going to do in the books considering that it is pretty clear that he is the valonqar. It is really not that difficult to predict how things will go now that those hacks write the story. George is complex, subtle, and full of surprises. They aren't.

This is something Euron-Cersei could also do in the book although I also find it very interesting if there is some sort of truce during the Second Dance and Aegon is going to promise Dany and the others to aid them against the Others - and then deciding to not follow up on that promise. That could the point where Varys and Aegon part ways in the books.

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The problem is at this point both Sansa and Tyrion are aiding two armies that are defying Cersie's rule. So big picture it doesn't matter. Smaller picture it could if Cersie was a rational actor. But too much happened now. 

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I definitely think it will change things, but it might take a while. Olenna is extremely clever, but she was one who planted seeds to grow over time and ran the long cons. I think she knew exactly what she was doing and how it would affect Jaime, but I think it will still take a while considering how tightly he is wrapped around Cersei's finger. 

This article goes into all the potential consequences of Olenna's confession: http://www.buddytv.com/articles/game-of-thrones/game-of-thrones-season-7-why-o-65563.aspx

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Here Jamie's spineless a far cry from the end of ADWD. That being said, it'll take him a while but he'll eventually turn on her. Probably not this season however.

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28 minutes ago, TyrionFan82 said:

Here Jamie's spineless a far cry from the end of ADWD. That being said, it'll take him a while but he'll eventually turn on her. Probably not this season however.

No it's bound to be a penultimate-episode-kinda-deal, I'm sure.

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While the contents of the conversation had nothing in common, I got serious Genna Lannister vibes from the Jaime/Olenna scene.  It's a good replacement considering Genna wasn't added to the show.

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Echoing what many others have said, this scene with Olenna serves only to give the viewers a reason why Jaime doesn't kill Tyrion on the spot after announcing he would to Bronn on the boat ride to Dorne in S5.  Maybe a D&D first remembering some dialouge from a previous episode and trying to explain it.

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually thought she had done that already when Jaime entered the room. The idea that he brought poison to her was just silly.

I did too.  That was intentional on their part as they began the shot focused on the wine.  I was wondering if the poison was designed to kill Jaime or just deny them her as a hostage.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime will only turn against Cersei when she marries Euron. That is as clear as crystal water. That is what they are aiming at in the show. He is already jealous of the guy and I guess that and a couple of other things happening next season will cause him to turn against her.

This is (a rare) case where the show would be in synch with book Jaime.  For all the awful things Cersei does in the books, the resonating act (in Jaime's head) is all the other men she slept with. (the Kettleblacks, ... and even Moonboy line which keeps coming back to him).  That is what pushes him free of her claws in the books.  He is my favorite part of the books, but he is (in most ways) a simple man.  He likes to fight, talk about fighting and he loves his sister (and brother, but not the same way).  He regrets the bad things he did, but I don't see that regret as turning him as much as Cersei's lack of reciprocation of his love.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/1/2017 at 6:56 AM, Quoth said:

Jaime might not even tell Cersei about the confession. Don't forget, he talked Cersei out of torturing and giving Olenna a horrible death. Instead he gave Olenna a very easy death, only to find out that she killed Joff? I'm pretty sure that the Cersei, now in full whack-job mode,  would be pretty vexed, to say the least, about being denied her vengence.

This right here.

On 8/1/2017 at 7:00 AM, Leto Atreides said:

It won't change anything. The false narrative is too deeply rooted at this point: The Imp is a kinslayer.

 

...and this right here.

What it will do is change Jamie's opinion of Cersei, in that it will make him see her crazy, clearer, because of her insane hatred of Tyion forever, and irrational hatred of Sansa simply by being Tyrion-adjacent, long before Tywin's death.

The Valonqar has been born.

 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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21 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Echoing what many others have said, this scene with Olenna serves only to give the viewers a reason why Jaime doesn't kill Tyrion on the spot after announcing he would to Bronn on the boat ride to Dorne in S5.  Maybe a D&D first remembering some dialouge from a previous episode and trying to explain it.

Jamie said he would kill Tyrion for murdering Tywin, which he still did.

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On 8/2/2017 at 1:17 PM, Rhollo said:

Good point. Olenna could even have been a valuable prosoner against Reach lords still loyal to her (like the Redwynes, most likely) and currently on Danys side.

(...) I think, it would have been more awesome, if Olenna poisoned herself, as to deny Cersei both the satisfaction of killing/torturing/humiliating her and the possibility of using her as a pawn. 

This would have been a wonderful script.

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On 8/2/2017 at 11:52 PM, TyrionFan82 said:

Here Jamie's spineless a far cry from the end of ADWD. That being said, it'll take him a while but he'll eventually turn on her. Probably not this season however.

Hopefully not this season!

Lena is brilliant, and I want her on the show as long as poss.

Plus she's been set up in both books and show to be THE BIG BAD of the entire story. Euron is a blip. Hopefully.

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