The Knight of Flours

Jon Snow - First of his Name....

93 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Im watching the show, i really am :P I am referencing the fact that he is no in open rebellion to Daenerys who claims to be Queen when she isnt.

She is pressing her claim is Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not the Six Kingdoms. So, yes in her view the North is open rebellion. Just as it was for King Stannis and King Renly during Robb Stark's time.

She is a self entitled bratt who doesnt like it when she gets her own way and constantly says she is the Queen directly or indirectly.

Joffrey emphasized that he King when he wanted to do something sadistic like serve Robb's head to Sansa for dinner. It is not even comparable to Dany proclaiming herself to be Queen in front of a vassal whom she expects to swear fealty.

She did and no its not but she still expects that he bends the knee to an Oath swore 300 years ago, which is ridiculous. It cant just work one way. 

Not ridiculous. The North bent the knee to the Dragons for 280 years. The Greatjon reminds us of this back in season one.

How does she inspire loyalty please give me a couple of examples?

The Unsullied, the Dothraki, Jorah Mormont, Missandei, Tyrion. To deny that Dany doesn't inspire loyalty is silly.

Yes and if you read the recent comments youll see people agree with what I have said rather than your nonsense.

Some do, some don't. Pretty mixed bag if you ask me.

 

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4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Yes Dany feels entitled to her father's throne. That is how feudalism works.  Her views on this are no different than any other high born heir in this world. Always cracks me up when people criticize her for this.

Even Viserys had at least laid eyes on Westeros before deciding he'd trample over thousands of bodies in order to own it. Her utter ignorance of all things Westeros (as evidenced by her claim that the Targaryans brought centuries of peace and prosperity prior to the Mad King), combined with her claim to it makes her quite unique.

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11 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Even Viserys had at least laid eyes on Westeros before deciding he'd trample over thousands of bodies in order to own it. Her utter ignorance of all things Westeros (as evidenced by her claim that the Targaryans brought centuries of peace and prosperity prior to the Mad King), combined with her claim to it makes her quite unique.

Not really. It doesn't really matter if she had never seen Westeros prior to this her claim is her claim. What ignorance?  This is the show not the books. We don't really know all that transpired the last 280 years in the show universe. Notice how nobody disputed that? Even going by the books I don't think she is wrong either. What is it 10 wars or so in 280 years. That is nothing for a medieval society.

Edited by El Guapo

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17 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Not really. It doesn't really matter if she had never seen Westeros prior to this her claim is her claim. What ignorance?  This is the show not the books. We don't really know all that transpired the last 280 years in the show universe. Even going by the books I don't think she is wrong. What is it 10 wars or so in 280 years. That is nothing for a medieval society.

In the books the Field of Fire was the biggest gathering of armies in Westeros to date, and they all died, all of them, which is nothing like real medieval rout. Then you got the First Dornish war, where their dragons reduced just about every castle and town to smouldering rocks, not nothing even for Westeros' inflated history, the war between Maegor and the Faith Militant was the biggest religious conflict, the Dance of Dragons the bloodiest war, then there's the Second Dornish war, again tens of thousands died, the Blackfyre Rebellion likewise a big war (and likewise a civil war between Targs), saw Casterly Rock and Lannisport threatened like it hadn't ever been before.

Now sure, the Game of Thrones had been going on long before the Targaryans arrived, but they could never match the Targaryan wars for scope, or their dragons for carnage. And for the North especially, all the Targaryans ever meant was taxes, calls to sourthern wars and reduction of territory northwards in the New Gift. As far as we know Stannis is first sourthern King that send armies north to assist them out rather then the other way around.

Edited by Denam_Pavel

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2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

 

She has no claim, her father was overthrew and thats that. Its her view, this is exactly what I'm saying its her view and its incorrect. 

Again taken my words out of context aabout referring to Tywins words as a reference to Cersei.

Hows is the Greatjon Umber any reference to a stark/targaryen oath, the targaryens were overthrew so it bares no reference.

As pointed out before she doesnt inspire loyalty, the unsullied know no difference and never will. You really think the Dothraki are loyal to her,if you believe this your very deluded. What do you think they are going to do after the war, stay true to no pillaging raping. I think not. Missandei maybe yes, Jorah is a love sick child. Tyrion was handed to her as a gift, they shared a few common traits and thats about it. She in spires little to no loyalty.

 

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3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Not really. It doesn't really matter if she had never seen Westeros prior to this her claim is her claim. What ignorance?  This is the show not the books. We don't really know all that transpired the last 280 years in the show universe. Notice how nobody disputed that? Even going by the books I don't think she is wrong either. What is it 10 wars or so in 280 years. That is nothing for a medieval society.

I believe all the show lore up until The Ninepenny Kings is the same. (Because they messed with the Targaryen tree a bit in the show taking out King Jaehaerys) There were FIVE Blackfyre Rebellions from 196 to 260 alone(Verdicts out on Faegon at the moment but that could be considered a 6th in disguise). People like to say that the Targaryens united all the Kingdoms and all was peaceful, but the arugument that just as much blood has been spilled since they conquered Westeros than if they had just left it alone is very valid and can be criticized. Adding dragons to the mix made every conflict much worse. Especially if both sides had them. Daenerys' claim that under Targaryen rule Westeros was peaceful is plain wrong or if the writers think this is a correct statement then this is writer error and ignorance.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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30 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

She has no claim, her father was overthrew and thats that. Its her view, this is exactly what I'm saying its her view and its incorrect. 

Again taken my words out of context aabout referring to Tywins words as a reference to Cersei.

Hows is the Greatjon Umber any reference to a stark/targaryen oath, the targaryens were overthrew so it bares no reference.

As pointed out before she doesnt inspire loyalty, the unsullied know no difference and never will. You really think the Dothraki are loyal to her,if you believe this your very deluded. What do you think they are going to do after the war, stay true to no pillaging raping. I think not. Missandei maybe yes, Jorah is a love sick child. Tyrion was handed to her as a gift, they shared a few common traits and thats about it. She in spires little to no loyalty.

 

That is not how claims work. You don't lose them. She has a claim. Jon has a claim as well once the his heritage is revealed.  

And again if you don't think she inspires loyalty among her men than you have not been watching the show or you are just so biased in your opinions of Dany that you won't admit it. I can't believe you are even trying to debate this point.

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9 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

That is not how claims work. You don't lose them. She has a claim. Jon has a claim as well once the his heritage is revealed.  

And again if you don't think she inspires loyalty among her men than you have not been watching the show or you are just so biased in your opinions of Dany that you won't admit it. I can't believe you are even trying to debate this point.

Thats stupid so your telling me every family in history that has been overthrown still has a claim. She was exiled along with Viserys, that surely ends that claim. Jamie Lannister is actually the rightful recipient to the Iron Throne at this moment in time.

Lets go into more detail then - why doesnt she inspire loyalty.

  • Shares no common interest - Sand snakes want revenge, Ollena Tyrell wants revenge, Yara wants the Iron Island, dothraki follow power.
  • Meereen - struggles to hold on to power she gained through force and intimidation.
  • She tried to impose her will and hope people will see the righteousness in their moves. She was saved by her dragon seconds from assassination.
  • Trust - does she trust them? Varys tried to have her killed. She cant really trust any of them, only really missandei.
  • Values - she doesnt share any values, the dothraki and the ironborn are born to pillage, rape and plunder.
  • Motivation -  do her 'followers' motivate her, no she motivates herself, as she said she carried on as she had faith in Daenerys Targaryen.

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On Invalid Date at 8:56 AM, The Knight of Flours said:

OK, Obviously Missandei has had a lot of practice, announcing Dany's ever-growing list of titles, over and over....

But Jon came off clearly second-best when Davos introduced him...

So how could Jon have been announced?

 

How about:

Jon Snow, King in the North, Blood of the Direwolf, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, The Peacemaker, A Prince Reborn

 

The above only relates to his Stark/Snow heritage - nothing about his Targaryan ancestry (although the reborn prince bit would also fit with that line)

 

Any other suggestions as to titles he could use when meeting Dany or other rulers?

I think jon snow coundn't give a **** says more than all the titles. Of course If we believe R+L =J Then he would have all her titles and his own plus if he is the ptwp, we would need a whole episode just to say them all

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33 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Thats stupid so your telling me every family in history that has been overthrown still has a claim. She was exiled along with Viserys, that surely ends that claim. Jamie Lannister is actually the rightful recipient to the Iron Throne at this moment in time.

Lets go into more detail then - why doesnt she inspire loyalty.

  • Shares no common interest - Sand snakes want revenge, Ollena Tyrell wants revenge, Yara wants the Iron Island, dothraki follow power.
  • Meereen - struggles to hold on to power she gained through force and intimidation.
  • She tried to impose her will and hope people will see the righteousness in their moves. She was saved by her dragon seconds from assassination.
  • Trust - does she trust them? Varys tried to have her killed. She cant really trust any of them, only really missandei.
  • Values - she doesnt share any values, the dothraki and the ironborn are born to pillage, rape and plunder.
  • Motivation -  do her 'followers' motivate her, no she motivates herself, as she said she carried on as she had faith in Daenerys Targaryen.

Claims in general are subjective. People can have a "claim" for whatever reason, whether anyone supports these claims is up to people to decide. "Power resides where people believe it resides"

IT:

Robert - Claim was through his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen when he won RRs.

Joffrey - Claim was he IS the rightful heir and trueborn son of Robert, even if he wasn't, like I said subjective and some may/did believe it.

Stannis - Claim was he was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne since all of Robert's trueborns were actually bastards of Jaime and Cersei. He would be next in line.

Renly - Claim was possible because he was IN the line of succession but he was also loved by many and having the men and support to take it over Stannis.

Viserys - Claim was his father sat on the Iron Throne, so he has "a claim", whether anyone would of ever seriously supported this claim, we'll never know since he's dead.

Daenerys - Same as Viserys but she actually has the support to try and press this claim.

Kingdom of the North:

Robb - Is a Stark and descendant of the last King in the North, Torrhen Stark. Even if the Starks swore fealty to the Targaryens in perpetuity the last Targaryen King burnt the Lord of the North and his oldest son alive so that renders that oath moot in many eyes. The Northern lords were finally sick of the southern's shit and said "fuck off we're ruling ourselves again."

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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30 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Thats stupid so your telling me every family in history that has been overthrown still has a claim. She was exiled along with Viserys, that surely ends that claim. Jamie Lannister is actually the rightful recipient to the Iron Throne at this moment in time.

Lets go into more detail then - why doesnt she inspire loyalty.

  • Shares no common interest - Sand snakes want revenge, Ollena Tyrell wants revenge, Yara wants the Iron Island, dothraki follow power.
  • Meereen - struggles to hold on to power she gained through force and intimidation.
  • She tried to impose her will and hope people will see the righteousness in their moves. She was saved by her dragon seconds from assassination.
  • Trust - does she trust them? Varys tried to have her killed. She cant really trust any of them, only really missandei.
  • Values - she doesnt share any values, the dothraki and the ironborn are born to pillage, rape and plunder.
  • Motivation -  do her 'followers' motivate her, no she motivates herself, as she said she carried on as she had faith in Daenerys Targaryen.

 

Yes I am telling you if you are related to a deposed KIng you have a claim to that throne. That is how it works. Now obviously many factors going into this such as how long ago that King was deposed and what your relationship was to that King.. If you are the son or daughter to a King that was deposed 20 years ago you have a very strong claim to the throne. If you are a trying to claim Highgarden because your great-great-great-great-great grandfather was  a Gardener you would get laughed at by pretty much everyone. That is claims work both in Westeros and in real medieval history.

You go into detail all you want but realize it is your own personal opinions and not what is actually shown on the tv show. Though I do wonder why you are including people like Olenna, the Sand Snakes or Varys who I never claimed were completely loyal to Dany. But knock yourself out.

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4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Yes I am telling you if you are related to a deposed KIng you have a claim to that throne. That is how it works.

Agreed. Daenerys has a claim. It's a claim she will have to enforce with, well, force which makes it functionally the same as an invasion, which incidentally is what the Targaryens did in the first place: Landing at Dragonstone, having three dragons etc, the similarities are striking and obviously intentional both in-story and out.

"Having a claim" really doesn't mean all that much unless you can get a lot of people to agree that it is a good, valid claim, however - and that's where Dany's falls apart, since her father broke faith with a number of his lords and hence was overthrown. But this, too, does not matter because in any case Dany would have had to take the throne by force. None of the Westerosi really seem to support her for her claim, anyway, the Dornish and the Tyrells were in it for revenge (but I guess they're both out now), Yara and Theon for survival (and they're pretty much a non-entity at the moment, too) and, well, the Northeners under Jon may end up supporting her because they have bigger fish to fry, aka the survival of mankind, but without that I'm not sure they would care too much about her family's claim, either.

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6 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Agreed. Daenerys has a claim. It's a claim she will have to enforce with, well, force which makes it functionally the same as an invasion, which incidentally is what the Targaryens did in the first place: Landing at Dragonstone, having three dragons etc, the similarities are striking and obviously intentional both in-story and out.

"Having a claim" really doesn't mean all that much unless you can get a lot of people to agree that it is a good, valid claim, however - and that's where Dany's falls apart, since her father broke faith with a number of his lords and hence was overthrown. But this, too, does not matter because in any case Dany would have had to take the throne by force. None of the Westerosi really seem to support her for her claim, anyway, the Dornish and the Tyrells were in it for revenge (but I guess they're both out now), Yara and Theon for survival (and they're pretty much a non-entity at the moment, too) and, well, the Northeners under Jon may end up supporting her because they have bigger fish to fry, aka the survival of mankind, but without that I'm not sure they would care too much about her family's claim, either.

So what?  They supported her claim. Does it really matter why?  All Lords in the Seven Kingdoms have their own agenda. Supporting Daenerys fit their agenda. 

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3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

So what?  They supported her claim. Does it really matter why?  All Lords in the Seven Kingdoms have their own agenda. Supporting Daenerys fit their agenda. 

It matters if we're discussing whether her claim will get people to support her - and I'm saying that in this instance, they didn't really care about her claim at all.

If people are joining your cause for nothing but selfish reasons, then great they're joining you, but maybe one should have a moment of introspection as well. Of course Dany "If I look back I am lost" Targaryen is not really one for introspection.

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Just now, Mikkel said:

It matters if we're discussing whether her claim will get people to support her - and I'm saying that in this instance, they didn't really care about her claim at all.

If people are joining your cause for nothing but selfish reasons, then great they're joining you, but maybe one should have a moment of introspection as well. Of course Dany "If I look back I am lost" Targaryen is not really one for introspection.

Why? The goal is to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. She received fealty and support from two of those kingdoms and about a half of another (the Iron Islands). A time for "introspection" can come later after she take back the throne. You really think she should say" thank you for offering me your support but I can't accept it because you are doing it for selfish reasons"? 

 

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8 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Why? The goal is to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. She received fealty and support from two of those kingdoms and about a half of another (the Iron Islands). A time for "introspection" can come later after she take back the throne. You really think she should say" thank you for offering me your support but I can't accept it because you are doing it for selfish reasons"? 

 

Now where did I say anything like that? That's right, I didn't.

What I think she should do was maybe tone down on the entitled demands a wee bit and try to get the support of some lords/ladies who actually want to serve her, rather than use her as a convenient vehicle for revenge. Yes, as you point out she does have a "right" to feel entitled, and maybe she even has the means to follow through on it, but you know what that makes her? A tyrant and an oppressor, not a good Queen and definitely not a good person.

I don't even have a problem with her if that's what she wants to be, because then at least she would be a proper villain.

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7 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Why? The goal is to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. She received fealty and support from two of those kingdoms and about a half of another (the Iron Islands). A time for "introspection" can come later after she take back the throne. You really think she should say" thank you for offering me your support but I can't accept it because you are doing it for selfish reasons"? 

 

....you just said she inspires loyalty more than any person, now you are saying it's perfectly fine for people to join for selfish reasons. So the only armies she inspires are dothraki and unsullied. That's not a whole lot and none are westerosi 

Edited by Crona

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37 minutes ago, Crona said:

....you just said she inspires loyalty more than any person, now you are saying it's perfectly fine for people to join for selfish reasons. So the only armies she inspires are dothraki and unsullied. That's not a whole lot and none are westerosi 

I never said she inspired loyalty from Olenna, Ellaria or Yara for that matter. Quite frankly she didn't know them long enough to inspire that. What I did say was that she inspired loyalty among her closest followers, those that she has built relationships with over a period of time,  and the armies that follow her.

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On 8/1/2017 at 8:30 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

He did not come off as second best. In fact, he was presented as humble. And that is a great quality in a king. Jon does not need titles like Dany needs hers.

Yes!!!!

On 8/1/2017 at 9:27 AM, Nerevanin said:

I'd prefer simply "the King in the North". The endless string of Dany's titles is so over the top and so "look how cool and awesome I am". Jon doesn't need to boast about every single thing he has ever done. 

Hell yes!!

On 8/1/2017 at 9:52 AM, RhaenysB said:

The whole entire difference between Jon and Daenerys is that Jon doesn't need a crap ton of titles as some sort of weird self reassurance that he is the most amazing person in the world. Jon is a leader because others want him to lead and/or there's no one else to do the job. Jon doesn't need made up titles and nicknames to justify himself. 

Fuck yes!

On 8/1/2017 at 7:01 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

As Tywin Lannister said before 

''any man who must say I am the king is no true king''

I think this speaks volumes about Daenerys now.

Damn right!

Think about this, for anyone in the corporate environment, at the beginning of large meetings when people around the room are asked to introduce themselves... Who makes the best first impression - the person who spends five minutes listing their experience and background, or the person who simply states their name and role?  Confident people don't need to elaborate on their accomplishments.

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You guys crack me up and I hate to break it to you but if Jon becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms.... He is going to have lots of titles as all monarchs do.

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