norwaywolf123 Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 41 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said: Well, I thought I did a pretty decent job of explaining it. You quoted my statement. You even took the time to make the letters bigger, bold and italicized! lol IF Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret, Jon would be a legitimate son of Rhaegar, thus would have more claim to the throne. More than Dany, and certainly more than any Lannister. A son of Rhaegar > the brother/lover of the mother of the 2 bastard sons of Robert Baratheon, who stole the throne from the Targs, who ruled for 300 years... The Faith of the Seven dont recognise polygamous marriages i thought. Also Jons ancestry is a non factor unless it is known and accepted as the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaehaerys Stark Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: The Faith of the Seven dont recognise polygamous marriages i thought. Also Jons ancestry is a non factor unless it is known and accepted as the truth. The Faith is sort of irrelevant at this point, at least in the show. Plus, it wouldn't be the first polygamous Targ marriage, if polygamous at all. There could have been a secret divorce to go along with that secret marriage. Again, just conjecture. I was careful to clarify that this was all speculation on my part. A fantasy line of succession. Meaning I think it'd be cool if things played out this way. Nothing more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Stark said: Well, I thought I did a pretty decent job of explaining it. You quoted my statement. You even took the time to make the letters bigger, bold and italicized! lol IF Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret, Jon would be a legitimate son of Rhaegar, thus would have more claim to the throne. More than Dany, and certainly more than any Lannister. A son of Rhaegar > the brother/lover of the mother of the 2 bastard sons of Robert Baratheon, who stole the throne from the Targs, who ruled for 300 years... Thats the problem, your assuming, we dont know and we may never know. I highlighted to point out the fact we dont know its true, so going on what evidence and proof is available then by rights of succession, Jamie Lannister should be king FACT. Regardless of whether Jon snow is a legitimate Targargen, he still is not the rightful heir to the Throne, he has a claim I wont agree you that. But Succession is not a factor in the show as we know, its all about power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan La Cabra Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 16 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said: Thats the problem, your assuming, we dont know and we may never know. I highlighted to point out the fact we dont know its true, so going on what evidence and proof is available then by rights of succession, Jamie Lannister should be king FACT. Regardless of whether Jon snow is a legitimate Targargen, he still is not the rightful heir to the Throne, he has a claim I wont agree you that. But Succession is not a factor in the show as we know, its all about power. Sam, I know you briefly explained your reasons as to why Jaime is the heir in a previous post, but could you go into a bit more depth, please - maybe with a family tree as evidence? As I am quite lost on the reasons, but I want to see it the way you are seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Ive given you the family tree lol, or me laying out the names in the shape of tree for you will really make my answer credible???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan La Cabra Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, Samwell_Tarly said: Ive given you the family tree lol, or me laying out the names in the shape of tree for you will really make my answer credible???? I was thinking of the shape of the tree, as reading a family tree written out in a paragraph isn't always that easy to picture in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 If we really help that much have a look here https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/User:Eagle_of_Seagard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaehaerys Stark Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Samwell_Tarly said: Thats the problem, your assuming, we dont know and we may never know. I highlighted to point out the fact we dont know its true, so going on what evidence and proof is available then by rights of succession, Jamie Lannister should be king FACT. Regardless of whether Jon snow is a legitimate Targargen, he still is not the rightful heir to the Throne, he has a claim I wont agree you that. But Succession is not a factor in the show as we know, its all about power. I never claimed it to be facts. Not once. lol I keep pointing out that I used the terms "maybe", "assuming", "if"... I did that to make it clear that it is all conjecture. hence why I called it my own personal FANTASY line of succession. I'm not arguing that it's not based on facts. But the fact is that Jaime will NEVER sit on the Iron Throne. Nor does he deserve to. Hell, Cersei doesn't deserve to either. As you pointed out, succession is null and void on the show at this point. BUT, that said, I still don't think Jaime would be entitled. As I understand it, the line of succession moves UP, not down, when a king's line is ended. For example, the last known "legit" king, (used loosely as he was a bastard) was Tommen, right? When he died, the crown would go to his kids first, he had none. Then succession moves to his siblings, male first, then female, by age. Since both are dead and had no children, then succession moves to his fathers siblings, again, male before female, by age. Robert's only 2 siblings are both dead. Shireen would have been the heir, but she's dead too. So then succession moves UP to his paternal grandfathers line, which would have been Steffon Baratheon, who is dead and had no living brothers or sisters. Are you following? It can be confusing. Succession would not usually go this far up the line, as usually there is a living uncle or cousin not too far up the family tree that would inherit the throne, then succession moves back down the line through their kids. In this case, there just happen to be an entire tree of dead people. Very uncommon. Point is, the way succession works, Cersei and Jaime would not be considered as heirs to Tommen. They are not part of his paternal family tree. In a situation like this one, succession would be determined through a Great Council of maesters, but that is only in peace times. Since Westeros is in a war time, as you mentioned, power determines who sits on the throne. So yes, since Cersei TOOK the Iron Throne, Jaime would be considered next in line if she died without anymore kids, assuming nobody contests her but it is not due to the natural line of succession following Tommen's death... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 On 8/1/2017 at 10:56 AM, Samwell_Tarly said: Not going to happen, she was ready to take her own life and Tommens if KL fell to Stannis. 1. Stannis is a very different sort of person. Remember Davos' fingers? Treason is treason, and the penalty for treason is death. Stannis has a reputation for putting the letter of the law before pragmatism (I'm aware he is capable of pragmatism, such as his offer to Jon Snow, but his reputation for being unreasonably rule-bound remains.) 2. Offering terms of surrender is very different from being beaten in battle and getting your castle seized. In the latter, you get very little say in your fate; Cercei had no reason to expect anything but execution from Stannis, probably by fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyMormont Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 5 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: No one knows about Jon's Targaryen ancestry. It is a non factor. Yet. No one knows yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Up_Bxtch Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 13 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said: LOLOLOL - your so contradictive. you just said that Claims are subjective and you can have a claim for whatever reason, ive just give Jamie a claim. A Lannister married and Baratheon in his family but that was a great great great great uncle of his and not a direct ancestor of his since that Baratheon-Lannister marriage went nowhere so Jaime has no royal blood at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said: A Lannister married and Baratheon in his family but that was a great great great great uncle of his and not a direct ancestor of his since that Baratheon-Lannister marriage went nowhere so Jaime has no royal blood at all. If i understand this right. The lannister baratheon marriage would a meant that lannisters have baratheon blood and be the heirs of house baratheon. But the coupling was before rhaelle married steffon baratheons father (roberts grand dad). This would mean that jaime is the heir to house baratheon but have no blood claim on the iron throne or other targaryen claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 8 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said: If we really help that much have a look here https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/User:Eagle_of_Seagard These family trees are of my own creation, and I will admit that I have taken some liberties with them. A number of relationships are assumed... So not a reliable source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyMormont Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: If i understand this right. The lannister baratheon marriage would a meant that lannisters have baratheon blood and be the heirs of house baratheon. But the coupling was before rhaelle married steffon baratheons father (roberts grand dad). This would mean that jaime is the heir to house baratheon but have no blood claim on the iron throne or other targaryen claims. Unless they could go up until the first Baratheon, who is said to have been Aegon the Conquer's bastard brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 7 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said: So not a reliable source You cant just make quotes up lol, I never said it was my own creation. Its fact, thats how the family tree is. I could also give you a succession tree for Brienne of Tarth if you wanted, that actually made her the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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