u.s. politics: is this purity test covered under my obamacare?

[all swedes are racist]

10 hours ago, dmc515 said:

This is about the closest thing I can come to agreement regarding both sides of this Frum discussion.

On the one hand, I think building up Frum as some principled conservative is ridiculous.  It's the same type of alarming goal-post shifting the left now embraces with describing John Kasich as "moderate."  Really, the guy who spent six years acting like an asshole on Fox News is now "moderate?"  Similarly, the only "principles" Frum stands for is continuing to be a voice for an establishment wing of the GOP that doesn't really exist anymore.  His stances and advocacy would have far more merit in my eyes if they didn't always seem to conveniently coincide with a career move.  He's not as bad as, say David Brooks, who's much more hackish and clearly just wants to be the Republican liberals like.  His MO is more presenting himself as a conservative with a brain, retaining some shred of intellectual integrity and shame.  If you want a truly principled conservative you have to go all the way to George Will.

On the other hand, it's rather silly to impugn Frum's morals due to the Iraq War or his authorship of the axis of evil (actually his offering was axis of hatred).  He was a speechwriter doing his job, it's not like he played any type of role in the planning or execution of the war.  Would Dubya have done exactly the same thing leading up to and during the war if Frum never coined the phrase - or even if Frum never existed?  Unquestionably.  I'm not going to sit here and condemn Frum's supporting of the war as some cardinal sin because lots of people supported the war, including the New York Times and half the Democratic party.  Moreover, Frum has expressed regret for his support, repeatedly.

In conclusion, the best I can say about Frum is it is deeply depressing that I miss the days when he was the political enemy.  Or, to paraphrase the late great Frank Pentangeli - I'll do business with David Frum, I respect David Frum, but I'll never trust David Frum.

yeah, this is mostly fair, and i appreciate it. although, and i am pretty sure its not the point you are trying to get across, but the implication that either david frum OR the nyt/half the democrat party is beyond criticism for early support of iraq war is laughable. fuck all a them too. 

second, while i stand by my position, i'll grant i was coming on strong and abrasive, and would like to extend sincere and public apologies to m.e. and especially triskele for being douchey in the expression of my entirely correct opinion (winky smiley) it may not fully restore any goodwill i may have had with either of y'all, but know i still enjoy and respect y'alls contributions to the boards

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

the implication that either david frum OR the nyt/half the democrat party is beyond criticism for early support of iraq war is laughable. fuck all a them too. 

Fair enough - and I agree they're not beyond criticism (have done so quite a bit myself in the past).  That's why I was careful with my language there ("condemn").  While they were wrong and it's fine pointing that out, that doesn't mean they deserve to be in political purgatory forever like, oh, Bill Kristol.

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

Perhaps there is hope for the ACA after all...

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-administration-shifts-tone-on-obamacare-signals-openness-to-bipartisan-fix/ar-AApN4Za?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580

 

 

 

I think the administration realises that the ACA won't fail without them actively undermining it. And to actively undermine it risks a considerable electoral backlash. 

The big question is whether the ever diminishing moderate wing of the Republican congress is large enough for a deal that is widely acceptable to Democrats to get across the line in the House? It's possible to get something through the Senate since they only need 2 senators to vote with the Democrats and Pence will obviously break the tie in favour of what Trump wants.  But the House has a much wider chasm to bridge to get to 50%+1 with primarily Democratic support.

I doubt there are enough Republicans willing to be primaried by the nutjob wing for making a deal with Satan's librul minions. And the minute Trump actually starts to seriously work on healthcare with Democrats he's going to go from the conservative's conservative to being not conservative enough.

I imagine what they really want is for the Democrats to throw the outreach back in their face so that they can legit claim that failing to fix healthcare really is the Dem's fault. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

second, while i stand by my position, i'll grant i was coming on strong and abrasive, and would like to extend sincere and public apologies to m.e. and especially triskele for being douchey in the expression of my entirely correct opinion (winky smiley) it may not fully restore any goodwill i may have had with either of y'all, but know i still enjoy and respect y'alls contributions to the boards

Back atcha, big guy. No need to apologize. I find myself getting snarkier and snarkier of late, especially on the Politics threads. I think it's just a reflection of how frustrating our current situation is. I like the back and forth in any case. That's kind of what a political thread is all about at the end of the day.   

[all swedes are racist]

5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Fair enough - and I agree they're not beyond criticism (have done so quite a bit myself in the past).  That's why I was careful with my language there ("condemn").  While they were wrong and it's fine pointing that out, that doesn't mean they deserve to be in political purgatory forever like, oh, Bill Kristol.

yeah man, i get that that. makes sense. this is the kinder, gentler, softer leftist lobster (writing down names and moving them around like i'm sketching out the seating chart for a wedding reception, but for who goes where in the gulag) totally, dude, i feel ya... 

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

writing down names and moving them around like i'm sketching out the seating chart for a wedding reception

Just, for the love of god, don't invite Kristol to the wedding!

[all swedes are racist]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Just, for the love of god, don't invite Kristol to the wedding!

lmao

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

HOLY SHIT! Have you guys seen the Pence 46 site? CHECK IT THE FUCK OUT!

 http://www.officialmikepence.com/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

 

Mike Facts

• Mike Pence went to college.
• Mike Pence won 3rd prize in the 1972 Indiana Junior Corn Contest.
• Mike Pence likes to watch movies.
• Mike Pence carries a tri-fold wallet in his right back pocket.
• Mike Pence has won seven (7) penmanship awards.
• Mike Pence has a “Family RV” a “Personal RV” and a “Permanent RV” aka his house.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

HOLY SHIT! Have you guys seen the Pence 46 site? CHECK IT THE FUCK OUT!

 http://www.officialmikepence.com/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

This looks awesome, thanks.  If you click on "learn more" for Mike Facts:

Quote

• Mike Pence played baseball in high school until he suffered blunt trauma to his right testicle when a baseball hit it, rupturing the protective covering surrounding the right testicle as well as a contusion to the major blood vessel that, of course, resulted in massive bleeding and prolonged bruising that forced paramedics to cut through his baseball pants in the middle of a junior varsity game against high school rival Glen Oaks high school. All the girls at Mike’s high school were there and saw his bleeding bruised testicle and ruptured genitals. He played second base.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

This looks awesome, thanks.  If you click on "learn more" for Mike Facts:

 

Yeah, it's chock full of comedy gold. The drowning small dogs message at the bottom of the intro page killed me. I'm still wiping the tears out of my eyes.

[all swedes are racist]

hey, remember that current affairs article about the democrats running a "ghost candidate" in georgia?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/new-low-texas-democrats-dont-candidate-governor/

[DMC]

My favorite part from the Mike's Story section:

Quote

Exposing Disney’s Mulan soon emboldened Pence, then a heterosexual father- of-three with a hit public radio show under his belt, to run for congressional office in Indiana. With chants of “Pence for Congress,” “Boycott Mulan,” and “I Still Don’t Quite Understand Why We Are Boycotting Mulan,” Pence was elected to the US House of Representatives in 2000.

 

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

hey, remember that current affairs article about the democrats running a "ghost candidate" in georgia?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/new-low-texas-democrats-dont-candidate-governor/

This is the opening Mark Cuban needs!

And that article gets points for quoting Brandon Rottinghaus, one of the best congressional-presidential relations scholars we've got.

[Crazydog7]

Holy crap.  Whoever came up with that is a damn genius.  Check out the Breakfast page.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

56 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Yes, and Frum's record of being reasonable is not some recent anti-Trump thing.  He's been preaching this since like 2009.  To say that this guy sucks because he was Bush's speechwriter 14 years ago is a pretty absolutist stance.  

On top of that he has a perspective that is fresh for me, in that he is a Conservative insider. The way he breaks down how Trump has basically bent the GOP to his will is really insightful as I haven't really heard it being broken down from his angle. It's really invaluable I think in a "know your enemy" sort of a way. Just listened to a really interesting podcast with him this evening that was pretty enlightening for me, as most of what I listen to breaks this down from a lefty perspective.

 

 

That said, there are things he says here that I disagree with strongly from an ideological standpoint. All that aside, I find his perspective on Trump to be really compelling and thought provoking.

[ThinkerX]

6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I think the administration realises that the ACA won't fail without them actively undermining it. And to actively undermine it risks a considerable electoral backlash. 

The big question is whether the ever diminishing moderate wing of the Republican congress is large enough for a deal that is widely acceptable to Democrats to get across the line in the House? It's possible to get something through the Senate since they only need 2 senators to vote with the Democrats and Pence will obviously break the tie in favour of what Trump wants.  But the House has a much wider chasm to bridge to get to 50%+1 with primarily Democratic support.

I doubt there are enough Republicans willing to be primaried by the nutjob wing for making a deal with Satan's librul minions. And the minute Trump actually starts to seriously work on healthcare with Democrats he's going to go from the conservative's conservative to being not conservative enough.

I imagine what they really want is for the Democrats to throw the outreach back in their face so that they can legit claim that failing to fix healthcare really is the Dem's fault. 

You appear to be overlooking two things -

1 - First, you assume Trump is 'normal.'  Trump cares nothing about party or country, only personal wealth and popularity.  If he thinks it will increase his popularity, he will cut a deal of some sort with the Democratic Party...or try to. 

 

2 - Second, you can only go so far to the right before the base rebels.  That is happening NOW.  I have repeatedly linked to articles here that go into the extreme flack the conservative GOP congressmen are catching in their home districts (from Republicans!) about trying to repeal the ACA.  Flack right up to and including threats of physical violence.  This, from Republicans, AFTER the mass shooting at the softball field. 

[Inigima]

4 hours ago, Triskan said:

Yes, and Frum's record of being reasonable is not some recent anti-Trump thing.  He's been preaching this since like 2009.  To say that this guy sucks because he was Bush's speechwriter 14 years ago is a pretty absolutist stance.  

I was not aware that there was a statute of limitations on horror. How long before my terrible decisions don't count, specifically?

[denstorebog]

In other news that should freak you the fuck out, half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 election if Trump proposed it.

Honestly, while I know that this is not going to happen in practice, and that there's (probably, hopefully) a difference between what people believe on paper and in practice, and while I know that those 50% will be a lot less once 2020 rolls around - all of this has really been a lesson in how fragile democracy is, and how much the right wing views it as just a tool rather than the end goal. This shit just happened in the USA of all places. And there's no way that this isn't paving the way for a more subtle and likable strongman capitalizing on the exposed weaknesses down the line.

[Fez]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I think the administration realises that the ACA won't fail without them actively undermining it. And to actively undermine it risks a considerable electoral backlash. 

The big question is whether the ever diminishing moderate wing of the Republican congress is large enough for a deal that is widely acceptable to Democrats to get across the line in the House? It's possible to get something through the Senate since they only need 2 senators to vote with the Democrats and Pence will obviously break the tie in favour of what Trump wants.  But the House has a much wider chasm to bridge to get to 50%+1 with primarily Democratic support.

I doubt there are enough Republicans willing to be primaried by the nutjob wing for making a deal with Satan's librul minions. And the minute Trump actually starts to seriously work on healthcare with Democrats he's going to go from the conservative's conservative to being not conservative enough.

I imagine what they really want is for the Democrats to throw the outreach back in their face so that they can legit claim that failing to fix healthcare really is the Dem's fault. 

There's enough Tuesday Group Republicans in the House to pass any bipartisan deal with Democrats. However, they won't do it without cover in the form of House leadership being the ones to bring it to the floor and at least half of leadership voting for it as well.

Which does mean it's probably a one time shot at this point since if Ryan does it for anything major that's when the Freedom Caucus rebels and he loses his speakership. Let's hope he considers the debt ceiling fight next month worth it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, denstorebog said:

In other news that should freak you the fuck out, half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 election if Trump proposed it.

Honestly, while I know that this is not going to happen in practice, and that there's (probably, hopefully) a difference between what people believe on paper and in practice, and while I know that those 50% will be a lot less once 2020 rolls around - all of this has really been a lesson in how fragile democracy is, and how much the right wing views it as just a tool rather than the end goal. This shit just happened in the USA of all places. And there's no way that this isn't paving the way for a more subtle and likable strongman capitalizing on the exposed weaknesses down the line.

Wow, many folks can't see past their own noses, can they?