thelongnightisaloop

Endgame Theory [Contains Book Spoilers]

12 posts in this topic

Long time lurker but first time poster, so apologies if something similar has already been posted or if I am posting this in the wrong spot.

Dany’s betrayal for blood is when Jon has to kill her, his eventual loving wife, to forge Lightbringer to defeat the Night King, which actually turns out to be Bran – this is essentially the books'/series’ endgame. Bran is the Night King, Jon is Azor Ahai, and Dany is Nissa Nissa. And the Song of Ice and Fire is essentially a retelling of the story of the Long Night and one of the many iterations of the cyclical story of Ragnarok that plays out over and over again, explaining the cyclical nature of the climate and seasons of Westeros. Support for individual pieces of this theory are below. All the individual theory elements were put together by other, much more clever posters than myself, but it occurred to me that they are especially compelling when strung together. Links in the explanations below if you care to read more.

See https://www.reddit.com/r/gottheories/comments/6hq2ws/the_identity_of_the_night_king_based_on_tv/#bottom-comments for a very nice theory on Bran being the Night King. Additional support for Bran being the Night King comes from Old Nan’s stories which were not mentioned in the aforementioned theory because the OP was not a book reader. The textual support for Bran being the Night King hits it right on the nose, literally. From the books: “After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. “Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

And of course, it follows that Night King Bran is brought down by his brother in the end, who is Jon. Jon is Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised (see https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-trailer-melisandre-daenerys-azor-ahai-jon-snow-chosen-one for a discussion of this). Also, in S7E3, Melissandre says to Dany “I believe you have a role to play as does another” when speaking about the PtwP, which insinuates that Dany is important but perhaps not the actual PtwP. Moreover, in the books, when Mel looks in the flames for Azor Ahai she sees only “Snow” – note how odd it is that Snow is capitalized here, particularly if the PtwP is actually Dany, which seems to be the only other plausible alternative.

We now have evidence from the show that Bran is a time traveler and some suggestions that our Bran Stark is all the Bran Starks that have ever been, including Bran the Builder. See https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/05/the-game-of-thrones-theory-to-end-all-game-of-thro.html for a discussion of this theory. And some textual support from the books from Old Nan: "My stories?," she responds. "No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too." This, if true, is especially key because it really gets at the cyclical nature of the story being told here. Bran has willed the events of the past to happen, and is partially responsible for the cyclical nature of these events. He is essentially waiting for Jon to kill him, as he has inadvertently become the Night King by meddling in the past to try to stop the Night King, as he has interfered many times in the past as other Brandon Starks. As the old adage in BSG goes, “what has happened before will happen again.” The story of the Long Night – similar to the long winter, Fimbulvetr, in Ragnarok, the original song of ice and fire - is happening once again and only Azor Ahai (Jon) can end it. As Dorian the Historian explains in a glorious theory (http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html) Bran is Fenrir (the bound wolf), Dany is Jorumgandr (the world serpent), and Jon is Surtr (the one who wields a flaming sword) – all giants of the story who battle the gods.

This also got me thinking about the striking similarity in the word Jorumgandr and the “Horn of Joramun” that is said to “wake giants from the earth”. I imagine there has to be something to that, but I’m not exactly sure what it may be and would love to hear some of your theories.

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If the Night King was defeated how did he came to life as two different individuals at the same time and space=?

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That doesn't sound bitter sweet.  Just depressing..... 

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I think we can start trying to figure out pieces of the end game not just theorizing  but using hints that S7 is giving us. One firs piece is  the end of all the westerosi houses legitimate heirs or name in general (so not counting the bastards): Martells are gone, Tyrells are gone, Baratheons are gone and all others have a pretty fucked up situations by know. For instance Starks seems to be recovering but still: Sansa and Arya will not pass the name, Bran will not likely procreate, Jon not sure about his fertility coming back from the dead and anyway is not a Stark. Robert Arryn doesn't seem will have a long life, so does the Tully guy brother of Catelyn (sorry I don't remember the name). I could continue with Lannisters, Greyjoys, etc. but I will not go long on that; for different reasons I think that all of them will not produce heirs.

So I am starting imagining a country with a different power system: no lords, no big houses, no 7 kingdoms. Probably new westeros will be more similar to essos free cities system, but still with a capital that will coordinate the "common wealth" :-) No king, no Iron throne, just a Mayor and a council.

This I think is also an hint of what characters will make to the end game. Specifically the character that will suit best this new world: Tyrion, Sansa, Sam, Davos. All the character that are linked with either the throne scheming o the magical part of the story will die including Dany and Jon. This is necessary for the birth of the new world. 

 

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Sansa is heavily linked with the political scheming, as are Tyrion and Davos. The only one of the 4 you mentioned to survive who isnt is Sam, probably the one character most have predicted will survive whole series from when he was first introduced.

My question is, even if all the magic and those beings related to magic/prophecy die (white walkers, children of forest, Bran, Jon, Dany, red priests/priestesses, etc), is Westeros ready for a complete overhaul of their systems of governance (no more iron throne, no more great houses, no more lords etc). I dont think so.

I do believe that the Iron Throne may very well be destroyed and we will see the start of revolutionary change to the systems of government at end of series, but not the completed version.

I dont think all the great houses will be wiped out or replaced and I dont see either all seven kingdoms going completely separate ways nor uniting together fully under a new leader.  

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i say jon will die a tragically heroic death as some sort of messianic figure, taking the night king with him. dany dies with her dragons, maybe they leave and heir behind? but isnt she supposed to be barren? how is she supposed to continue her dynasty? littlefinger, who it looks like never really expects to be physically assaulted, will get so caught up in his political game, sure of his position, that he will never see it coming when some says "fuck the consequences" and runs him through. sandor returns to KL and takes out zombie gregor. i would love for cersie to be eaten. jaime dies trying to redeem his honor. sansa goes on to be lady of winterfell, has a child she names a stark. arya dies trying to murder somebody. where is gendry in all this? we see hot pie after 4 seasons, so where is the last baratheon bastard? if he shows, he can take the name.

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Wow, that Ragnarök theory is absolutely delicious. If the story really goes into the direction of ice and fire vs mankind then I'm all for it.

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On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:45 AM, Marada78 said:

I think we can start trying to figure out pieces of the end game not just theorizing  but using hints that S7 is giving us. One firs piece is  the end of all the westerosi houses legitimate heirs or name in general (so not counting the bastards): Martells are gone, Tyrells are gone, Baratheons are gone and all others have a pretty fucked up situations by know. For instance Starks seems to be recovering but still: Sansa and Arya will not pass the name, Bran will not likely procreate, Jon not sure about his fertility coming back from the dead and anyway is not a Stark. Robert Arryn doesn't seem will have a long life, so does the Tully guy brother of Catelyn (sorry I don't remember the name). I could continue with Lannisters, Greyjoys, etc. but I will not go long on that; for different reasons I think that all of them will not produce heirs.

So I am starting imagining a country with a different power system: no lords, no big houses, no 7 kingdoms. Probably new westeros will be more similar to essos free cities system, but still with a capital that will coordinate the "common wealth" :-) No king, no Iron throne, just a Mayor and a council.

This I think is also an hint of what characters will make to the end game. Specifically the character that will suit best this new world: Tyrion, Sansa, Sam, Davos. All the character that are linked with either the throne scheming o the magical part of the story will die including Dany and Jon. This is necessary for the birth of the new world. 

 

I've thought that for a while.  A lot of the houses are in a very precarious position, especially with the major lines.  Or the final outcome will be man has learned nothing and as soon as the war against the Others is done they go back to fighting among themselves to establish one King/Queen over the Seven Kingdoms.

As for the Targs? - Dany, Jon and Tyrion.  I don't believe any will make it out alive.  I think the Targ prophecy is to defeat the Night King and the line will be extinguished once the prophecy is complete.

And I think there has been way too much made about House Reyne for the same fate not to befall the Lannisters.

 

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I don't see all these book prophecies that have been barely touched on in the show coming to fruition.  I actually see both Jon and Dany surviving the White Walker threat to  come home and deal with Cersei/Euron ala the Scouring of the Shire.

Now it begs the question in the War for the Dawn who will die - many secondary/tertiary characters, I suspect.  Other than that who knows how they raise the stakes.

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36 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

I don't see all these book prophecies that have been barely touched on in the show coming to fruition.  I actually see both Jon and Dany surviving the White Walker threat to  come home and deal with Cersei/Euron ala the Scouring of the Shire.

Now it begs the question in the War for the Dawn who will die - many secondary/tertiary characters, I suspect.  Other than that who knows how they raise the stakes.

There's a good chance both Dany and Jon survive in the show considering how much the showrunners have disgustingly made GoT all about them and Cersei this season. Everyone else is relegated to a secondary character pretty much (ugh!).

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On 1/8/2017 at 8:46 PM, thelongnightisaloop said:

Long time lurker but first time poster, so apologies if something similar has already been posted or if I am posting this in the wrong spot.

Dany’s betrayal for blood is when Jon has to kill her, his eventual loving wife, to forge Lightbringer to defeat the Night King, which actually turns out to be Bran – this is essentially the books'/series’ endgame. Bran is the Night King, Jon is Azor Ahai, and Dany is Nissa Nissa. And the Song of Ice and Fire is essentially a retelling of the story of the Long Night and one of the many iterations of the cyclical story of Ragnarok that plays out over and over again, explaining the cyclical nature of the climate and seasons of Westeros. Support for individual pieces of this theory are below. All the individual theory elements were put together by other, much more clever posters than myself, but it occurred to me that they are especially compelling when strung together. Links in the explanations below if you care to read more.

See https://www.reddit.com/r/gottheories/comments/6hq2ws/the_identity_of_the_night_king_based_on_tv/#bottom-comments for a very nice theory on Bran being the Night King. Additional support for Bran being the Night King comes from Old Nan’s stories which were not mentioned in the aforementioned theory because the OP was not a book reader. The textual support for Bran being the Night King hits it right on the nose, literally. From the books: “After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. “Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

And of course, it follows that Night King Bran is brought down by his brother in the end, who is Jon. Jon is Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised (see https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-trailer-melisandre-daenerys-azor-ahai-jon-snow-chosen-one for a discussion of this). Also, in S7E3, Melissandre says to Dany “I believe you have a role to play as does another” when speaking about the PtwP, which insinuates that Dany is important but perhaps not the actual PtwP. Moreover, in the books, when Mel looks in the flames for Azor Ahai she sees only “Snow” – note how odd it is that Snow is capitalized here, particularly if the PtwP is actually Dany, which seems to be the only other plausible alternative.

We now have evidence from the show that Bran is a time traveler and some suggestions that our Bran Stark is all the Bran Starks that have ever been, including Bran the Builder. See https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/05/the-game-of-thrones-theory-to-end-all-game-of-thro.html for a discussion of this theory. And some textual support from the books from Old Nan: "My stories?," she responds. "No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too." This, if true, is especially key because it really gets at the cyclical nature of the story being told here. Bran has willed the events of the past to happen, and is partially responsible for the cyclical nature of these events. He is essentially waiting for Jon to kill him, as he has inadvertently become the Night King by meddling in the past to try to stop the Night King, as he has interfered many times in the past as other Brandon Starks. As the old adage in BSG goes, “what has happened before will happen again.” The story of the Long Night – similar to the long winter, Fimbulvetr, in Ragnarok, the original song of ice and fire - is happening once again and only Azor Ahai (Jon) can end it. As Dorian the Historian explains in a glorious theory (http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html) Bran is Fenrir (the bound wolf), Dany is Jorumgandr (the world serpent), and Jon is Surtr (the one who wields a flaming sword) – all giants of the story who battle the gods.

This also got me thinking about the striking similarity in the word Jorumgandr and the “Horn of Joramun” that is said to “wake giants from the earth”. I imagine there has to be something to that, but I’m not exactly sure what it may be and would love to hear some of your theories.

Your last link is a fascinating reading. It is obvious that the symbolic connections between GRRM work and the Ragnarok are too many to be by coincidence, so the logical conclusion is that GRRM took many elements of it as a source of inspiration. That said,  I do not believe that the characters in his story fulfill the same role, nor that they can be identified as clearly as the author of that essay believes. GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire  is a different one, but the symbolic connections are there, and the author of that essay did indeed a job that is an absolute pleasure to read.
I also do not think that all the theories that you bring up in your post are compatible, for example the author of the last one assumes that the Night King is Jon, and that Azor Ahai is Jaime, not Bran and Jon respectively as the author of the first theory.
Anyway, thank you for bringing up this. A lot of food for thought.:D

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