So did anyone else notice dany just broke the laws of hospitality?

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 8/4/2017 at 11:35 AM, hallam said:

Jon broke no oath. The oath is only binding till death. Jon died, the oath no longer binds him, that is the point.

The guest right is only granted when a person is greeted as a guest and has eaten the bread and salt of the host. It is not any food, it is very specific. This is not a nitpick, the rules of guest right are intentionally narrow.

Jon accepted an invitation to come and bend the knee. So he should probably have expected to be unable to leave without doing so.

Jon came to ask an unreasonable favor and was too stubborn to give up anything in return.  Dany allowed him to mine the Dragon Glass so in my opinion, Jon owes Dany.  

On 8/4/2017 at 4:12 PM, snow is the man said:

uh you do remember that she started up before he asked for anything and jon was not acting like an asshole. And he didn't demand to borrow dany and her dragons he just told her the truth.

I'm siding with Widowmaker 811 on this.  Jon came in with no intentions of negotiating or anything.  He came to ask for Dany's armies, obsidians, and her dragons.  He came without any proof.  No corroborating testimony and expected Dany to give him what he wanted.  Talk about an entitled asshole.  That is Jon.   

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:30 PM, SansaJonRule said:

I should have guessed since you sounded like you were channeling Jack Sparrow ☺

I wondered if guest right was primarily a northern thing, but wasn't there some mention of it in relation to the Red Wedding?

Yes, but the Neck is part of the north, even though the Freys answer to Riverrun.

In the book, guest right, or some form of it, is honored throughout Westeros, and even on Essos, but only in the north is violation described as an affront to the gods. The rest of the world appears to treat it as more of a courtesy that is necessary for diplomatic relations between houses -- thus, more of a guideline than a law.

 

[falcotron]

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but the Neck is part of the north, even though the Freys answer to Riverrun.

They Twins are not in the Neck, they're on the first river crossing south of it, which is why they're part of the Riverlands, and answer to Riverrun. The only people who actually live in the Neck are the crannogmen (House Reed and their vassals).

Also, the Freys are culturally Riverlanders, not Northerners. They have Andal blood, follow the Seven rather than the Old Gods, and have always been part of Riverlands politics and trade. (Although, at least in the novels, "always" only means a few centuries; they were founded by a man from near the Trident who came north with the dream of bridging the Green Fork—but that hardly makes them less Riverlanders.)

Meanwhile, I don't think the question of whether it's a "law" or not is really a good question in a pre-common-law feudal system like Westeros. Judgments are made by the relevant Lord, and you will be punished if the Lord thinks this violation of tradition shouldn't go unpunished. (Or if you ask for trial by combat and lose.) Beyond establishing issues of act, the judgments we've seen or heard about, both civil and criminal, have all been based on pragmatic issues, not legal arguments.

Finally, law or no law, people talk about the Freys as scum, in places as far away as the Reach. I doubt Reachers care about the legends of the Old Gods punishing violators of guest right; the Freys have broken a societal taboo that's on the same level as the other biggies, like kingslaying.

[SansaJonRule]

On 8/6/2017 at 6:57 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but the Neck is part of the north, even though the Freys answer to Riverrun.

In the book, guest right, or some form of it, is honored throughout Westeros, and even on Essos, but only in the north is violation described as an affront to the gods. The rest of the world appears to treat it as more of a courtesy that is necessary for diplomatic relations between houses -- thus, more of a guideline than a law.

 

I need to reread the books!

[DarkBastard]

Technically speaking (according to GRRM), Jon is dead so I'm not sure how guest rights apply to the dead.  Davos sure, his heart is still beating.  Its all semantics.  Dany declared he wasn't a prisoner (yet).  Maybe she took his ship for safekeeping, as she is required by guest rights to protect her guests.  There is a formidable danger on the Narrow Sea at this point, one could argue she is enforcing guest rights by not allowing them to go off into harms way, granting them freedom within the castle until the "danger" has passed.

A wise man once said:  "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."