snow is the man

So did anyone else notice dany just broke the laws of hospitality?

85 posts in this topic

There are a couple loopholes Dany can exploit to avoid breaking the laws of hospitality openly:

First, she could argue that Jon isn't a guest; he is a rebel lord who was ordered to come to his queen to await judgement. He would be similar to an outlaw who is taken to be judged to a lord's castle, being fed there doesn't give him guest rights...

Second, Dany hasn't hurt or locked Jon up, she has just forbidden any ship to take him away... Jon is free to go, a pity he can't fly or swim to the continent...

But yes, if I were a character in Planetos, I would never, never, never ever go meet Dany. When she is in a position of strength, it's either showing utter devotion to her, or being the target or threats and humilliation, or even physical damage and death. Dany doesn't negotiate, she asks you "serve me, love me, fight for me, or die!".

 

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11 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

Jon did not break any oath, although I admit Dani does not know it. Nor she knows what “the laws of the kingdom” are, which is her excuse for not wondering how a former Commander of the Night’s Watch can be the current King in the North.

Dany possibly doesn't know this. But Tyrion should know this and wonder, how a former member of the Night's Watch can be King in the North.

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Nope. Not a single hair fell off Jon's head. He wasn't slapped, smacked on the head, tickled, nobody kicked his ankle, stepped on his toe nor poured a glass of cold water down his shirt. Bottom line, he hasn't been harmed in any way. His situation is closer to Cat's when she was Renly's guest.

“My lord,” she announced. “If you are set on battle, my purpose here is done. I ask your leave to return to Riverrun.”

“You do not have it.” Renly seated himself on a camp chair.

And Cat, while not liking it one bit, doesn't think for a second of the situation as breaking the guest right (and she would know). In the Seven Kingdoms, "I ask your leave" is a real question, not a rhetorical one, sometimes the answer is negative, and that's widely accepted.

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6 hours ago, Marlom said:

Dany possibly doesn't know this. But Tyrion should know this and wonder, how a former member of the Night's Watch can be King in the North.

Yes. Tyrion doesn't seem in his best shape this season, his battle plans are terrible, my grandma would do better. 
I guess that the explanation is that the plot requires that no one knows, or very few people,  about Jon's death and resurecction at this point, so they make all people surrounding Jon to overlook obvious things. Not only Tyrion, it bothered me a lot last season when none of the northen lords raised the question of Jon leaving the Night's Watch.  In the first episode of the show, we got Ned beheading a NW's deserter, and now everybody went amnesic about rules.
Anyway, there's a thread about the plot holes, there are some much worse than this one.

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12 hours ago, Gala said:

Yes, that was my point exactly.

As for KIt Harrington - I liked his deep sigh, when she started her "you came to bend the knee" speech.

Oh I know that was your point. Sorry if it seemed otherwise I must have explained myself wrong. Also that was pretty awesome when he sighed during that speech.

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On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:56 PM, snow is the man said:

She essentially made jon and his men prisoners in all but name. Jon had his men disarm just like she wanted and followed every rule and yet she took his ship and stranded him on her island. She also basically said they were being sent to rooms where they would have a bath and meals. Kinda sounds like she was locking them in a very nice prison cell doesn't it. Yes she eventually let him out and yes he could walk around the island but he couldn't leave. I understood why she did it in astapor (essentially broke the rules) and even liked it but she had invited jon to dragonstone which pretty much means he is supposed to be safe. I have liked dany in previous seasons but this was unacceptable.  Why is noone else mentioning this

The rules of hospitality require you to eat their food and drink their beverages, which Jon did not do.

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35 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The rules of hospitality require you to eat their food and drink their beverages, which Jon did not do.

We know that food was being brought up to their rooms... so once they eat and drink, they *should* be safe. Would Dany know about this? If not, Tyrion would most certainly advise her. Fate/ The Gods came for Walder Frey after the Red Wedding, after all. :ph34r:

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On 02/08/2017 at 8:29 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

Dany's not the queen. 

The NK is a treath to every single Westerosi. Dany  can't ''wait out the winter'' bc if that happens, when she returns there will be no kingdom to rule.

The guest rules apply to everyone, no matter if they are '''''''rebellious bastards''''''.

"When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked."

And Jon died. He was free of the NW oath. 

" Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

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24 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

We know that food was being brought up to their rooms... so once they eat and drink, they *should* be safe. Would Dany know about this? If not, Tyrion would most certainly advise her. Fate/ The Gods came for Walder Frey after the Red Wedding, after all. :ph34r:

They are safe. As mentioned  above not single hair has been harmed on Jon's man bun.  People are being way too overdramatic in this thread.

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On 8/2/2017 at 7:29 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Jon broke no oath. The oath is only binding till death. Jon died, the oath no longer binds him, that is the point.

The guest right is only granted when a person is greeted as a guest and has eaten the bread and salt of the host. It is not any food, it is very specific. This is not a nitpick, the rules of guest right are intentionally narrow.

Jon accepted an invitation to come and bend the knee. So he should probably have expected to be unable to leave without doing so.

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7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

They are safe. As mentioned  above not single hair has been harmed on Jon's man bun.  People are being way too overdramatic in this thread.

Jon is perfectly free to leave, he just has to swim.

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33 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

We know that food was being brought up to their rooms... so once they eat and drink, they *should* be safe. Would Dany know about this? If not, Tyrion would most certainly advise her. Fate/ The Gods came for Walder Frey after the Red Wedding, after all. :ph34r:

But that doesn't matter once they have already been "arrested" for lack of a better word.  Dany invited them there for a specific reason, to bend the knee, not just to chit chat.  When they refused she had them arrested as everyone told Jon she would, because otherwise Dany is saying ok your my equal because you don't have to obey me.  They are not being offered guest rights with the food brought to their rooms, nor were they already under it when Dany had them arrested.

You can say it was rude of her, or a bad idea, but it was not a violation of guest rights.

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15 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

But that doesn't matter once they have already been "arrested" for lack of a better word.  Dany invited them there for a specific reason, to bend the knee, not just to chit chat.  When they refused she had them arrested as everyone told Jon she would, because otherwise Dany is saying ok your my equal because you don't have to obey me.  They are not being offered guest rights with the food brought to their rooms, nor were they already under it when Dany had them arrested.

You can say it was rude of her, or a bad idea, but it was not a violation of guest rights.

It also reinforces the whole "you know nothing, King in the North" theme.

the show-runners think we viewers are stupid enough to believe that Jon Snow is in some mortal danger when treating with "the Mad Queen's daughter."

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I checked it in Episode 2: Jon says "Tyrion Lannister invited me...". It is not "summoned" like Cersei wrote in her letter. Sounds to me like being accorded free conduct or so. If not, Jon should have asked for such in a response letter before going to Dragonstone. I would thus put the blame on Jon, not to have negotiated the conditions for his visit in a professional way.

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On Invalid Date at 4:16 PM, SansaJonRule said:

Guest right is much more thana guideline. It is an ancient sacred tradition considered to be punishable by the gods if broken. Remember Bran telling Meera and Jojen the story of the rat king? 

yes, I was joking.

But it's also more of a northern thing than Westerosi wide, so Dany is probably not fully immersed in the custom -- although Tyrion and Varys should be. Then again, they never did the whole bread-and-salt thing and no harm has yet come to Jon or his men, so there is probably some wiggle-room as far as people's perspectives are concerned. I can't speak for the gods.

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On 8/3/2017 at 0:48 AM, Mikkel said:

Actually, "harmed" and "physically harmed" are two different things. Taking someone prisoner certainly qualifies as harming them, particularly when their duties are on a very tight schedule (Jon is always fretting about time wasted). I'm not saying killing them and taking them prisoner are equal, obviously the former is a more egregious breaking of guest right, but they both qualify.

If you want to get all rules-lawyery, Dany feeds Jon and Davos while explicitly saying they're not prisoners, so Guest Right is definitely invoked then and there. Whether she will allow them to leave when they wish (presumably after mining the dragonglass) will show whether guest right was truly broken or just bent. If she had not agreed to let Jon mine dragonglass, it would've been broken already, since he then clearly wishes to leave, but is not allowed to (his cell may be the size of the castle, but he's still a prisoner in all but name).

Medieval cultures did not recognize emotional harm as a viable concern. Physical harm was all that counted except for some egregious cases of obvious psychological torture. They did not much care about whether they interrupted someone's tight schedule.

True.

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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What I noticed is Jon acting like a complete asshole.  So you come in, demand to borrow Dany's dragons and her armies, and wants to mine the Dragonglass from the island.  Wanting all of that and then refusing to bend the knee!  What kind of a reception did that asshole expect?  I'm surprised the audience in the throne room didn't laugh at Jon's story.  I was waiting for that idiot to describe the NK like a blue pineapple.  

Dany should have fed that stubborn fool to her dragons.  Allowing him to mine the obsidian and providing help was very, very generous.  

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Jon is a rebel.  He doesn't get to enjoy the protection of guest rights.  Any monarch would have executed Jon on sight.  

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4 hours ago, Fexyr said:

Dany's not the queen. 

The NK is a treath to every single Westerosi. Dany  can't ''wait out the winter'' bc if that happens, when she returns there will be no kingdom to rule.

The guest rules apply to everyone, no matter if they are '''''''rebellious bastards''''''.

"When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked."

And Jon died. He was free of the NW oath. 

" Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

Actually if what we know about the long night then even if she left she would die as would everyone since it would never be summer again and everyone would die of freezing to death or of starvation since no food would grow. So she has even more of a reason to fight the NK.

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6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

What I noticed is Jon acting like a complete asshole.  So you come in, demand to borrow Dany's dragons and her armies, and wants to mine the Dragonglass from the island.  Wanting all of that and then refusing to bend the knee!  What kind of a reception did that asshole expect?  I'm surprised the audience in the throne room didn't laugh at Jon's story.  I was waiting for that idiot to describe the NK like a blue pineapple.  

Dany should have fed that stubborn fool to her dragons.  Allowing him to mine the obsidian and providing help was very, very generous.  

uh you do remember that she started up before he asked for anything and jon was not acting like an asshole. And he didn't demand to borrow dany and her dragons he just told her the truth.

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