Jaime in Maggy's prophecy [SPOILERS]

[oliander]

I just had a thought on who Maggy the Frog might be referring to when she says, "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." So to look at some of the popular options...

Margaery seems like the biggest red herring for the theory. She becomes queen, she's younger and more beautiful, and she's taking Cersei's role and her children away from her. Cersei seems positive Margaery is the one who will cast her down, which pretty much assures us she can't be the one referred to in the prophecy.

Dany is the next to come to mind. She also fills all of the descriptions in the prophecy, but I don't think she is being referred to for two reasons. By the time Dany comes to Westeros, Cersei has essentially lost everything she holds dear already: her father, her children, Jaime's love, her looks... (mixing in some show with the books here). The only thing she has left is her power, at least in GoT, and she clearly has a tremulous hold on that. So I don't think Dany could be held responsible for taking ALL she holds dear. The second reason I don't believe it's Dany is because it seems to be hinted she will never be the queen of Westeros. There are a lot of subtle hints that she will get close to ruling the seven kingdoms, but not quite reach her goal. Such as the prophecy in the House of the Undying in the show when she almost touches the iron throne, then backs off. I also don't think Martin would give that clean of an ending. So if Dany doesn't take what Cersei holds dear, and it's likely (in my mind) that she won't be queen, she's probably not the one being referred to in the prophecy. Also seems like too obvious of a choice.

Brienne is a much less obvious choice. Martin has made the purposeful choice of having Cersei constantly commenting on (and degrading) the appearances of other women. Even Margaery, who is supposed to be outlandishly beautiful and similar to Lyanna Stark, she describes as flat-chested and bird-legged, I believe. This may just be a reflection on Cersei's own looks as a source of her power, and as they're fading, she's becoming defensive and feels the need to deride the appearances of other women, but it would be great if it is to contrast Cersei's idea of beauty with Brienne's inner beauty. She may be part of the reason Jaime's love for Cersei has faded, but she also 'delivered' Jaime to King's Landing after his imprisonment, so I don't think she'd be the one to take all that she holds dear. She would be capable of casting her down, but I don't think there's much other evidence for Brienne being the referenced one.

Sansa has also been thrown around as an option, but I don't see much evidence there either.

I believe the one who will cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear is Jaime. Of course he is not and never will be a queen, but the prophecy doesn't state it will be a queen. It only says "until there comes another," which is a common way of saying another person. This seems like just the kind of tricky wording prophecies are known for.

Starting with the younger and more beautiful: Jaime is known to be younger, having been born holding Cersei's toe (also important to the valonqar theory), and I would also argue he's more beautiful. The series begins with constant comments on how similar the twins appear, but after Jaime's imprisonment, Martin makes a point of mentioning how different they look. In AFfC, it's mentioned that Cersei isn't aging well and hinted that she is gaining weight from her drinking. After Jaime recovers from his imprisonment and returns to being a 'white knight,' and Cersei has her hair sheared (which is what is constantly referred to when her beauty was mentioned), it would be easy to argue that Jaime is more beautiful than Cersei. We can also look at it from a goodness point of view, with Jaime becoming a better person and so more 'beautiful,' and Cersei spiraling downward, losing any interior beauty.

Moving onto taking all she holds dear. What does Cersei hold dear? Her children, her father, her brother, her looks, her pride, her power. Has Jaime taken those? We have to mix evidence from the show for some of these.

In terms of her children, Joffrey dies. It's implied that Cersei blames Jaime for not being there to protect him (because he hadn't yet been delivered from his imprisonment). His imprisonment is also part of the reason the Lannisters had to ally with the Tyrells, who killed Joffrey. With Myrcella (show), Jaime travels to Dorne in order to bring Myrcella home, and because of her departure, Ellaria Sand kills her, so it could be said that Jaime was indirectly the cause of her death. Same kind of extenuating circumstances for Tommen (show).

Jaime is more directly responsible for the taking of her father, as he freed Tyrion, allowing him to kill Tywin. In freeing Tyrion, Jaime also took Cersei's chance for 'revenge' on Tyrion, something she also held very dear (likely because of her paranoia over the valonqar). 

As Jaime becomes a better person, he becomes disenchanted with his sister. He also looks less like her, something she held dear about him. So Jaime takes his love away from Cersei.

When Cersei is imprisoned by the faith because of her incest (even though it's technically because of her activities with Lancel, but everyone knows it's Jaime she's sinned with), she loses her looks and her pride on the walk of shame. Her reputation of incest (with Jaime) has lost her her looks and her pride. 

Now more strictly looking at the show, Cersei is queen, but it's clear she does not have a good hold on her power. She seems to deny to herself that she is in a bad place, and it is Jaime pushing her to realize they have no allies, things are not going well, and so in the way Cersei's mind twists things, Jaime is taking her power. He's also constantly questioning her and undermining her decisions in the books, something Cersei says in AFfC that no one would ever do to Tywin, so in that, he is taking her power, because power is in perception. 

So, Jaime is younger and more beautiful, and he's at least indirectly responsible for all Cersei has lost. Based on those criteria, I think he's the strongest candidate for being the 'other' in the prophecy, which means he will cast her down. I believe him fulfilling this part of the prophecy suggests that he is also the valonqar. Maggy says, "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." So once Cersei has lost all she holds dear, a younger brother will kill her. I believe Jaime will cast her down by choking her to death with his good hand and his gold hand, drawing a nice parallel to Tyrion killing Shae with the chain of golden hands, both doomed romances.

I also find it hard to believe that Martin would draw so many parallels between the two mad monarchs that Jaime has felt compelled to serve without drawing the parallel of Jaime killing them both. Jaime also mentions throughout the books how he only ever fights with his sword, rather than other weapons like poison or words, so it would be a good symbol of the changes Jaime's character has made to have him kill with his hands instead.

Anyway, to recap, Jaime is both the one who will cast Cersei down and take all she holds dear and the valonqar. Let me know what you think! 

[Lord Vance II]

Seeing as how Jaime is the odds-on favorite to be the Valonqar (with Tyrion being the red herring), him also being the "younger and more beautiful" seems redundant. And since he fits the Valonqar much better, I'm still thinking the "younger and more beautiful" is someone else. Jaime being responsible for all Cersei's loss sounds like victim blaming to me. 

It is a good point that adult Cersei has always assumed the "younger and more beautiful" would be another queen but it doesn't have to be. 

But most importantly, don't bring the show in here. There's a whole other forum for that, though you didn't go too far I suppose. 

[oliander]

13 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

But most importantly, don't bring the show in here. There's a whole other forum for that, though you didn't go too far I suppose. 

Yeah, I thought it would be better to post in the books forum with a little show content than the show forum with a lot of book content. 

 

14 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Seeing as how Jaime is the odds-on favorite to be the Valonqar (with Tyrion being the red herring), him also being the "younger and more beautiful" seems redundant. And since he fits the Valonqar much better, I'm still thinking the "younger and more beautiful" is someone else.

Is there a reason him being one would make it less likely he's the other? I've come to think of the prophecies as if it gives you a reason to expect something (like it referring to two different people), expect the opposite. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

27 minutes ago, oliander said:

I also find it hard to believe that Martin would draw so many parallels between the two mad monarchs that Jaime has felt compelled to serve without drawing the parallel of Jaime killing them both. Jaime also mentions throughout the books how he only ever fights with his sword, rather than other weapons like poison or words, so it would be a good symbol of the changes Jaime's character has made to have him kill with his hands instead.

 

If the 'younger and more beautiful' character was also the 'valonqar', it wouldn't have what appears to be two separate sections in the prophecy. I think if it was speaking of the same person, it would connect the two prophesised events a bit better, rather than leaving it looking like it is speaking about two separate people and two separate events. It would be more like:

"Queen you shall be... until there comes the valonqar, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. And when your tears have drowned you, he shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Although what you say in the section I have quoted above is exactly my thoughts, too. I think everything with Jaime and Aerys is foreshadowing for what will happen with Jaime and Cersei.

[Lord Vance II]

8 minutes ago, oliander said:

Is there a reason him being one would make it less likely he's the other?

The link between Jaime and the Valonqar is simple - He is technically her little brother. 

You just spent several paragraphs trying to build the link between Jaime and "younger and more beautiful," and a lot hinges on him aging better, which is kind of common in men. 

13 minutes ago, oliander said:

I've come to think of the prophecies as if it gives you a reason to expect something (like it referring to two different people), expect the opposite. 

Always expecting the unexpected leaves you open to surprise by the mundane.

Prophecy is a crapshoot anyways. I put a little more stock in this one because we know who made it and when, as opposed to prophecies thousands of years old. But for all we know Cersei mis-remembers it decades later and Arya will murder her or something. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Love it! Not positive it's right but we aren't positive anything is right in ASoIaF. 

The link to Jaime taking all Cersei holds dear is weak but I don't agree that the prophecy would have linked the 2 (valonqar & more beautiful) any more than it has. In fact I think them being the same person fits nicely because of the way it is worded. "Aye. Queen you shall be...until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear" The pause in between saying Queen you shall be & the rest could imply a separation between those two statements meaning it is NOT another Queen that takes all she holds dear, just another. 

I've always wondered why Maggy says "the valonqar" instead of just "valonqar". Because you wouldn't say "The little brother shall wrap his hands ..." You would say "Your little brother" I've always chalked it up to the translation & valayrian not having the same sentence structuring as English. Which could absolutely be the case. But if it isn't the only other reasons I can think of to say The valonqar or The little brother would be if there was someone who specifically went by that name or title. Ex: The Pope

Or possibly if Cersei had only one brother maybe maggy would say The little brother since there was only one so he was indeed the little brother. 

But maybe Maggy says the little brother because she has just mentioned him in the question before. Let's plug Jaime & the little brother in the prophecy:

 

"Aye. Queen you shall be... until Jaime comes, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear"

 

"...and when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

To me the wording makes more sense if they are the same person. Of course that doesn't necessarily make it Jaime. It could be any number of people. I suppose you could plug Tyrion in there. Wouldn't it be comical if he were the younger, more beautiful? 

As I said I think the link to Jaime being the one who takes all she holds dear is weak BUT it being another Queen is even weaker IMO. 

We have seen Cersei lose some of what she holds dear already: All of her kids & father are dead. Granted we haven't read the last 2 children's death but I think it's safe to say Myrcella will die as a direct result to her time in Dorne whether or not it's exactly like it was on screen. So who are our candidates for the younger more beautiful queen according to this thread?  

Margaery: while she may be linked to Joffrey's death & possibly even Tommen's I think it's highly unlikely she will be linked to Myrcella's for a multitude of reasons & I cannot even fathom a way she could be linked to Tywin's. Also I would say it's highly unlikely that Margaery is the Queen that takes power from Cersei. She definitely isn't linked to reason Jaime is distancing himself from her.

Dany: while she could be the one to take power from Cersei she was not linked to Joffrey or Tywin's deaths & I would be hard pressed to think of a way she would be linked to the death of Tommen or Myrcella. She definitely isn't the reason for Jaime. 

Brienne: She may be part of the reason for Jaime & I suppose at some point she could take power from Cersei but absolutely no link to the rest

Sansa: She may be linked to Joffrey & possibly even to Tywin's death in Cersei's mind but no link for the rest. 

My point is I think the "another" most certainly has to be separate from the "Aye. You shall be Queen..." statement & the person who is more beautiful & will take all she holds dear has to be someone only indirectly related to the events the way the poster has laid out about Jaime. 

Olenna almost certainly killed Joffrey & Tyrion absolutely killed Tywin. I think there is a good chance Myrcella will die in Dorne so that adds a 3rd person & Brienne is probably responsible for Jaime becoming distant adding a 4th person. 

Since Jaime is indirectly related to all known events, albeit very indirectly at times, I could see him being the younger more beautiful. 

 

 

[Makk]

For a complete crackpot prediction - Elia, Lady Lance. Will marry fAegon (against Jon Conningtons protestations) and briefly be the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms before Daenerys arrives.

[FirstofHerName]

This really needs to not have show spoilers. Not only does the show have 0 bearing or influence on the book plot line but I and many others are trying to avoid show spoilers. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Beauty and the Kingslayer will fulfil both prophecies hand in hand.