Jump to content

Khal drogo marrying Dany, why?


Ser Loras The Gay

Recommended Posts

On 8/12/2017 at 10:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

What are you talking about? Varys doesn't need to arrange for an assassin. He just spreads word that King will grant anybody that managed to kill Dany a lordship, which is exactly what Robert ordered him to do. Simple. Done. He doesn't get his hands dirty, nothing is traced back to him, as is his style. If Robert wanted him to hire an assassin he would have said "go hire an assassin".

But Varys doesn't want Dany to die.  He constantly is sending her help and succor.  So instead of doing the most effective thing (spending money on a real assassin, or spreading word about the lordship), he does the least effective thing from Robert's standpoint - hires one inept assassin so he can claim he did his job, and warns Jorah about the attempt so he can thwart it.

On 8/12/2017 at 10:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

it also raises other questions, like why Jorah doesn't later tell Dany that Varys and Illyrio set her up. He had the perfect opportunity in ASOS, when he was trying to convince Dany that Illyrio is not to be trusted. The wineseller even comes up.

Because if he exposes them, he exposes himself?  Wasn't that kind of obvious?

On 8/12/2017 at 10:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Jorah took out the letter, a pretty damn stupid move if it contained anything damning him. You suggest that the info might have been in some of the other intel Jorah was receiving, but not only does that disprove your previous claim that the wineseller being planted+Jorah being in on it appeals to Occam's Razor,

Unless the letter is in code?  Or unless a second letter comes in?  I agree that normally, that would be a pretty labored explanation, but we're already dealing in a whole bunch of espionage and plotting.  It makes perfect sense that Jorah, who at this point is still spying on Dany for Robert, has some secret means of communication.

We see Jorah and Dany exploring the market together, and he does absolutely nothing to safeguard her beyond merely being there.  Until he walks off, insisting that Daenerys not join him, to the point where Dany herself is suspicious.  Why does he need to get his news alone, if not because she isn't supposed to hear something in there?

So here is our train of events.  Robert wants Dany dead, and offers a lordship for it (something we know people will flock to, as we see with Tyrion - it's not reasonable that only one attempt is made).  According to you, Varys spreads word of this, but no one takes him up on the offer except this one guy.  According to me, Varys arranges one attempt that is bound to fail, because he has to do something but doesn't really want it to succeed.

Move to Vaes Dothrak.  Here's our noble Ser Jorah, who is doing nothing to check on the various vendors that Dany is missing.  Then, he insists on going off alone, and is suspiciously insistent about the alone part.  The next thing he does is to stop a wineseller from opening a cask of wine at just the right moment, despite there being nothing inherently suspicious about the wineseller, right after his mysterious solo fact-finding mission.  He then goes on to never repeat his actions with the wineseller, ever again.  He actually conspicuously fails at this exact job when the Sorrowful Man comes calling - which makes no sense if he's her watchful protector.  Instead, he's a sorta dull disgraced knight who in this one instance had foreknowledge of the plot, and thus could step in to save her

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

But Varys doesn't want Dany to die.  He constantly is sending her help and succor.  So instead of doing the most effective thing (spending money on a real assassin, or spreading word about the lordship), he does the least effective thing from Robert's standpoint - hires one inept assassin so he can claim he did his job, and warns Jorah about the attempt so he can thwart it.

What is the point of convincing the King to issue an order, then not following it? It unnecessarily puts Varys at risk of being caught. If he wanted to go with the most risk averse path, he would have tried to convince Robert to do exactly what he was going to do.

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Unless the letter is in code?  Or unless a second letter comes in?  I agree that normally, that would be a pretty labored explanation, but we're already dealing in a whole bunch of espionage and plotting.  It makes perfect sense that Jorah, who at this point is still spying on Dany for Robert, has some secret means of communication.

We see Jorah and Dany exploring the market together, and he does absolutely nothing to safeguard her beyond merely being there.  Until he walks off, insisting that Daenerys not join him, to the point where Dany herself is suspicious.  Why does he need to get his news alone, if not because she isn't supposed to hear something in there?

Yes he does have a secret means of communication, it's called "sneaking off to exchange intel with one of Varys' spies under the guise of checking for mail from Illyrio". I can't think how to the warning about a wineseller is supposed to be coded. Anything about wine will be mighty suspicious given what just went down.

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

So here is our train of events.  Robert wants Dany dead, and offers a lordship for it (something we know people will flock to, as we see with Tyrion - it's not reasonable that only one attempt is made).  According to you, Varys spreads word of this, but no one takes him up on the offer except this one guy.  According to me, Varys arranges one attempt that is bound to fail, because he has to do something but doesn't really want it to succeed.

Move to Vaes Dothrak.  Here's our noble Ser Jorah, who is doing nothing to check on the various vendors that Dany is missing.  Then, he insists on going off alone, and is suspiciously insistent about the alone part.  The next thing he does is to stop a wineseller from opening a cask of wine at just the right moment, despite there being nothing inherently suspicious about the wineseller, right after his mysterious solo fact-finding mission.  He then goes on to never repeat his actions with the wineseller, ever again.  He actually conspicuously fails at this exact job when the Sorrowful Man comes calling - which makes no sense if he's her watchful protector.  Instead, he's a sorta dull disgraced knight who in this one instance had foreknowledge of the plot, and thus could step in to save her

I've already covered how the wineseller was acting very suspicious in my last post, and how it's entirely plausible that Jorah came back when he did in several previous posts, also why GRRM did that in the first place. I don't much feel like repeating myself.

And they learned of Robert's death in the second Dany chapter in ACOK. There was no need to be hyper-paranoid about normal people trying to kill her after that, though Jorah was still apt at picking up suspicious behaviour. Note how it was he who first noticed Whitebeard and Belwas following her, and it was them he focused on throughout the market.

Again, the biggest question is why Jorah never tells Dany that Varys planted the wineseller, if that was the truth. He eventually admits that he was sending and receiving intel to and from Varys. Why not tell her that Varys informed him of the poisoned wine, instead of telling her that Varys warned him of several attempts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

What is the point of convincing the King to issue an order, then not following it? It unnecessarily puts Varys at risk of being caught. If he wanted to go with the most risk averse path, he would have tried to convince Robert to do exactly what he was going to do.

Because Varys, politically speaking, cannot be having a pro-Targaryen stance.  He's a former Aerys loyalist; just like Tywin, his loyalties to Robert need to be loud, need to be immediately forthcoming, and need to be merciless, or else it's him on the chopping block.

Look, in Varys' mind, words are wind and he can say what he wants, because as the man eventually relied on to execute the order (hah, literally), he knows that he can always change the exact wording of what he says to an assassin/someone supposed to step in and stop said assassin.  If he had been advocating that Littlefinger do all the prep work, that would be a vastly different story, because then Varys loses control of the eventual pawn.

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yes he does have a secret means of communication, it's called "sneaking off to exchange intel with one of Varys' spies under the guise of checking for mail from Illyrio". I can't think how to the warning about a wineseller is supposed to be coded. Anything about wine will be mighty suspicious given what just went down.

Well, the whole point of codes is that they aren't immediately obvious in meaning.  Besides, Jorah is in the middle of a Dothraki horde, spying on the khaleesi and overall being a creep; you don't think he has a secret means of communicating with Varys/Illyrio?  "Sneaking off" is not "secret" because anyone could overhear and turn him in, and then he's screwed.  I mean, the Germans in WWII didn't say "I think if we call each other on a private line, with no one else in the room, that'll be sufficient secrecy".  No, instead they created Enigma, a coding machine, to actual keep messages secret.  I wouldn't be shocked if Jorah has a cipher, and it explains his willingness to show Dany a letter which otherwise is gibberish.

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I've already covered how the wineseller was acting very suspicious in my last post, and how it's entirely plausible that Jorah came back when he did in several previous posts, also why GRRM did that in the first place. I don't much feel like repeating myself.

He wasn't acting suspicious.  You covered how he was acting exactly like a merchant in the midst of Dothraki would act.  He's offering wine samples, because that is a great way to attract business; go to any food court in a mall and you can eat your fill of free samples.  Dany rides up, and it becomes clear that she's Drogo's wife, and therefore one of (if not the most) influential person in all of Vaes Dothrak outside Drogo himself.  So he offers her a better wine (which the plotters know Drogo will be inclined to accept, having grown to like fine wines), which is not only not suspicious, it is perfectly reasonable and to do otherwise would have been suspicious.  The Dothraki give gifts, so he can't really sell her the wine, and tradesmen trying to curry favor with powerful nobles and rulers is a time-honored tradition.  All of this is perfectly in character - it's why Dany receives expensive gifts in Qarth, too; because people are currying favor.  Jorah never warns Daenerys about any of the gifts she gets in Qarth, now does he?

So I'll throw it back on you - Jorah only ever warns Dany against one specific gift from one tradesman.  Which just happens to be one that is poisoned.  He conspicuously fails to be this diligent when another pushy merchant absolutely insists (at far more length) that Dany take something from him (the manticore), and is equally silent when the wealthy of Qarth are pushing (more innocent) gifts on her.

Why is that, do you think?  Maybe because he was told to stop this man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:13 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Not quite...

It is hard to tell how truthful Jorah is being here. We should keep in mind that he is being chastised and may still be hiding info from Dany. The letter from Varys, which he did not show her, may have been more specific regarding the wine merchant. Or it may have simply warned Jorah of general attempts like he claimed, and so he spent the rest of the morning secretly following Dany around (like a sketchy person) until the suspicious wine merchant offered Dany a special cask upon learning her identity, and that was more than enough to make Jorah intercede. Either way, Varys warned Jorah that assassins were coming after Dany, and it is definitely possible that Varys hired the wine merchant directly. After all, LF assumed that some dumb sellsword would end up botching the attempt and that a Faceless Man would have definitely succeeded. But then the wine merchant ended up using a Faceless Man tactic in his attempt. He may have even been a Faceless Man. There are a number of hints that Varys has Faceless Man connections, the most significant being that they are implied to be in possession of gold dragons minted by Daemon Blackfyre (the face on the coin that Arya could not recognize, just like Dunk back in the day), which means the FM are probably working for the Aegon cause.

Also, Jorah was already a lord. What he required was a pardon, so that he could simply return home to the lands he already possessed.

Possible does not make it likely. It's just as likely all of the maybes in your post are maybe nots: That Varys did not set up the wine merchant, that the wine merchant is not a Faceless Man (I mean, really, given what we've seen of the FM, do you actually think this is even remotely possible?)

The simplest explanation is that Jorah was torn between his desire to go home and his love for Dany. He played a hunch, given what he'd just learned, and ended up saving her life. To think that Varys could manipulate that level of detail from another continent is giving him far more ability that's he's shown. And in the end it would all be unnecessary, because the attempt produces the same affect whether it succeeds or fails: Drogo invades Westeros sooner rather than later. That was their ultimate goal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Possible does not make it likely. It's just as likely all of the maybes in your post are maybe nots: That Varys did not set up the wine merchant, that the wine merchant is not a Faceless Man (I mean, really, given what we've seen of the FM, do you actually think this is even remotely possible?)

The simplest explanation is that Jorah was torn between his desire to go home and his love for Dany. He played a hunch, given what he'd just learned, and ended up saving her life. To think that Varys could manipulate that level of detail from another continent is giving him far more ability that's he's shown. And in the end it would all be unnecessary, because the attempt produces the same affect whether it succeeds or fails: Drogo invades Westeros sooner rather than later. That was their ultimate goal.

I think it is unlikely but absolutely possible that the merchant was himself a FM, considering that Varys probably has FM connections, and the guy used a tactic extremely similar to what Arya did later.

No, if the attempt had succeeded it would have killed Drogo. Dany was going to drink the wine with him later, not drink it alone. This would have completely ruined their plans, which according to Illyrio was years of planning.

Quote

"The honor is mine." The merchant rummaged about in the back of his stall and produced a small oaken cask. Burned into the wood was a cluster of grapes. "The Redwyne sigil," he said, pointing, "for the Arbor. There is no finer drink."

"Khal Drogo and I will share it together. Aggo, take this back to my litter, if you'd be so kind." The wineseller beamed as the Dothraki hefted the cask.

She did not realize that Ser Jorah had returned until she heard the knight say, "No." His voice was strange, brusque. "Aggo, put down that cask."

I think you are underestimating Varys ;). The simplest explanation, IMHO, is that Varys hired the merchant and explicitly warned Jorah about it, and Jorah obfuscated the full truth from Dany, because he had fallen in love with her by then and was trying to seek forgiveness, and telling her the whole thing was fake may have just pissed her off even more. But even if Varys wasn't explicit, he definitely at least warned Jorah there would be attempts and expected him to protect Dany.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Possible does not make it likely. It's just as likely all of the maybes in your post are maybe nots: That Varys did not set up the wine merchant, that the wine merchant is not a Faceless Man (I mean, really, given what we've seen of the FM, do you actually think this is even remotely possible?)

The simplest explanation is that Jorah was torn between his desire to go home and his love for Dany. He played a hunch, given what he'd just learned, and ended up saving her life. To think that Varys could manipulate that level of detail from another continent is giving him far more ability that's he's shown. And in the end it would all be unnecessary, because the attempt produces the same affect whether it succeeds or fails: Drogo invades Westeros sooner rather than later. That was their ultimate goal.

Exactly. There's absolutely zero need to add a secondary motive. It adds nothing to the story, the characters...nothing. It isn't even presented as a mystery.

Besides, it's been shown several times that all these master players - Varys, Illyrio, LF, etc - often don't have everything in their control. A lot of their plans go awry. It's their ability to adapt to the situation that makes them so successful, not their ability to produce perfect plans that has everybody doing exactly what they want them to do.

10 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Because Varys, politically speaking, cannot be having a pro-Targaryen stance.  He's a former Aerys loyalist; just like Tywin, his loyalties to Robert need to be loud, need to be immediately forthcoming, and need to be merciless, or else it's him on the chopping block.

"his loyalties to Robert need to be loud"... so he goes against Robert's orders to tell people about the offer lordship and lands in exchange for assassinating the Targ princess? Yeah, still not making sense.

10 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, the whole point of codes is that they aren't immediately obvious in meaning.  Besides, Jorah is in the middle of a Dothraki horde, spying on the khaleesi and overall being a creep; you don't think he has a secret means of communicating with Varys/Illyrio?  "Sneaking off" is not "secret" because anyone could overhear and turn him in, and then he's screwed.  I mean, the Germans in WWII didn't say "I think if we call each other on a private line, with no one else in the room, that'll be sufficient secrecy".  No, instead they created Enigma, a coding machine, to actual keep messages secret.  I wouldn't be shocked if Jorah has a cipher, and it explains his willingness to show Dany a letter which otherwise is gibberish.

But sneaking off is exactly what he did! You, yourself, pointed out how he went off alone to find the letterbearer, convincing Dany not to come with him. See, trying to justify Jorah knowing about the wineseller is getting more and complicated, and it's all speculation, no textual evidence. We're talking about ciphers now, which would be mighty suspicious if anybody else ever read the letters, which were supposed to be from Illyrio - "Hey Jorah, why is Illyrio writing to you in code?"

11 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

He wasn't acting suspicious.  You covered how he was acting exactly like a merchant in the midst of Dothraki would act.  He's offering wine samples, because that is a great way to attract business; go to any food court in a mall and you can eat your fill of free samples.  Dany rides up, and it becomes clear that she's Drogo's wife, and therefore one of (if not the most) influential person in all of Vaes Dothrak outside Drogo himself.  So he offers her a better wine (which the plotters know Drogo will be inclined to accept, having grown to like fine wines), which is not only not suspicious, it is perfectly reasonable and to do otherwise would have been suspicious.  The Dothraki give gifts, so he can't really sell her the wine, and tradesmen trying to curry favor with powerful nobles and rulers is a time-honored tradition.  All of this is perfectly in character - it's why Dany receives expensive gifts in Qarth, too; because people are currying favor.  Jorah never warns Daenerys about any of the gifts she gets in Qarth, now does he?

But it is suspicious in the context of people trying to assassinate her. He offers samples of wines to everybody in the market, but goes to get a specific cask of a different wine for her. The text makes a point of having him 'rummage about in the back of his stall' for it. Poison is a common tool for assassination in this world. So if I were Jorah, I'd wonder, too.

Also, the way Jorah behaves backs up him being suspicious but not actually knowing - "Ser Jorah lifted a cup and sniffed at the wine, frowning." Why bother putting on a show when he could have just gone straight to making the wineseller take a drink?

11 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

So I'll throw it back on you - Jorah only ever warns Dany against one specific gift from one tradesman.  Which just happens to be one that is poisoned.  He conspicuously fails to be this diligent when another pushy merchant absolutely insists (at far more length) that Dany take something from him (the manticore), and is equally silent when the wealthy of Qarth are pushing (more innocent) gifts on her.

I wouldn't say it was far more length. A dude jumps out in front of them suddenly to hand over a box, which Dany takes "reflexively". She says a four word sentence and then opens it. It all happens pretty quick, whereas the wineseller took his sweet time exchanging quite a few lines of dialogue and finding the cask of wine. Also, as I mentioned previously, Robert was dead so they needn't worry about looking for assassins in every person, Jorah's focus was on Whitebeard and Belwas, and poison through food is a common, murder via a pretty box...not so much. Same with Qarth - I can't imagine death by crown, or death by ointment or news, is all that common either. And the nobles of Qarth have much less reason to risk death for a lordship in Westeros than some petty merchant. Even if they did, Qartheen are known for their poisoned wine, which Dany was offered none of. All the same, he's on full alert, trying to stay by Dany's side when she orders him to go to the docks, warning her about Pyat and Xaro and Quathe.

Once more, the question of why Jorah never tells Dany about the wineseller remains unanswered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/3/2017 at 2:49 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Illyrio doesn't pay for everything behind the scenes in the same way that bloodraven doesn't warg everything behind the scenes, In fact, I am surprised you didn't posit that bloodraven/CTOF  skinchanged drogo to fall in love with dany or that the dosh khaleen were somehow remnants of the CTOF population in essos or something else crackpotty. 
Also, Dany was a physically mature woman at 13, and until very recently in history, as soon as a woman menstruated, she was ready for marriage 

She wasn't a physically mature woman at 13. Her body was still developing (in the middle of puberty). She barely had boobs for goodness sake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

"his loyalties to Robert need to be loud"... so he goes against Robert's orders to tell people about the offer lordship and lands in exchange for assassinating the Targ princess? Yeah, still not making sense.

Perhaps you don't understand the concept involved in saying one thing and doing another.  He is extremely vocal about wanting to kill Dany when in front of Robert, and does in fact set up an attempt.  So, he can say with a straight face, "I tried to have her killed and it failed". Knowing Robert is uncurious and uninterested in ruling, it is a safe assumption that he won't go digging into just how loudly Varys broadcasted that order.  For example, if you said Ed Sheeran was the best actor on the show, and I agreed with you on the boards, but went and told my friends verbally I though his appearance was silly, what do I really believe?  Now, imagine you paying me to agree with you on these boards.  Could you find out whether or not I was saying something else behind your back?  I guess, but it would take an enormous amount of effort and be difficult to prove.  Ditto Varys.  He's agreeing to Robert's face, setting up a well-publicized but sure-to-fail attempt on her life, and letting it lie.

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

See, trying to justify Jorah knowing about the wineseller is getting more and complicated, and it's all speculation, no textual evidence. We're talking about ciphers now, which would be mighty suspicious if anybody else ever read the letters, which were supposed to be from Illyrio - "Hey Jorah, why is Illyrio writing to you in code?"

I can think of tens of thousands of reasons, depending on how many people in the khalasar speak Westerosi.

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

But it is suspicious in the context of people trying to assassinate her. He offers samples of wines to everybody in the market, but goes to get a specific cask of a different wine for her.

This... isn't suspicious.  It's extremely normal.  You don't really understand the concept of giving gifts, do you?  Or relative value?  Dany is an extremely powerful figure in the khalasar.  Offering her the best possible sample of his wares wouldn't be unusual, it would be normal, because the Dothraki give gifts as a means of commercial exchange.  So when this merchant offers his best wine to Dany, he's doing it on the expectation that he'll receive a gift in return.  And of course he gives her the best wine (which it is known that Drogo likes); she's effectively a queen.  You don't give a queen a glass of pisswater.  Nor do you leave your best stuff lying around for random Dothraki to ask for it.  When he realized who she was, he went to get the good stuff.  Kind of like how if you walk into a modern wine store looking like a homeless person, you might be shooed along or shown the two buck chuck.  But if you come in a suit and tie, maybe you get shown more expensive bottles which are kept in the back, or locked up in a case.

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Also, the way Jorah behaves backs up him being suspicious but not actually knowing - "Ser Jorah lifted a cup and sniffed at the wine, frowning." Why bother putting on a show when he could have just gone straight to making the wineseller take a drink?

Why bother poisoning wine if you can smell the poison on it!!!!  It's for show!  If you can smell the poison, on a drink for which half the appeal is in the nose, then you are some kind of inept poisoner.  He's performing, and he's trying to sell the performance.  If he's doing a routine check, and by routine I mean "the only time in the entire series he ever suspects an assassin is trying to get to Dany," why is his voice so strange when he asks the wineseller to hold off on pouring for Dany?

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I wouldn't say it was far more length. A dude jumps out in front of them suddenly to hand over a box, which Dany takes "reflexively".

I was mistaken in detail but not in my overarching points.  Dany spends several pages fighting off another merchant, to whom Jorah pays literally no mind, and allows to get within grabbing distance of Dany.  And then, of course, lets the mysterious Qartheen get right in close, too.  Some kind of bodyguard.  The point being, of course, that we are still at one, and only one, instance of Jorah ever doing even the slightest bit of due diligence on a merchant by whom Dany is being pestered.  And mind you, all of these happen afterwards, when Jorah should be even MORE on guard (if he's honest), having "stopped" a previous attempt.

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

It all happens pretty quick, whereas the wineseller took his sweet time exchanging quite a few lines of dialogue and finding the cask of wine.

So does the brass merchant.   Jorah doesn't care about letting that guy get up close.

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

And the nobles of Qarth have much less reason to risk death for a lordship in Westeros than some petty merchant.

Except that the petty merchant would be immediately murdered by angry Dothraki?  It's not like he's getting out of there alive.  None of it makes any sense at all, unless it was an attempt so stupid as to be designed to fail.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 9:50 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

All the same, he's on full alert, trying to stay by Dany's side when she orders him to go to the docks, warning her about Pyat and Xaro and Quathe.

He does all this because he's gaslighting Dany, not because he's a competent bodyguard.  This is made explicit in the text, by Dany herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As others have already pointed out better than I probably will, she's hot, exotic, virgin, royal blood, etc. He's a warlord. It's a nice trophy essentially. 

I think the more interesting question about the match is what was the gain/ selling point for Illyrio and Varys? It doesn't seem like a situation that was particularly safe, they had no further control or influence of two targaryens at minimum, they had to know the dothraki had never and would never cross the sea, etc.  Compared to how they appear to handle Aegon it's rather curious. If anything it comes off as a sort of washing their hands of the two/ execution. For what reason Varys and Illyrio had kept them safe to discard them at that time alludes me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, averde said:

I think the more interesting question about the match is what was the gain/ selling point for Illyrio and Varys? It doesn't seem like a situation that was particularly safe, they had no further control or influence of two targaryens at minimum, they had to know the dothraki had never and would never cross the sea, etc.  Compared to how they appear to handle Aegon it's rather curious. If anything it comes off as a sort of washing their hands of the two/ execution. For what reason Varys and Illyrio had kept them safe to discard them at that time alludes me. 

You have an assumption in there that might not be correct. Might the Dothraki cross the sea? They never had before, and Illyrio was certainly aware of their belief that horse lords should never cross the dead, salt sea. On the other hand, the assassination attempt did motivate Drogo to prepare to cross the salt sea, and, as the letters from Illyrio about selling slaves in Meereen clearly show, Illyrio expected Drogo to do this. 

So, if Illyrio expected, or at least had good reason to hope, that Drogo would cross the ocean, why do you think Illyrio arranged for Viserys to give Daenerys to Drogo? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You have an assumption in there that might not be correct. Might the Dothraki cross the sea? They never had before, and Illyrio was certainly aware of their belief that horse lords should never cross the dead, salt sea. On the other hand, the assassination attempt did motivate Drogo to prepare to cross the salt sea, and, as the letters from Illyrio about selling slaves in Meereen clearly show, Illyrio expected Drogo to do this. 

So, if Illyrio expected, or at least had good reason to hope, that Drogo would cross the ocean, why do you think Illyrio arranged for Viserys to give Daenerys to Drogo? 

I see your point, but I think it's a pretty thin argument. Illyrio hands over two targaryens to a dothraki horde, there's no way around that important bit of information. Might drogo fall in love with daenerys? Sure, but it's much more likely she'll mean very little to him outside of the bedroom, and even there only to the extent she may or may not satisfy him more then another woman. Does the horde have respect for/ a reason to hold up Daenerys and Viserys and fight a war for them, die for them, and cross the salt sea for them? Clearly not, and we see that earlier on with the lack of respect for targaryen life when they kill Viserys. Illyrio and Varys also have no way to guarantee the assassination, and its outcome. 

These kind of issues implied to me that Illyrio was washing his hands of Viserys and Daenerys. If anything it would clear the board for Aegon as The Targaryen, and possibly win him a nice sized drogo horde if daenerys is alive or dead. 

 

The other side of this i don't understand and may leed credence to what you're saying is why then did Illyrio and Varys guarantee Daenerys and Viserys safety for any amount of time, and why dispense of them at that moment to the dothraki. But I guess that's why I enjoy this question so much, I can definitely see several different arguments worth looking at and considering. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, averde said:

I see your point, but I think it's a pretty thin argument. Illyrio hands over two targaryens to a dothraki horde, there's no way around that important bit of information. 

Might drogo fall in love with daenerys? Sure, but it's much more likely she'll mean very little to him outside of the bedroom, and even there only to the extent she may or may not satisfy him more then another woman. Does the horde have respect for/ a reason to hold up Daenerys and Viserys and fight a war for them, die for them, and cross the salt sea for them? Clearly not, and we see that earlier on with the lack of respect for targaryen life when they kill Viserys. Illyrio and Varys also have no way to guarantee the assassination, and its outcome. 

These kind of issues implied to me that Illyrio was washing his hands of Viserys and Daenerys. If anything it would clear the board for Aegon as The Targaryen, and possibly win him a nice sized drogo horde if daenerys is alive or dead. 

The other side of this i don't understand and may leed credence to what you're saying is why then did Illyrio and Varys guarantee Daenerys and Viserys safety for any amount of time, and why dispense of them at that moment to the dothraki. But I guess that's why I enjoy this question so much, I can definitely see several different arguments worth looking at and considering. 

I think we can safely assume that Daenerys was coin Illyrio hoped would buy an army. We're the dragon eggs part of the transaction? It would be surprising to discover that Drogo would be prevented from using those eggs as he saw fit. And keep in mind that Daenerys was expected to give to Drogo the bride gifts from his bloodriders. She only got them back after Drogo died. 

We know that at the time Illyrio sold Daenerys to Drogo he was not ready initiate the succession crisis, but that Petyr's meddling forced him to accelerate his timetable. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:07 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

We know that at the time Illyrio sold Daenerys to Drogo he was not ready initiate the succession crisis, but that Petyr's meddling forced him to accelerate his timetable. 

Yes, which is why I argue that if Arya had heard the rest of the conversation in the dragon room, it would have them deciding then and there to tell the small council about Dany's pregnancy, which would launch the inevitable assassination plot that, regardless of whether it succeeded or failed, would spur Drogo to invade Westeros sooner rather than later.

So there is no need for Varys or Illyrio to stage anything in Vaes Dothrak, because they get what they want whether Dany and/or little Rhaego lives or dies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/23/2017 at 4:33 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, which is why I argue that if Arya had heard the rest of the conversation in the dragon room, it would have them deciding then and there to tell the small council about Dany's pregnancy, which would launch the inevitable assassination plot that, regardless of whether it succeeded or failed, would spur Drogo to invade Westeros sooner rather than later.

So there is no need for Varys or Illyrio to stage anything in Vaes Dothrak, because they get what they want whether Dany and/or little Rhaego lives or dies.

LOL I feel the need to jump into this conversation again because this point is so silly and people keep making it. :P 

If the plot had succeeded Drogo would be DEAD and certainly not invading Westeros. Dany explicitly planned on sharing the wine with Drogo!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:34 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL I feel the need to jump into this conversation again because this point is so silly and people keep making it. :P 

If the plot had succeeded Drogo would be DEAD and certainly not invading Westeros. Dany explicitly planned on sharing the wine with Drogo!

So are you saying that Dany is complicit in the plan to murder her and Rhaego and Drogo? Drogo drinks clotted mare's puke, so there's no reason to think he would want Westerosi girlie-wine. And if the dosage is prepared carefully enough, they could easily kill Dany and/or her baby while giving a large man like Drogo a case of the runs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ser Loras The Gay

Isn't this why:

Quote

She was a young filly, spirited and splendid. Dany knew just enough about horses to know that this was no ordinary animal. There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke. [GoT]

This is Dany talking about her silver. But it might as well be how Drogo sees her. He gifts her the horse after all. We don't know what happened during their marriage meeting. But Drogo accepted her when he didn't need to. It shows that he really liked her, backed up by his treatment of her during their wedding night. There are no rules to attraction. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/1/2017 at 4:55 PM, John Suburbs said:

So are you saying that Dany is complicit in the plan to murder her and Rhaego and Drogo? Drogo drinks clotted mare's puke, so there's no reason to think he would want Westerosi girlie-wine. And if the dosage is prepared carefully enough, they could easily kill Dany and/or her baby while giving a large man like Drogo a case of the runs.

No... Dany was not in on the plan, that's not what I'm saying... I was basically quoting the chapter, which you may want to reread :P:

Quote

Khal Drogo's visits to the Free Cities had given him a taste for good wine, and Dany knew that such a noble vintage would please him. "You honor me, ser," she murmured sweetly.

Quote

"Khal Drogo and I will share it together. Aggo, take this back to my litter, if you'd be so kind." The wineseller beamed as the Dothraki hefted the cask.

And you can't control the dosage because you don't know how much they will drink. Drogo would likely drink proportionally more than Dany, killing them both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...