Maegor the Cruel was kept alive by dark magic and died after Tyanna could no longer sustain him

[Lost Melnibonean]

39 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Yep, like em.

Perhaps, But I think Beric and Catelyn were actually something else.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Was he a firewight?

Not very likely in light of the fact that we don't have any reason to believe Tyanna was a red priestess.

But in general I'd go along with the idea that it was only a coma with death being very likely and pretty much no chance that he would ever wake up again. That kind of thing could most likely be resolved with a somewhat modest spell. I mean, do we think they could have staged a full blood magic ritual of the type Mirri pulls off in AGoT without nobody realizing it?

Probably not.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

While this is interesting I think there are some fundamental problems with it. First of all, there is no noticeable change in tywin's personality. The tywin we see at Tyrion's trial is much the same man that brought down the Reynes. In fact, Tywin's character from the earliest mentions of it to the way he spoke to Tyrion right before being killed show a very consistent character. If he at some point died, was shadow bound and puppeted then the shadow binder basically had him act the way he always acted. ALso, to what end would Tywin have been shadowbound? His actions all benefitted house Lannister. In no way did Tywin do anything that benefitted anyone other than Tywin.

When it comes to tin foil, especially super natural tin foil, I always ask one important question....."If True, what does this mean for the story." If Tywin died at some point before or after the start of GOT and was brought back to life as a puppet only to act in a way consistent with how he had been his whole life anyway then it is a major bit of supernatural that doesn't give us anything which isn't grrms style at all.

I've tried to figure out when he might have died, if he died at an earlier age. The best I could come up with was in the Stepstones, during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Tywin made friends before that point - Prince Aerys, Steffon Baratheon, Joanna Lannister - but returned to Casterly Rock after the war described as "ruthless." The qualities of being ruthless and making friends aren't mutually exclusive, but this seemed like a possible turning point to me. On the other hand, a good shadowbinder might also try to avoid showing an obvious change in personality - if the goal was to manipulate Tywin into making certain administrative decisions, a change in personality might have been a giveaway.

Tywin certainly served the King and the Seven Kingdoms for many years. While his position also gave him the opportunity to advance Lannister interests, there was some public service - and lots of power and control - involved in the job of Hand of the King. The motive for shadowbinding him could have been his friendship with Aerys - he was likely to stay close to the monarch, given their youthful bond. It was a bonus that he also became Hand of the King. If he hadn't become the King's Hand, I suppose his puppetmaster could have let him "die" and looked for a way to control someone else close the Aerys.

My current line of somewhat crackpot thinking about hidden motives is that people are working behind the scenes not to restore the Targaryens to the throne, but to install the descendants of Corlys Velaryon and King Baelor I's sister Eleana. Corlys and Eleana were both powers behind the throne and (essentially) Masters of Coin during a couple of regimes. I think the trick is to keep an eye on the Master of Coin over the years - the people who manipulate "dragons". (I also think that Viserys II was an imposter, substituted for the real Viserys who died during the Dance of the Dragons. Corlys may have suspected that this conveniently rediscovered Viserys, already married to a banking family from Essos, was a fake. He started the groundwork to unseat this banker's spawn and "restore" the Targs with descendants of Eleana. But I digress.)

If Tywin was some kind of undead puppet, I suspect the motive for controlling him might connect to this bit of news from the Princess and the Queen:

Ser Tyland Lannister was named master of coin in place of the late Lord Beesbury, and acted at once to seize the royal treasury. The crown’s gold was divided into four parts. One part was entrusted to the care of the Iron Bank of Braavos for safekeeping, another sent under strong guard to Casterly Rock, a third to Oldtown. The remaining wealth was to be used for bribes and gifts, and to hire sellswords if needed.

When was that gold returned? Was it returned? If there was massive or ongoing embezzlement at the Red Keep, who was involved in it and how did they benefit? Who had motives to cover up the theft? If I'm right about Viserys II being an imposter Targaryen, I suspect that Braavosi bankers, such as House Rogare, are behind the theft. In addition to Larra Rogare marrying Viserys II, a Rogare uncle married into House Martell. If Martells were working with Braavosi bankers and/or Lannisters and/or Hightowers or the Citadel, this could explain some of Doran's mysterious long-range plan for manipulating Targaryens and for controlling Westeros. Follow those three portions of missing gold . . .

[YOVMO]

Oh Seams, thanks for reminding me why I need to not take breaks from this board. How much fun!

 

15 hours ago, Seams said:

I've tried to figure out when he might have died, if he died at an earlier age. The best I could come up with was in the Stepstones, during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Tywin made friends before that point - Prince Aerys, Steffon Baratheon, Joanna Lannister - but returned to Casterly Rock after the war described as "ruthless." The qualities of being ruthless and making friends aren't mutually exclusive, but this seemed like a possible turning point to me. On the other hand, a good shadowbinder might also try to avoid showing an obvious change in personality - if the goal was to manipulate Tywin into making certain administrative decisions, a change in personality might have been a giveaway.

I will give you possible on this, but it is still a stretch. It would be just as easy to say that the War of the Ninepenny Kings had a profound impact on a young Tywin as war so often will do to men.  So I think what is necessary to really buy into it would be 1) a solid motive (will get to that below) and 2) some more solid proof that Tywin is dead other than becoming more ruthless after returning from a war. It is true that Tywin was in a great position to both influence Aerys as well as make independent administrative decisions at the very top echelons of power -- as hand he actually sat the iron throne, but can you point to a single decision, judgment, choice or move that Tywin made that would have had a positive impact on any shadowbinders?

Is there anything that Tywin did that would have aided the Shadowbinders? The only time he mentions them is when he tells Tyrion that there are rummers that Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from asshai. Nothing Tywin does as Warden of West or Hand of the King seems to have helped anyone in Asshai or won any favors for shadowbinder interests.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

Tywin certainly served the King and the Seven Kingdoms for many years. While his position also gave him the opportunity to advance Lannister interests, there was some public service - and lots of power and control - involved in the job of Hand of the King. The motive for shadowbinding him could have been his friendship with Aerys - he was likely to stay close to the monarch, given their youthful bond. It was a bonus that he also became Hand of the King. If he hadn't become the King's Hand, I suppose his puppetmaster could have let him "die" and looked for a way to control someone else close the Aerys.

I am still dubious but if, for the sake of discussion, we say that Tywin is being puppeted...is it possible that somehow Aryes madness is related here. I have mentioned in another post that I think it is possible that Tywin was directly responsible for the Defiance of Duskendale and that the original plan would have been to storm, have areys die, get Rhaegar on the throne, blame and destroy house Hollard as a scape goat and in turn the Darklyn's would, after a suitable time, get the dornish style charter from King Rhaegar that they wanted while Tywin would get Cersei as queen, rid of Aerys and possibly manage to get Jamie back as heir and out of the KG. When things didn't work out the Darklyn's had to be silenced and Aerys was came back mad as a hatter. If you want a big bit of tin foil we might say that the Darklyn's dabbled in some form of first men magic (they were petty kings and during the Second Blackgyre rebellion they were one of the Families that came to the aid of Brynden Rivers..there could be some argument to be made for a Bloodraven-Areys Madness-Tywin being controlled connection but it would be incredibly tentative.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

My current line of somewhat crackpot thinking about hidden motives is that people are working behind the scenes not to restore the Targaryens to the throne, but to install the descendants of Corlys Velaryon and King Baelor I's sister Eleana. Corlys and Eleana were both powers behind the throne and (essentially) Masters of Coin during a couple of regimes. I think the trick is to keep an eye on the Master of Coin over the years - the people who manipulate "dragons".

 

Manipulate the dragons...well done.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

(I also think that Viserys II was an imposter, substituted for the real Viserys who died during the Dance of the Dragons.

Any idea who? To imitate a Targaryen there would be been a lot of physical features one would need to posses that are generally rare in the 7K which could reduce the number of possibilities drastically.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

Corlys may have suspected that this conveniently rediscovered Viserys, already married to a banking family from Essos, was a fake. He started the groundwork to unseat this banker's spawn and "restore" the Targs with descendants of Eleana. But I digress.)

If Tywin was some kind of undead puppet, I suspect the motive for controlling him might connect to this bit of news from the Princess and the Queen:

Ser Tyland Lannister was named master of coin in place of the late Lord Beesbury, and acted at once to seize the royal treasury. The crown’s gold was divided into four parts. One part was entrusted to the care of the Iron Bank of Braavos for safekeeping, another sent under strong guard to Casterly Rock, a third to Oldtown. The remaining wealth was to be used for bribes and gifts, and to hire sellswords if needed.

When was that gold returned? Was it returned? If there was massive or ongoing embezzlement at the Red Keep, who was involved in it and how did they benefit? Who had motives to cover up the theft? If I'm right about Viserys II being an imposter Targaryen, I suspect that Braavosi bankers, such as House Rogare, are behind the theft. In addition to Larra Rogare marrying Viserys II, a Rogare uncle married into House Martell. If Martells were working with Braavosi bankers and/or Lannisters and/or Hightowers or the Citadel, this could explain some of Doran's mysterious long-range plan for manipulating Targaryens and for controlling Westeros. Follow those three portions of missing gold . . .

Interesting. It is a shame we don't have more information on who a young Marwyn was mentored by. If this is true and the Citadel was involved and there is magic at hand that would give us some clues.

[YOVMO]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

The motive for shadowbinding him could have been his friendship with Aerys

Side note: A recapitulation of King Theodin and Grima Wormtongue with King Aerys and Undead Tywin in your hypothetical is almost impossible to avoid and just enough of a riff on LOTR fit with grrm in general.