Maegor the Cruel was kept alive by dark magic and died after Tyanna could no longer sustain him

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Visenya then challenged any who denied Maegor’s right to rule to prove themselves, and the captain of the Warrior’s Sons accepted the challenge. Ser Damon Morrigen, called Damon the Devout, agreed to a trial of seven after the ancient fashion: Ser Damon and six Warrior’s Sons against the king and his six champions. It was a contest in which the kingdom itself was at stake, and the accounts and tales are many—and often contradictory. What we do know is that King Maegor was the last man left standing, but that he took a grievous blow to the head at the very end and fell senseless to the ground just moments after the last of the Warrior’s Sons died.

For twenty-seven days, Maegor was dead to the world. On the twenty-eighth, Queen Alys arrived from Pentos (Maegor was still without issue), and with her came a Pentoshi beauty called Tyanna of the Tower. She had become Maegor’s lover during his exile, it was clear, and some whispered Queen Alys’s as well. The Dowager Queen, after meeting with Tyanna, gave the king over to her care alone—a fact that troubled Maegor’s supporters.

On the thirtieth day since the trial of seven, the king awoke with the sunrise and walked out onto the walls. Thousands cheered—though not at the Sept of Remembrance, where hundreds of the Warrior’s Sons had gathered for their morning prayers. Then Maegor mounted Balerion and flew from Aegon’s High Hill to the Hill of Rhaenys and, without warning, unleashed the Black Dread’s fire. As the Sept of Remembrance was set alight, some tried to flee, only to be cut down by the archers and spearmen that Maegor had made ready. The screams of the burning and dying men were said to echo throughout the city, and scholars claim that a pall hung over King’s Landing for seven days.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

I am thinking Visenya kept Maegor alive and Tyanna revived him by some sort of blood magic. 

Quote

Tyanna was the most feared of the brides of King Maegor. Rumored to have been the natural daughter of a Pentoshi magister, she had been a tavern dancer who rose up to become a courtesan. She was said to practice sorcery and alchemy.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Tyanna wasn’t the only one that appreciated the higher mysteries...

Quote

Even those who loved her best found Visenya stern, serious, unforgiving, and some said that she played with poisons and dabbled in dark sorceries.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

But Visenya eventually died...

Quote

The death of the Dowager Queen Visenya in 44 AC was a notable event although Maegor seemed to take it in his stride. 

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

And then, a few of years later, Maegor killed Tyanna...

Quote

She eventually confessed her responsibility for the abominations that were born of Maegor’s seed, claiming she had poisoned his other brides. She was killed by Maegor’s own hand in 48 AC, her heart cut out with Blackfyre and thrownto his dogs. 

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Perhaps Maegor’s first wife was barren, and the reason he could not conceive later was due to Tyanna's sorceries. Shortly after Tyanna died, Maegor died under very mysterious circumstances...

Quote

It was late at night, during the hour of the wolf, when the remaining lords departed the council chamber, leaving Maegor to brood alone. Early the next morning, he was found dead on the throne, his robes sodden with blood, his arms slashedopen by the barbs of the Iron Throne. 

Thus ended Maegor the Cruel. How he came to die is a matter of much speculation. Though the singers would have us believe that the Iron Throne itself killed him, some suspect his Kingsguard, and others some mason whom the king had failed to kill and who knew the secrets of the Red Keep. But perhaps even likelier is the suggestion that the king killed himself rather than suffer defeat. Whatever the truth, it was a reignthat ended in the only way it could after the six years of terror that Maegor had visited upon the realm. But his nephew’s reign would do much to mend the deep woundshe had made in the Seven Kingdoms.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

[Aegon1FanBoy]

Doubtful but i do believe some socsorcery was used to revive him 

[Angel Eyes]

 

9 hours ago, Aegon1FanBoy said:

Doubtful but i do believe some socsorcery was used to revive him 

And maybe that's why Maegor couldn't produce viable offspring? I was always wondering about that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

And maybe that's why Maegor couldn't produce viable offspring? I was always wondering about that.

That's part of what I am suggesting. 

[Aegon1FanBoy]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

And maybe that's why Maegor couldn't produce viable offspring? I was always wondering about that.

I just blame that on Tyana poisoning the other wives. 

[Ygrain]

That's pretty interesting stuff.

Any details on how, or why, Tyanna confessed? Was she caught, eh, poison-handed? Because this kind of confession one doesn't make willingly for sure, and on the other hand, under duress, people confess things they never did. Did Maegor have a maester?

 

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, Aegon1FanBoy said:

I just blame that on Tyana poisoning the other wives. 

Then what happened to the ones that Maegor tried after Tyanna's death? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's pretty interesting stuff.

Any details on how, or why, Tyanna confessed? Was she caught, eh, poison-handed? Because this kind of confession one doesn't make willingly for sure, and on the other hand, under duress, people confess things they never did. Did Maegor have a maester?

 

No additional details yet, but I expect we'll get some more details in Sons of the Dragon. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then what happened to the ones that Maegor tried after Tyanna's death? 

There was no record of any more dragon babies afyer Tyanna was executed. Maegor died the same year he killed Tyanna, 48. His first wife was Cersei Hightower. She never became pregnant. So he took Alys Harroway as a second wife. They were exiled and met Tyanna abroad. Alys then conceived one of those wicked little dragon babies. Then he took his three black brides. Elinor Costayne conceived another dragon baby, as did Jeyne Westerling. Rhaena Targaryen was able to bail.

[Damon_Tor]

On 8/3/2017 at 11:29 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am thinking Tyanna kept Maegor alive and revived him by some sort of blood magic. 

It definitely seems like it. It calls into question how exactly resurrection works, especially since Tyanna was killed by Maegor himself. Whatever is animating the resurrected, it's not them (unless they have a backup wargdrive) but it also doesn't seem to be the will of the shadowbinder (wights are an exception?) because the creations can betray the creators.

[Seams]

This is very helpful.

Because of the endless emphasis on the stench of Tywin's corpse, I wondered whether he had been dead for a long time before Tyrion "killed" him. There is also a lot of speculation that his three children are not his biological offspring. I wonder whether the Maegor situation is a precedent?

If Tywin was "undead," though, when did he initially die and experience a dark magic rebirth? Who was his shadowbinder?

We are fairly sure that Ser Robert Strong is a puppet resurrected by Qyburn from the dead body of Gregor Clegane. Interesting that Kevan Lannister mentions this in a pretty matter-of-fact way in his only POV - as if he was familiar with a similar situation? But it's also interesting to note that Qyburn apparently saved Jaime after his arm was cut off. Is this another resurrection scenario?

I'm also mindful of Sandor's story of the "marvelous" wooden soldier given to Gregor when he was younger. Sandor says, "you could make him fight." Who was the toymaker who gave the toys to the Clegane family? Has Gregor been a puppet all along?

Maegor is stabbed to death by his own throne. Gregor is impaled by Oberyn's spear. Tywin is impaled by a crossbow quarrel. Do these "undead" characters have to be impaled by a certain kind of metal in order to die once and for all? I'm also curious whether the Green Grace (linked to Gregor, in my mind, for other reasons) was part of this undead group. She was impaled and left to die slowly in a public square where she was observed by Quentyn Martell.

Candidate for Tywin's puppetmaster: Maggie the Frog was active in the Westerlands, and there is a line of witchy women who descend from her . . .

[Lord Varys]

This is a very old idea. Chances are not that bad that magic was used to wake Maegor from his coma (in a similar way Mirri Maz Duur saved Drogo from certain death) or even to call him back from death.

However, the chances that this spell was intricately linked to Tyanna doesn't seem to be the case since Maegor did kill Tyanna and continue to live afterwards. 

But it is quite clear that the losses of mommy and Tyanna clearly greatly affected him. We have no clear picture on the time line but I guess the murder of Tyanna took place rather shortly after his death. I imagine Rhaena stole Blackfyre and fled on Dreamfyre in the days after Tyanna's death. A Maegor lying in broken in drunken sleep, not really caring what happens outside seems to be something that could only happen after the disaster of the two latest monstrosities and Tyanna's confession and death (Ran and Linda indicate that Tyanna went through gruesome torture at Maegor's hands before her death).

I doubt the idea that Tyanna poisoned anyone, though. I think Maegor's used Tyanna's magics in an attempt to impregnate women - first Alys in 44 AC, and then later on in 47-48 AC Elinor Costayne and Jeyne Westerling. It is Tyanna who puts the blame of the first monstrosity birth eventually to Alys Harroway, claiming she has committed adultery, leading to the eradication of the Harroways. Why did she do that? Rumor has it that Alys and Tyanna had become lovers, too, back during the days of Maegor's exile in Pentos. While Tyanna seems to have been a very ruthless person I doubt she was particularly jealous of Alys - if there was a wife of Maegor's she would have resented it would have been Rhaena Targaryen, presumably, since a child by her most certainly would have become Maegor's heir had she given the king a healthy child.

But if we assume that Tyanna was helping/preparing Maegor to father a child with spells, magical potions, etc. then it is not unlikely at all that she had to shift the blame for the monstrous child to Alys to save her own life. After all, Maegor had everyone killed who was involved in the birth, and only turned against Alys and the Harroways thereafter. Another logical point would have been to turn against the sorceress who helped Maegor to father a child in the first place. This worked in 44 AC but failed in 48 AC. Maegor, completely unwilling/incapable to admit even to himself that the problem was with him, that he was sterile/his semen was so twisted and tainted that it could not produce viable children even with the help of magic (unlike the Conqueror's semen who may have quickened in Visenya's womb as late as it did because Visenya used magic to help it along), shifted the blame to Tyanna, insisting that she must have poisoned his two wives. And then he had her tortured until she told him what he wanted to hear.

Maegor claimed that Ceryse Hightower was barren but he was married to Alys Harroway since 39 AC (with her getting pregnant only in 44 AC) and had sex with Tyanna since 40 AC without impregnating either of them in those years. And we also know that the man had desperately tried to produce children for decades. He married Ceryse at the age of thirteen. We know he tried to impregnate women outside of wedlock and can be reasonably sure he began doing that long before the Conqueror died. He was apparently a very lusty boy at his wedding and the age gap of ten years doesn't make it very likely that husband and wife were very close to each other during their long marriage (even back when Maegor still had no reason to resent Ceryse for her 'barrenness').

In that sense there is small chance that Ceryse was barren and that Maegor's semen only turned sour after his coma/death and subsequent restoration/resurrection.

Another important detail is the fact that the time line allows for Alys only to become pregnant after the death of Visenya in 44 AC. If true, that could indicate that Visenya prevented Maegor and Tyanna from using certain spells to help Maegor conceive children, knowing that this could backfire the way it did.

If magic can help you to conceive children - and if it can resurrect/heal people it should also help with that - then it is very odd that Visenya (who is rumored to have practiced sorcery, too) never helped Maegor to overcome his problems. Could be that Tyanna was a better and more experienced sorceress, of course, but if they used sorcery for that already in Pentos then it is odd that neither Alys nor Tyanna herself (ever) got pregnant in those days.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

This is a very old idea.

I figured as much, but I have never seen the idea stated as a theory. Of course, I have not paid much attention to the TWOIAF subforum. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are not that bad that magic was used to wake Maegor from his coma (in a similar way Mirri Maz Duur saved Drogo from certain death) or even to call him back from death.

However, the chances that this spell was intricately linked to Tyanna doesn't seem to be the case since Maegor did kill Tyanna and continue to live afterwards. 

But we don't know how long he lived following the death of Tyanna, do we? All I could gather was that he died after her, and they both died during the year 48. It could have been a matter of days or weeks or months, I think. The OP kinda relies on the speculative assumption that the period was not very long, and perhaps that Maegor might have become increasingly erratic after he put down Tyanna. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is quite clear that the losses of mommy and Tyanna clearly greatly affected him. We have no clear picture on the time line but I guess the murder of Tyanna took place rather shortly after his death. I imagine Rhaena stole Blackfyre and fled on Dreamfyre in the days after Tyanna's death. A Maegor lying in broken in drunken sleep, not really caring what happens outside seems to be something that could only happen after the disaster of the two latest monstrosities and Tyanna's confession and death (Ran and Linda indicate that Tyanna went through gruesome torture at Maegor's hands before her death).

I doubt the idea that Tyanna poisoned anyone, though. I think Maegor's used Tyanna's magics in an attempt to impregnate women - first Alys in 44 AC, and then later on in 47-48 AC Elinor Costayne and Jeyne Westerling. It is Tyanna who puts the blame of the first monstrosity birth eventually to Alys Harroway, claiming she has committed adultery, leading to the eradication of the Harroways. Why did she do that? Rumor has it that Alys and Tyanna had become lovers, too, back during the days of Maegor's exile in Pentos. While Tyanna seems to have been a very ruthless person I doubt she was particularly jealous of Alys - if there was a wife of Maegor's she would have resented it would have been Rhaena Targaryen, presumably, since a child by her most certainly would have become Maegor's heir had she given the king a healthy child.

But if we assume that Tyanna was helping/preparing Maegor to father a child with spells, magical potions, etc. then it is not unlikely at all that she had to shift the blame for the monstrous child to Alys to save her own life. After all, Maegor had everyone killed who was involved in the birth, and only turned against Alys and the Harroways thereafter. Another logical point would have been to turn against the sorceress who helped Maegor to father a child in the first place. This worked in 44 AC but failed in 48 AC. Maegor, completely unwilling/incapable to admit even to himself that the problem was with him, that he was sterile/his semen was so twisted and tainted that it could not produce viable children even with the help of magic (unlike the Conqueror's semen who may have quickened in Visenya's womb as late as it did because Visenya used magic to help it along), shifted the blame to Tyanna, insisting that she must have poisoned his two wives. And then he had her tortured until she told him what he wanted to hear. 

I agree with you for the most part. I am thinking that Tyanna's "confession" was forced, or perhaps twisted, based on Maegor's torture of her, and what he wanted to get out of her. And there is not that much space between "my magic poisoned you and your seed" and "I poised your seed in the wombs," especially as perceived by a madman like Maegor (I doubt he had a septa down in the black cells recording Tyanna's confession verbatim.) 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maegor claimed that Ceryse Hightower was barren but he was married to Alys Harroway since 39 AC (with her getting pregnant only in 44 AC) and had sex with Tyanna since 40 AC without impregnating either of them in those years. And we also know that the man had desperately tried to produce children for decades. He married Ceryse at the age of thirteen. We know he tried to impregnate women outside of wedlock and can be reasonably sure he began doing that long before the Conqueror died. He was apparently a very lusty boy at his wedding and the age gap of ten years doesn't make it very likely that husband and wife were very close to each other during their long marriage (even back when Maegor still had no reason to resent Ceryse for her 'barrenness').

In that sense there is small chance that Ceryse was barren and that Maegor's semen only turned sour after his coma/death and subsequent restoration/resurrection.

The theory that Tyanna revived Maegor with magic does not depend on whether Maegor was sterile. But I am thinking that Maegor's spunk was not junk until after Tyanna revived him, and that the voodoo Tyanna used turned Maegor's spunk to junk. As you note, the story allows us to assume that Cersye was barren. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Another important detail is the fact that the time line allows for Alys only to become pregnant after the death of Visenya in 44 AC. If true, that could indicate that Visenya prevented Maegor and Tyanna from using certain spells to help Maegor conceive children, knowing that this could backfire the way it did.

If magic can help you to conceive children - and if it can resurrect/heal people it should also help with that - then it is very odd that Visenya (who is rumored to have practiced sorcery, too) never helped Maegor to overcome his problems. Could be that Tyanna was a better and more experienced sorceress, of course, but if they used sorcery for that already in Pentos then it is odd that neither Alys nor Tyanna herself (ever) got pregnant in those days.

Ooh, I like that. Let's say Visenya was not able to revive Maegor on her own, but Tyanna's kung fu was stronger. Still, Visenya wouldn't let Tyanna help Maegor conceive, believing that the cost would be too high, but after Visenya's death, Tyanna began helping Maegor to conceive, and Visenya turned out to be right about the cost. 

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But we don't know how long he lived following the death of Tyanna, do we? All I could gather was that he died after her, and they both died during the year 48. It could have been a matter of days or weeks or months, I think. The OP kinda relies on the speculative assumption that the period was not very long, and perhaps that Maegor might have become increasingly erratic after he put down Tyanna.

Yeah, well, he apparently bled to death on the Iron Throne. He didn't die the way we would expect somebody to die who was only kept alive by the magical mojo of his late wife.

What little we get from Yandel indicates the issue of his children really drove Maegor over the edge. It is what forced him into this ridiculous black brides polygamy thing that apparently greatly contributed to his final downfall. He had two of those twisted children shortly before his own death, suffered through Tyanna's 'betrayal' and Rhaena's escape and the loss of Blackfyre.

Come to think of it, since Rhaena stole Blackfyre and Maegor cut Tyanna's heart of her chest with Blackfyre Rhaena's escape took place thereafter. And it also seems that he was on his own trying to call his banners, defending the city and castle, etc. There must have passed some time. But Tyanna's death most likely had a huge impact on all that.

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree with you for the most part. I am thinking that Tyanna's "confession" was forced, or perhaps twisted, based on Maegor's torture of her, and what he wanted to get out of her. And there is not that much space between "my magic poisoned you and your seed" and "I poised your seed in the wombs," especially as perceived by a madman like Maegor (I doubt he had a septa down in the black cells recording Tyanna's confession verbatim.) 

It may make a difference to Maegor if we assume he knew what he himself was.

My own theory going back to the reading of TSotD in London is that neither Aenys nor Maegor are the Conqueror's children. Aenys is the bastard of some singer or mummer and Maegor is the product of sorcery. Either a male clone of Visenya (the more interesting idea) or a son of Aegon and Visenya created with the help of magic (because Aegon's semen had a lot of issues).

Gyldayn describes Aenys and Maegor as the Conqueror cut in two (and they really come off as good and evil Kirk in that classical Star Trek episode) but they can also be described as dialed-up male versions of Rhaenys and Visenya, respectively.

Be that as it may, if Maegor was himself a product of unnatural magic to begin with then magically messing with his semen may have been ever more riskier than had he been a normal guy.

And if he knew what he was - or suspected it, had heard rumors about it - he may not have been able to accept that, doing everything in his power to push that truth away. Which is why Tyanna had to poison the women rather than him.

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The theory that Tyanna revived Maegor with magic does not depend on whether Maegor was sterile. But I am thinking that Maegor's spunk was not junk until after Tyanna revived him, and that the voodoo Tyanna used turned Maegor's spunk to junk. As you note, the story allows us to assume that Cersye was barren.

Well, Ceryse also may have been barren, but why doesn't Maegor have any bastards throughout the decades of his life? Surely he would have legitimized some of those rather than going through the motions of the black brides travesty... And how is it that he and Alys/Tyanna didn't have any children back in Pentos? Maegor spent two years there.

A Maegor sharing the bed only with Ceryse since his wedding in 25 AC up until the marriage to Alys in 39 AC is very unlikely.

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ooh, I like that. Let's say Visenya was not able to revive Maegor on her own, but Tyanna's kung fu was stronger. Still, Visenya wouldn't let Tyanna help Maegor conceive, believing that the cost would be too high, but after Visenya's death, Tyanna began helping Maegor to conceive, and Visenya turned out to be right about the cost. 

Yeah, that's pretty much it. There is a lot of subtext of this sort going on in TSotD. And we do know from the ancient sample of TWoIaF that it was indeed Visenya who sent away all the maesters and physicians caring for Maegor and put the well-being of her son in the care of Tyanna alone after they had had a little talk. The fragment we have indicates that Alys and Tyanna arrived by ship from Pentos shortly before the end of Maegor's coma. Visenya-Vhagar and Maegor-Balerion flew back from Pentos to Dragonstone and then apparently immediately moved on to KL after they had staged a quick coronation and put down the Grand Maester/imprisoned the Queen Dowager Alyssa and her children.

The fact that other people tended Maegor before Tyanna took over doesn't make it all that likely that he did die. If he had died, the chances are pretty good that word would have gotten out. And considering that it was a Trial of Seven it would have been the end of the Targaryen reign.

Sure, the Targaryen loyalists would also have had a vital interest to keep Maegor's death a secret. But then, there are other Targaryens out there - Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena, Prince Viserys, etc. And Visenya doesn't strike me as stupid enough to hide a corpse to pretend her son is still alive. If Maegor had died she would have faced that truth and gone on to crown her step-grandson/grandnephew Aegon.

At this point there wasn't as much bad blood between the lines than there was after the Gods Eye or the cruel death of Prince Viserys. After that, it was all-out war, presumably.

Hopefully we learn a little bit more in October.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Hopefully we learn a little bit more in October.

 

I expect we will, but hopefully it will be vague enough to continue some debate. 

[Jon Fossoway]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:59 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's part of what I am suggesting. 

Was he a firewight?

 

[YOVMO]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:55 AM, Seams said:

Candidate for Tywin's puppetmaster: Maggie the Frog was active in the Westerlands, and there is a line of witchy women who descend from her . . .

While this is interesting I think there are some fundamental problems with it. First of all, there is no noticeable change in tywin's personality. The tywin we see at Tyrion's trial is much the same man that brought down the Reynes. In fact, Tywin's character from the earliest mentions of it to the way he spoke to Tyrion right before being killed show a very consistent character. If he at some point died, was shadow bound and puppeted then the shadow binder basically had him act the way he always acted. ALso, to what end would Tywin have been shadowbound? His actions all benefitted house Lannister. In no way did Tywin do anything that benefitted anyone other than Tywin.

When it comes to tin foil, especially super natural tin foil, I always ask one important question....."If True, what does this mean for the story." If Tywin died at some point before or after the start of GOT and was brought back to life as a puppet only to act in a way consistent with how he had been his whole life anyway then it is a major bit of supernatural that doesn't give us anything which isn't grrms style at all.

[Lost Melnibonean]

59 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Was he a firewight?

 

I don't really like that term. You mean like Beric and Catelyn? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

34 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

When it comes to tin foil, especially super natural tin foil, I always ask one important question....."If True, what does this mean for the story." If Tywin died at some point before or after the start of GOT and was brought back to life as a puppet only to act in a way consistent with how he had been his whole life anyway then it is a major bit of supernatural that doesn't give us anything which isn't grrms style at all.

Good test. 

[Jon Fossoway]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't really like that term. You mean like Beric and Catelyn? 

Yep, like em.