ERRI8013

Coming back from the dead should change characters (Jon Snow)

26 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Despite Martin's criticism of Gandalf's resurrection, Beric Dondarrion came back the same, more or less. Sure, he's lost pieces of his memory, but from what we know about him, his personality has remained intact. He is still a protector of the smallfolk, and this is after being raised from the dead six times. Why do people expect Jon to have a drastic change and turn darker after being resurrected once?

I just want Jon to die and if he has to come back, to come back as a wight with a very short life.  I agree with the commenter who pointed out that book and show are different.  George will follow through on what he said but HBO is telling a very different story. 

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We are all overthinking it.  On close inspection, D&D's 'plot' unravels.  Nothing really makes sense.  So don't think about it too deeply, don't pose too many questions; just suspend disbelief and enjoy the show for what it is -- a beautifully filmed, rather trite fairy tale replete with enough 'tits and dragons' to satisfy the least discerning.

In any case, despite GRRM's protestations about Gandalf being a cheat and happy ewoks being too much to take, we will still be getting a Star Wars scenario (so much for the groundbreaking  'subversion of the tropes'...):  with Jon as Luke Skywalker triumphantly dispatching his less popular family member Bran as Anakin Skywalker-turned Darth Vader.  This explains why Jon hasn't suffered a change, in fact has never looked better vs. Bran who has inexplicably undergone a drastic change for the worse overnight, so when Jon kills Bran the audience is happy that the 'right' guy won.  It's all about 'winning' after all -- or more precisely, 'not losing'.  It's really that simple.

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Yeah, it's cheating. When you die, things should change.

For one the watch. Why don't they talk about it. Their commander was stabbed to death, but he still runs about. That_is_awkward. Where are the people being scared?

On the other hand, it should change Jon Snow. I can tell you, if someone stabbed me and then I am raised from the dead, that would chance my character pretty much. I would buy a white blanket to wear, grow a mighty beard, found a new religion and have lots of sex with my followers. But what would change for Jon Snow? Why is he not talking hours and hours with Melisandre about how that is even possible. And what it means. WW are coming, history is happening and he is raised from the dead? Weird?

Would have liked to see Jon Snow grow up. Like there is the idea of him being no bastard anymore, even being Lord of Winterfell, king of the north. Everything he dared not even think of as the bastard that he is. And then he dies and he realizes... what. That there is nothing important as the wall right now? Everything he wished for is not important anymore. For example. Or maybe something else. But at least SOMETHING. I am not talking about metaphysical things that might or might not happen to you due to the fact of dying and raising, I mean the sheer fact that you *know* that you died and that you raised from the dead. This changes people. But they are not even talking about it.

He is raised from the dead like I raise from my bed each morning. The only thing missing was him having a morning boner.

Edited by twilight

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17 hours ago, Superzapper Recharge said:

I just want Jon to die and if he has to come back, to come back as a wight with a very short life.  I agree with the commenter who pointed out that book and show are different.  George will follow through on what he said but HBO is telling a very different story. 

I take it you're not a Jon fan. I don't really care how Jon comes back. The problem is that Martin has already set a precedent for how people "change" when they are brought back from the dead. When Beric was brought back, he lost pieces of his memory but his personality and morality remained unchanged. Lady Stoneheart contradicted the precedent already set, but Martin presented it in a logical way. If Jon comes back in the same way as Beric and Martin makes him darker and changes his personality drastically for the sake of the story, it will be bad writing. In order to make it work, the circumstances of his resurrection have to be more similar to Lady Stoneheart's.

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46 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I take it you're not a Jon fan. I don't really care how Jon comes back. The problem is that Martin has already set a precedent for how people "change" when they are brought back from the dead. When Beric was brought back, he lost pieces of his memory but his personality and morality remained unchanged. Lady Stoneheart contradicted the precedent already set, but Martin presented it in a logical way. If Jon comes back in the same way as Beric and Martin makes him darker and changes his personality drastically for the sake of the story, it will be bad writing. In order to make it work, the circumstances of his resurrection have to be more similar to Lady Stoneheart's.

We also have an important prologue in A dance of dragons that tells us something on what happens when somebody dies and get into the body of a wolf... I don't think it's a case that Martin created that parallel with the death of Jon Snow.

If, as expected, after his death Jon passed some time into Ghost he should get rid of part of his humanity in favour of being "wolfish"...

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On 05/08/2017 at 10:21 AM, Cas Stark said:

Martin is going to have to cheat himself.  Unless Jon isn't a POV character anymore, he's going to have to reflect the fact that he's undead, assuming he dies, which I now do.   He can make him darker or harder, but that's not much of a change, and if he has no internal thoughts, then he won't be a POV character and the author has undercut his story...who cares when the zombie finds out about his parents?  

Jon's resurrection could (and probably should) have some physical consequences, even if the mental ones are reduced by, say, Jon's spirit surviving in Ghost. In the show he seems completely normal.

I'm actually really disappointed in Jon's lack of change. Even if the resurrection itself hasn't changed him, the experience of being murdered and the reasons why should have had an effect on Jon. He should be much more cautious about making unpopular (even if correct) decisions; that's what got him killed as Lord Commander. He seems exactly the same as he was before he died.

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