Titles and Styles

[Prince Jon Targaryen]

I wanted to get people's take on this. While reviewing Kings of Westeros on ASOIAF Wikia, I looked at all these titles various lords, petty Kings, and Targs used throughout the centuries. In this weeks GoT episode, there was a moment in which the viewers may have reflected on the lack of styles and titles for the King in the North, Jon Snow (if you've seen in you'll know what I'm talking about). So I thought about the various titles that Jon Snow and Renly Baratheon may have used.

Jon Snow: Let me get this straight, I believe there's power in simplicity, and Jon probably wouldn't accept most of these high-and-mighty titles. But this is just to imagine, so all kneel for Jon Snow, King in the North and of the Trident, Lord of Winter, the White Wolf, Shield of The Realm, and Protector of the Night's Watch.

Renly is a fanciful prick who doesn't give a fig about actually being a king, he just wants to dress up like and be called one. I can't think of ones that make sense besides the originals, so all kneel for Renly Baratheon, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm.

[Bluetiger]

Wrong subforum... And GoT spoilers.

[TMIFairy]

17 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

In this weeks GoT episode,

Run!

Our Forks Are Blunt!

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Don't think he has claimed the Trident which is smart, probably something along the lines of 1st among the free folk or some crap to include north of the wall.

Renly might want to mention flower of the Reach if he wants to give a nod to his in-laws, but more than likely he keeps the Targ titles his brother had.

Had he been victorious he might have styled himself lion tamer

[Graydon Hicks]

i always found the use of titles interesting, cause its usually not the ruler who picks, save for the standard ones  for the whoever sits the iron throne. but daenerys where are bestowed on her by her followers. its an indication of how the followers of each proclaimed monarch view those kings and queens. look at how people called dareon the young dragon, or robb the young wolf. jaeherys was called the conciliator and alysanne was the good queen. rhaegar was the silver prince, and the nicknames for several of the great bastards, like bittersteel and bloodraven. these epithets are normally given by the people observing these notables, and reflect how the observers see them.

hell, i even found it in fanfics, ones where jon is raised by rhaegar, where jon is called the dark prince for his penchant for wearing black and his somber brooding nature.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Monarchs usually have posthumous titles to help distinguish ordinal numbers.

I doubt many people deared called the mad king mad during his lifetime, he was probably aiming for Areys the great considering his grand schemes.

How will Robert be remembered good King Robert? Considering how peaceful his reign was in comparison to the wo5k, or would Dany or Cersei name him glutton or worse should they rule long enough to shape how history is recorded.

Of all of Danys titles mother of Dragon is probably the one she will retain after death.

[Steel Stag]

King Jon Snow - The bastard of Winterfell, the man who betrayed the nights watch, the man who was killed for treason, the man who would have lost the battle of the bastard, the man who usurped his sister. 

[Daena the Defiant]

8 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i always found the use of titles interesting, cause its usually not the ruler who picks, save for the standard ones  for the whoever sits the iron throne. but daenerys where are bestowed on her by her followers. its an indication of how the followers of each proclaimed monarch view those kings and queens. look at how people called dareon the young dragon, or robb the young wolf. jaeherys was called the conciliator and alysanne was the good queen. rhaegar was the silver prince, and the nicknames for several of the great bastards, like bittersteel and bloodraven. these epithets are normally given by the people observing these notables, and reflect how the observers see them.

hell, i even found it in fanfics, ones where jon is raised by rhaegar, where jon is called the dark prince for his penchant for wearing black and his somber brooding nature.

In aGoT, Cersei self-styled herself "The Light of the West."

[Graydon Hicks]

did she bestow that one on herself, or might that have been something she was acclaimed during her childhood? she was very beautiful young lady then too.

[Orphalesion]

Some of the examples posted here aren't actually "titles', rather they are "surnames" (basically nick names) Like, for example "The Mad King" was never Aerys II's formal title in any way, neither when he was alive nor postmortem. It's a surname. A name given to him to distinguish him in accordance to a defining characteristic (in this case his madness". The same is true for "The Young Wolf" "The Realm's Delight" "Stormborn" "Damphair" etc etc etc. Those aren't formal titles, those are basically Nicknames. 

These nick-/surnames can be bestowed upon a person by basically everyone and whether they survive is  only up to whether they are popular/catchy enough.

Formal titles, however, are very serious business in a feudal society, because they tend to hold actual power (usually) and/or prestige. Those titles can only be given or created by a monarch, inherited or conquered by force. These are everything from "King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms" over "Warden of the North" down to "Lord of Grassy Vale" 

Daenerys has several of both, surnames and formal titles, or at least lays claim to them. 

The formal titles she possesses or lays claim to are:

1) Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men (title created by Aegon I, currently held by King Tommen Baratheon)

2) Lady of the Seven Kingdoms (title created by Aegon I, currently held by King Tommen Baratheon)

3) Protector of the Realm (title created by Aegon I, currently held by King Tommen Baratheon)

3) Queen of Meereen (created by her through right of conquest, and the only actual title she currently holds de facto) 

4)Princess of Dragonstone (her ancestral title)

5)Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea (created by her, but currently a completely empty title, since she doesn't hold any power over that area)

These are the titles that describe the extend of her power and authority (or at least the extend she lays claim to) can be distreibuted by her to others (theoretically) and be inherited by any potential children.

And then she has all those surnames like "Stormborn" (because she was born during a storm), Mother of Dragons (because she hatched those eggs) and Breaker of Chains (because she freed the slaves)

Those may sound nice but they aren't formal titles, hold no power and can't be inherited by her children. They are just nicknames she chooses to include into her formal name, because they sound nice.

So, assuming if Jon Snow was to restore an independent Kingdom of the North, first he'd have to consolidate the title "King in the North" (most likely through war against the Iron Throne) that would still be the only title he'd have, because none other exist as of now. Well, I suppose he could go for something like "King in the North, Lord of Winterfell".

To add "King of the Trident", in order to mirror Robb's claims, he'd have to conquer the Riverlands (or at least the land around the Trident) and consolidate that title as well.

He could try to stile himself "King of the First Men" but then the Iron Throne might get grouchy over the fact that such a title would lay claim on all First Men, everywhere, including those living on the Iron Islands and the Three Sisters as well as other families that identify as predominantly First Men (such as the Royces). So it'd be a very big claim, for very little gain. 

And "King of the Wildlings" wouldn't work at all because the Wildlings don't work that way. It'd just be an office he'd hold and that would disappear again with his death.

"Protector of the Night's Watch" would be very tricky, since it would depend on the Night's Watch agreeing to it, and those people are stupider than a bread basket when it comes to recognizing good ideas. Though if he abolishes the Night's Watch, takes up Stannis' suggestion to give the castles along the wall to nobles, and Stannis croaks, Jon could theoretically create a title like "Lord of the Wall" for himself. Which, again, would need to be consolidated.

He could, of course, give himself all manner of fancy and powerful sounding nick/surnames, but I don't think that would be quite in character for him.

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

2) Lady of the Seven Kingdoms (title created by Aegon I, currently held by King Tommen Baratheon)

Hmmm, are you sure about this?

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Hmmm, are you sure about this?

Well, he is obviously "Lord", but she'd be lady, same rank just different sexes.

[TMIFairy]

Oh, silly me, I missed that it was a list of Daenerys' potential titles!

Point and laugh and call me stupid ...

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 7:20 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Monarchs usually have posthumous titles to help distinguish ordinal numbers.

I doubt many people deared called the mad king mad during his lifetime, he was probably aiming for Areys the great considering his grand schemes.

How will Robert be remembered good King Robert? Considering how peaceful his reign was in comparison to the wo5k, or would Dany or Cersei name him glutton or worse should they rule long enough to shape how history is recorded.

Of all of Danys titles mother of Dragon is probably the one she will retain after death.

The demon of the Trident  for Robert , I think Robert would like it .

[Arin]

Don't forget about the third constituent kingdom of the Starks' North: the Vale. Since we are discussing series!Jon, we should consider the series-exclusive fact that Littlefinger declared for the North valid. The Vale is also conveniently located for its levies to enter and liberate the Riverlands, kicking any Lannister or Frey stragglers out.

 

So Jon's title must be King of the North, the Trident and the Vale. That's what the lords of the Vale wanted back in Robb's time, while Lysa was holding them back and enforcing neutrality.