Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

87 posts in this topic

Probably better, especially with the choice to end in 8 truncated seasons.  That said, the show has not done a good job in creating an alternative plot that slows down Dany's triumph in Westeros.  Having Cersei manufacture armies and loyalties out of dust and then have Dany make a string of obviously poor decisions to 'keep things interesting' hasn't worked from a plot perspective.  It may be entertaining, but it doesn't hold together as a story.

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I think the series missed a trick when it decided to omit young Griff as a character. But maybe that's personal opinion coming in because young Griff was someone I found massively interesting in the books.

I can see why they didn't, though. Especially if he is a fake Aegon after all. He would have been another character they added in quite far into the story just to most likely kill off, as no one truly believes he's going to last until the end of the books.

If the show was going to last 9 or 10 seasons, young Griff would have been a necessity. But imagine what young Griff's presence in the show would have done to poor Cersei. She'd have been marginalised and maybe long gone. And it's quite clear she is a big favourite of the producers.

But, yeah, I believe he would have improved the show. One of the biggest disappointments in the show, for me, was his omission.

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Worse.  Totally worse.  Not biased at all on this :P  

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I think it all boils down to what Aegon/ FAegon is going to be to all of these characters in the coming books.  If he is an obstacle to Dany then I think the time to introduce him was season 3, same way they did with Ramsay who was a developed antagonist to Jon.  If he's going to be just another unsuccessful contender for the throne then he is probably just a complication that an already complicated series couldn't fool with.

 Book spoiler

Spoiler

I think ultimately he and Jon Connington are the vehicles for getting Tyrion and Jorah back to Westeros and in Dany's presence because of their affiliation with the Golden Company.

 

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Worse. It ruined Varys character & early season decisions for me (Viserys being his ACTUAL choice to take over the Seven Kingdoms? Are you fucking serious??) & he could of been a great obstacle for Dany & a great twist. All the casuals will be completely thrown off Jon's scent as a secret Targ if they would of introduced Rhaegar's "son" earlier on.

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Young Griff's omission from the show robbed of a visual of one of the greatest scenes in the books, in my opinion: the epilogue of aDwD where Varys kills Kevin Lannister and lays down his speech revealing his plan for Aegon to rule.

Without Aegon in the show, Varys has been snipped figuratively as much as he has been literally.

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As it stands, better, but not by much because there was no worthwhile replacement. Aegon in the books might be my least favourite part of the whole series, because it is such a late-game asspull and the moment I realised these books will never be finished because apparently major players and plotlines can enter the story at any moment put of nowhere. 

If the show were to include him, they should have been doing setup from S1, but they didn't, so it was best to cut him completely. 

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Better it allows people who read the books to have something different feel.

We are spared the constant comments of how it was not done right. It also will still have been highly simplified which people would of complained about. 

It allows Daenery' s as the Targaryen to return to have full impact. Having follow to follow Dany for years only to introduce another and arrive within what would of been one season would of had some what of cheapening feel.o

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39 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

As it stands, better, but not by much because there was no worthwhile replacement. Aegon in the books might be my least favourite part of the whole series, because it is such a late-game asspull and the moment I realised these books will never be finished because apparently major players and plotlines can enter the story at any moment put of nowhere. 

If the show were to include him, they should have been doing setup from S1, but they didn't, so it was best to cut him completely. 

I don't think it as bad that GRRM introduced him so late in the books as he did, as there is a larger opportunity to explain these things and give the back story in the books.

Unless Aegon was brought in a lot earlier in the show, one of the earlier seasons, it wouldn't have worked. If he just suddenly appeared in season 5 or that, there would be so much explaining to do it would just become total exposition and ridiculous.

The fact they didn't add him into the show suggests he isn't going to last long in the books. I got the same impression when they killed off Stannis in the show. Which was disappointing as Stannis and Aegon are two of my favourite characters.

 

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Posted (edited)

Worse, but not because it diverges from the book; the problem is that the show wanted to keep Daenerys at bay when she arrived in Westeros, but without Aegon, they had to give that role to Cersei, and this "Cersei is more dangerous than we thought" arc doesn't make any sense to anybody who can think just a tiny bit.

Edited by Paid Debt Lannister

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1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't think it as bad that GRRM introduced him so late in the books as he did, as there is a larger opportunity to explain these things and give the back story in the books.

Unless Aegon was brought in a lot earlier in the show, one of the earlier seasons, it wouldn't have worked. If he just suddenly appeared in season 5 or that, there would be so much explaining to do it would just become total exposition and ridiculous.

The fact they didn't add him into the show suggests he isn't going to last long in the books. I got the same impression when they killed off Stannis in the show. Which was disappointing as Stannis and Aegon are two of my favourite characters.

 

Sure, but all further info given still doesn't change anything about his entry into the story. Imagine if in Winds we find out that Rhaenys is alive too, and she was in Sothoryos this whole time, gathering up an army to take back the throne, and then we spend chapter after chapter on her. That's what Aegon was in Dance.

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Worse, because it means Cersei has to act as the stumbling block to Dany's conquest, which really doesn't make sense. It will never add up to me how Cersei could wield any power at all after season 6, considering that she has been literally stripped of her dignity, wiped out the most important religous building in the western world, murdered her own allies and uncle and oversaw her own son's suicide. (Not technically her fault, but I don't see why others wouldn't think she'd just gone bezerk and killed Tommen.) You also have to deal with Randyll Tarly, a blatant and aggressive misogynist, breaking from his liege lord to help Cersei, a woman who is basically an evil cartoon of a "crazy woman."

Plus, teleporting armies, one sided battles and no one ever scouting anything. How many times can the writers pull the same "army from nowhere" routine? Blackwater, Castle black, Hardhome, first battle of winterfell, Dany getting captured, battle for Mereen, second battle for winterfell, Euron hitting the Sand snake fleet, Euron hitting the unsullied, Jaime hitting Highgarden...

And now the dothraki sneaking up on Jaime

It's just getting ridiculous.  

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2 hours ago, Lautrec said:

Sure, but all further info given still doesn't change anything about his entry into the story. Imagine if in Winds we find out that Rhaenys is alive too, and she was in Sothoryos this whole time, gathering up an army to take back the throne, and then we spend chapter after chapter on her. That's what Aegon was in Dance.

I disagree with your comparison to Rhaenys appearing in WoW. Aegon was a late addition, true, but coming in the 5th book of 7 isn't too late to have an impact. Appearing suddenly in the penultimate book would be nigh on ridiculous, so it's not the same.

In my opinion, Aegon and Jon Connington slotted into the story seamlessly. Other than the fact I would have liked to have seen more of Aegon's trials up until the point we were introduced to him, the timing couldn't have been much better. The fact he gets things done and has landed in Westeros before Daenerys goes to make him a more interesting character than she is, fake Targaryen or not.

Admittedly, I do see why his inclusion into the show would have been more of a red herring and complication. His sudden appearance in the books worked, but his sudden appearance in the show would have left a lot of non-book fans thinking 'this is getting a bit ridiculous now', especially with the revelation of Jon's true parents. 

Imagine the show had included young Griff and it eventually reveals he's a Targaryen, then reveals Jon's a Targaryen and if there is anything in the A+J=T theory, reveals Tyrion is a Targaryen (speculation, of course) the viewers would be left thinking 'who the hell isn't a Targaryen?'

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12 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I disagree with your comparison to Rhaenys appearing in WoW. Aegon was a late addition, true, but coming in the 5th book of 7 isn't too late to have an impact. Appearing suddenly in the penultimate book would be nigh on ridiculous, so it's not the same.

In my opinion, Aegon and Jon Connington slotted into the story seamlessly. Other than the fact I would have liked to have seen more of Aegon's trials up until the point we were introduced to him, the timing couldn't have been much better. The fact he gets things done and has landed in Westeros before Daenerys goes to make him a more interesting character than she is, fake Targaryen or not.

Admittedly, I do see why his inclusion into the show would have been more of a red herring and complication. His sudden appearance in the books worked, but his sudden appearance in the show would have left a lot of non-book fans thinking 'this is getting a bit ridiculous now', especially with the revelation of Jon's true parents. 

Imagine the show had included young Griff and it eventually reveals he's a Targaryen, then reveals Jon's a Targaryen and if there is anything in the A+J=T theory, reveals Tyrion is a Targaryen (speculation, of course) the viewers would be left thinking 'who the hell isn't a Targaryen?'

I really don't see that big of a difference between appearing for the first time in the fifth or sixth of seven novels. In any case it's too late. At that time we are well past the point of introducing new and big characters into the story. Aegon appears 1.3 million words into the story, which is, for perspective's sake, 3 times the length of the entirety of LOTR. If he appeared first in ASoS, then that would be maybe okay. Clash would be best. It wouldn't take much, just a few chapters. Or even having the ASoS prologue be about him, even that would be enough. Just something to not make it seem like he comes out of nowhere. That is basically my main point. Even though it is too late, it could have worked, if there was proper set-up, but there isn't. 

I also wouldn't really say he is an interesting character. He is a bad plot-device seen through the perspective of an interesting character. Two interesting characters, actually. His entire purpose in the plot will be to make Dany's conquest harder. Which is fine, but could have been done much better. Not that what the show is doing is good, it's bad, but at least it's using a character, Cersei, that has been with us since the first episode and is someone whose plot we are engaged with. 

As for the Targaryen reveals, yes, that would be ridiculous, which is why I am glad they cut him. Nor will Tyrion be revealed as a Targaryen. Not to digress, but 99% of theories are nonsense, especially concerning secret Targs and who will be dragonriders. I have no clue why people even think anyone has to ride Viserion or Rhaegal, especially on the show.

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Granted, for whatever reason the showrunners chose to reduce the number of episodes, but had there been a bit more time, this would've been my solution for the Aegon problem:

Replace Aegon with Edric Storm. Make it so Edric was the bastard of Robert with Elia Martell, or with a random Martell woman created only for the show who died in childbirth, but managed to live long enough to force Robert to acknowledge the child as his son and to agree to raise him in Storm's End. It is believed in the realm that Edric is a sort of hostage to guarantee the Martells' obedience. Anyway, the point is that Edric needs to be part Dornish. 

We're first introduced to Edric as early as season 2. Renly introduces him to Cat as his secret weapon against Stannis: as long as Renly has Edric, Stannis has no evidence of the twincest. Then Renly dies, Stannis captures Edric, Mel wants to burn him, Davos saves him, etc, etc. 

Here is where things change: Davos entrusts Edric to the care of Saladhor Saan to smuggle him to safety, but Sala is secretly working for Illyrio/Varys. Their plan is to spread the rumors that Robert legitimized all of his bastards in his deathbed a la Aegon the Unworthy, and Varys' forged a fake will with Bob's seal and signature. 

Of course, people's motivations would have to change. Illyrio's is strictly economical: he wants to use Edric's reign to secure the trade with Westeros and exceed the wealth of the Iron Bank. You could keep Varys' Blackfyre angle (assuming that theory is true) and say he wants to secure Daemon's legacy by granting the Golden Company their lands back. In a way it works as a grand version of Illyrio and Varys' old con: they steal Westeros' king (Edric) and the price to get him back is a shit load of "gold": the Golden Company. You could even keep the Dance of the Dragons motif, only it'd be between Dany (the red dragon) and Varys (the black dragon). 

You could even introduce Jon Connington too, only you'd have to make it so he was in love with someone like Oberyn or something like that, and you'd keep most of the same beats of the character. 

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It's difficult to say without knowing how vital a role Aegon will play in the remaining books, but as of right now, I believe the show is better for not including him. I just can't see Aegon playing that big of a part and it seems Martin only set him up to be an obstacle for Danerys to overcome. Plus, I never found him to be that interesting of a character to begin with.

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Posted (edited)

I could see why people wouldn't be crazy on that storyline. However, the show choosing to make it all about muh Cersei/Lena Headey because she's their personal favourite really messes with the story. If I was to cut Aegon I would make sure that characters and story don't suffer. Like Varys as has been said in the thread. Like seriously he truly wanted to replace Robert with Viserys?? As bad as a king as Robert was the realm was at peace and mostly stable. Varys undermining that to replace him with Viserys is ridiculous since hes a lunatic and was bringing the Dothraki and would have punished all those who fought against Aerys in the rebellion. Hell he probably would have been defeated by the combined forces of everyone with Robert et. al still around. So, what then for Varys after all that planning and years of moving things into place for it to be squashed?

Edited by The Bear Who Knocks

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I think that seeing what in the show this season Aegon should have been included. The thruth is everybody has had enough of cersei, we wouldn t need the ridiculous disaperance of the dornish and reach armies for reasons no one understands, we wouldn t have people misteriously accepting cersei as their queen, we wouldn t have the infinite lannister army and other idiotic plots!

 

To me after cersei burned the septon the smallfolk of KL shoud have rebelled and killed her and her soldiers in the city. Then Aegon arrives as the hero of the people, the heir to the throne, etc... with a dornish wife and making some highgarden hand and with the golden company. This combination would be a much more believable chalenge for danny than cersei is. In adition, instead of ignoring the riverlands and the vale they should have them unite with the north so that we would have 3 clear factions (Aegon conquered the stormlands before KL)...

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