Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

83 posts in this topic

21 hours ago, Paid Debt Lannister said:

Worse, but not because it diverges from the book; the problem is that the show wanted to keep Daenerys at bay when she arrived in Westeros, but without Aegon, they had to give that role to Cersei, and this "Cersei is more dangerous than we thought" arc doesn't make any sense to anybody who can think just a tiny bit.

Fully agreed. In order to compensate for the lack of Golden Company the Lannisters have been buffed to ridiculous proportions.

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Actually come to think of it, I'd easily have imagined Daenerys wanting to spare King's Landing and treat with Aegon (instead of crazy/paranoid/evil Cersei) who might be her closest relative.

 

That would actually make a lot more sense that the situation we are in right now after 3 episodes.

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28 minutes ago, Tyrek Lannister said:

Actually come to think of it, I'd easily have imagined Daenerys wanting to spare King's Landing and treat with Aegon (instead of crazy/paranoid/evil Cersei) who might be her closest relative.

 

That would actually make a lot more sense that the situation we are in right now after 3 episodes.

Exactly. And the people and lesser lords of Westeros rooting for Aegon (handsome, polite, and by all means a good ruler) makes a LOT MORE SENSE than these bizarre alliances Cersei has been making (destroyer of the Vatican, killer of the Pope, killer of the queen, blew up a part of the city, incestuous... oh come on)

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1 hour ago, divica said:

 

 

To me after cersei burned the septon the smallfolk of KL shoud have rebelled and killed her and her soldiers in the city. Then Aegon arrives as the hero of the people, the heir to the throne, etc... with a dornish wife and making some highgarden hand and with the golden company. This combination would be a much more believable chalenge for danny than cersei is. In adition, instead of ignoring the riverlands and the vale they should have them unite with the north so that we would have 3 clear factions (Aegon conquered the stormlands before KL)...

I agree with this idea. The showrunners could well have introduced Aegon earlier on the series, maybe season 3 or 4. Have him arrive in the Stormlands at some point in season 6, and be there with an army gained by the help of his marriage to someone from Dorne, like Arriane, to take on Cersei, the mad queen.

He'd be welcomed and loved by the small folk immediately for overthrowing a queen that had killed so many of her own people. And being a Targaryen, he would present a far more interesting threat to Danaerys in season 7 as she comes to try and take the throne for herself.

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1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I agree with this idea. The showrunners could well have introduced Aegon earlier on the series, maybe season 3 or 4. Have him arrive in the Stormlands at some point in season 6, and be there with an army gained by the help of his marriage to someone from Dorne, like Arriane, to take on Cersei, the mad queen.

He'd be welcomed and loved by the small folk immediately for overthrowing a queen that had killed so many of her own people. And being a Targaryen, he would present a far more interesting threat to Danaerys in season 7 as she comes to try and take the throne for herself.

I think it could have worked if they introduced him in the primiere of season five (like oberyn was in season 3) and make him give a ride to tyrion like in the books. After that they could make him go hire the golden company with the endrosement of varys or one of his friends and end season five with them sailing to westeros/ starting to conquer the stormlands/ somthing like that.

This would also be good for the story of jon's parentage because we would have more characters that could talk about what happened in the time of robert's rebellion.

 

I think the only possible motives to not use Aegon are that he ends up as being non important in the books, D&D thought he would make danny look lame and stupid because a character in similar conditions as her would be much more efective in conquering westeros or they simply like their feminine empowerment too much.

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Hard to say. I think it would've been interesting to have a  targ character with a better claim to the IT than Dany. But maybe that's where the show plans to head with Jon.

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On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 10:16 PM, TheCasualObserver said:

Worse, because it means Cersei has to act as the stumbling block to Dany's conquest, which really doesn't make sense. It will never add up to me how Cersei could wield any power at all after season 6, considering that she has been literally stripped of her dignity, wiped out the most important religous building in the western world, murdered her own allies and uncle and oversaw her own son's suicide. (Not technically her fault, but I don't see why others wouldn't think she'd just gone bezerk and killed Tommen.) You also have to deal with Randyll Tarly, a blatant and aggressive misogynist, breaking from his liege lord to help Cersei, a woman who is basically an evil cartoon of a "crazy woman."

Plus, teleporting armies, one sided battles and no one ever scouting anything. How many times can the writers pull the same "army from nowhere" routine? Blackwater, Castle black, Hardhome, first battle of winterfell, Dany getting captured, battle for Mereen, second battle for winterfell, Euron hitting the Sand snake fleet, Euron hitting the unsullied, Jaime hitting Highgarden...

 

  Hide contents

And now the dothraki sneaking up on Jaime

 

It's just getting ridiculous.  

You do realise that Cersei will be Queen in the books too right?  And as her prophecy is one more beautiful will cast her down, which is almost certainly Dany, that means it won't be Aegon that dislodges her.

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On ‎04‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 6:26 PM, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Thoughts?

Better.  Whilst GRRM clearly planned for it way in the past (ACOK at least), it is a poor idea to introduce the character so advanced in the story and it's just another plot device for men to fight each other so that the realm is weakened further before the Others arrive and all seems hopeless.

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On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 6:37 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't think it as bad that GRRM introduced him so late in the books as he did, as there is a larger opportunity to explain these things and give the back story in the books.

Unless Aegon was brought in a lot earlier in the show, one of the earlier seasons, it wouldn't have worked. If he just suddenly appeared in season 5 or that, there would be so much explaining to do it would just become total exposition and ridiculous.

The fact they didn't add him into the show suggests he isn't going to last long in the books. I got the same impression when they killed off Stannis in the show. Which was disappointing as Stannis and Aegon are two of my favourite characters.

 

The biggest mistake GRRM made with the introduction is that we got so much detail on him.  It would have been far more shocking to have him literally turn up in Westeros as hearsay via existing Westeros POV's and it would have cut down on a few dull chapters in ADWD.

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Posted (edited)

Far worse without him and yet they are introducing the Golden Company anyway. Dorne was a failure with the alteration too. Varys is useless and Illyrio, the architect of the Dany/Drogo marriage and the REAL reason behind it, are lost as well.

Funny. If Varys cared about the people and that the Dothraki would not be good for them, then, on this show, why did he seemingly want Viserys to have the Dothraki army to invade Westeros? The absence of Aegon/young Griff throws so much out of balance.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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Posted (edited)

Cutting Griff was one of the smartest changes D&D has ever made on the show. he is just a pointless plot device in order to give Dany some kind of trouble during her journey 

I did not care for him at all

 

now don't get me wrong there are definitely characters in the books that wish was in the show but Griff is not one of them 

at no point watching season 7 did I ever think to myself i wish they added a bratty teen who suddenly comes in and takes away screen time from characters I actually care about lol

 

I love martin but introducing A major character in the fifth book was one of his few big missteps and Im glad the tv show avoided making his same mistake

 

Edited by Rex999

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Better. Don't care about him in the books, definitely wouldn't care about him in the show. If he was important he would've made it in.

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11 hours ago, Rex999 said:

 

at no point watching season 7 did I ever think to myself i wish they added a bratty teen who suddenly comes in and takes away screen time from characters I actually care about lol

 

So when you are watching Cersei, a Queen who committed mass homicide in a holy sept, somehow be able to retain the support of the 'smallfolk', you don't ever wonder if it would make a smidgen more sense if a young noble Prince like Aegon coming to take her down and take the Iron Throne much to the joy of the 'smallfolk' would make a lot more sense?

Not to mention how much more interesting it would make Daenerys' Conquest when she ends up having to try take the Iron Throne from a just and well loved King like Aegon, who might be her nephew, as opposed to one that should be hated like Cersei.

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They did include young Griff/Aegon. And they also included Arianne. 

Daenerys arc this season is half (less?) hers from the books, but a large portion is Aegon's from the end of ADWD. This includes the "romance" with Arianne, played by Jon for the most part this season. Including the "romance" that is destined to fail.

Read the Arianne 2 TWOW chapter and you will see just how much Jon is she, and that includes the cave scene and finding CotF imagery. 

So, I don't think the show is going to introduce Aegon in person because show Dany is playing his part this season. 

I am sure that by either the end of this season, or by the end of ep1 in season 8, Jon will take on his northern self again as Dany will be back to "normal". 

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They are definitely worse off without Aegon.

I mean, just take the Dany-Jon relationship right now. Jon has two potential allies at this point. Dany and ... Cersei. Who he is going to pick? That isn't even a question. There is zero tension in that question. Absolutely zero. Even if they were not falling in love it would still be clear that Jon is not going to work with the woman his family fought against through the entire series.

Now, but what if it was Aegon on the Iron Throne when Dany arrived, and not Cersei? What then?

If we look at the books it is not that unlikely that Aegon will take the Iron Throne in TWoW, and sooner rather than later. That should send massive ripple effects through Westeros.

Jon had little to no reason to make common cause with either the Boltons or King Tommen/the Lannisters in general. But Aegon is an outsider, a new player, a man he has no issues with.

Assuming Stannis is dead by that time, Jon could have reached an understanding with Aegon and his followers by the time Dany arrives, getting food, supplies, and men shipped up to Eastwatch. A working relationship that may or may not included Jon Snow's formal recognition of King Aegon VI Targaryen (although there would basically not problem in doing that - Aegon is not going to come up north next month to check whether everything is in order up there) which is then disrupted and endangered by this Second Dance that is going to begin with Dany's arrival in Westeros.

While the North is not likely going to play a part in the Second Dance the war itself would cripple everyone's efforts to man the Wall.

That fact in and of itself could have potential for conflict between Daenerys and Jon. Even if Dany wants to come to aid of everyone it is going to be difficult for her if Aegon doesn't let her and she first has to conquer Westeros.

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On 8/6/2017 at 6:15 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The biggest mistake GRRM made with the introduction is that we got so much detail on him.  It would have been far more shocking to have him literally turn up in Westeros as hearsay via existing Westeros POV's and it would have cut down on a few dull chapters in ADWD.

So many posters have had comments I agree with, but I couldn't quote them all.  Great discussion.  As it pertains to the books, I think Aegon conceptually was a good idea but executed poorly.  Or rather, introducing significant characters along the way was a good idea, but Aegon (another secret or non secret Targ, really?) and the way he was introduced was poor.

Here is my problem with the books and show - ever since the red wedding there haven't been enough "day one" character deaths.  The plot armor is too thick.  If Jon Snow actually had stayed dead at the end of ADWD it would really be a much better story to me.  Right now the plot armor is too thick for many characters.  It makes the story too predictable in both the show and the books.  New major characters have to keep getting introduced so that we can get rid of old ones.  Davos, Ramsay, and Oberyn were all very successfully introduced after AGOT/S1 - all as acquantances of more important people we had already heard a lot about if not seen yet.

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I agree with those who said the absence of Aegon makes Cersei's alliances unbelievable. But I also agree that introducing him and keeping the whole Jon Targ thing as a shocker would be difficult. The show doesn't tell much about the history of Westeros, esp. in the last few seasons. But in the books we have a lot mentions of Targaryans, Blackfyre rebellions etc. so another real or fake Targ doesn't seem out of nowhere for the audience.

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20 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree with those who said the absence of Aegon makes Cersei's alliances unbelievable. But I also agree that introducing him and keeping the whole Jon Targ thing as a shocker would be difficult. The show doesn't tell much about the history of Westeros, esp. in the last few seasons. But in the books we have a lot mentions of Targaryans, Blackfyre rebellions etc. so another real or fake Targ doesn't seem out of nowhere for the audience.

They could have done it if they had properly prepared for it. It is not that they don't have enough screen time or anything. They could have simplified it somewhat. The gist of it is that a promising young man with the right looks and name to claim the Iron Throne. If they had established - as George does - that half of the Realm or more really longs for the return of the dragons (especially in the wake of the constant civil wars) it could have worked as nicely as it will in the books.

Who on earth Aegon actually is and all that back story could have been simplified. Just make Illyrio and Varys some Targaryen cousins through a younger son (or even a bastard) who ended in disgrace and exile. The whole Blackfyre thing wouldn't be needed for that.

The sad thing now is that this Dany-Cersei battle is basically completely predictable and boring. It is clear that Cersei won't prevail. And we sure as hell don't cheer for her.

Properly executed the Aegon story could have had a lot of tragic potential. Just as it should have in the books. Just as Stannis' story has, actually, if executed properly.

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I think it's fine. I think George was off his rocker to bring Young Griff into the books in the first place.

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I thought and still feel it is worse but they may still go there although it is late.

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