Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

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The great joy of this season is that they are concentrating on far fewer characters. We have Euron in the mix now. we don't need Griff - there is more than enough to be getting on with in the limited time left. George's massive mistakes in the books was introducing new characters and opening up new storylines to an already creaking saga when he should have been bringing it all together. And now he can't finish them (I'm 99% sure we won't be seeing the end of the story in print, at least by him).

 

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They could have done it if they had properly prepared for it. It is not that they don't have enough screen time or anything. They could have simplified it somewhat. The gist of it is that a promising young man with the right looks and name to claim the Iron Throne. If they had established - as George does - that half of the Realm or more really longs for the return of the dragons (especially in the wake of the constant civil wars) it could have worked as nicely as it will in the books.

Who on earth Aegon actually is and all that back story could have been simplified. Just make Illyrio and Varys some Targaryen cousins through a younger son (or even a bastard) who ended in disgrace and exile. The whole Blackfyre thing wouldn't be needed for that.

The sad thing now is that this Dany-Cersei battle is basically completely predictable and boring. It is clear that Cersei won't prevail. And we sure as hell don't cheer for her.

Properly executed the Aegon story could have had a lot of tragic potential. Just as it should have in the books. Just as Stannis' story has, actually, if executed properly.

There is no reason they couldn't have introduced Young Griff at the start of season 5, say, and built him up from there. People who watch the show were willing enough to accept Jon Snow's Targaryen heritage quickly enough that I am sure they would be able to accept the idea that one of Rhaegar's "true" children survived.

The Cersei-Dany battle is boring because not only do we know that Dany will win, we know that no person in their right mind would want Cersei to win in the first place. The fact she isn't facing an open rebellion from the small folk after she committed mass homicide in the Sept is ludicrous enough. The idea of Aegon is that he has been coached to rule the proper way through the help of Varys and Jon Connington. And it is very likely he will get the throne.

The idea of him coming later in the story but still getting to Westeros and saving King's Landing from Cersei sets him up for a far greater rival for Dany than Cersei is, due to the fact Dany would then be trying to take the Iron Throne from her own relative with a better claim to the throne than her and who is also seen as a saviour of the realm for freeing it of the Lannisters It would put Dany in a poor position if she was to win the Second Dance, having taking the throne from a much loved King. She would be no more than just another Usurper. Essentially she would have to try to convince the people to turn to love her, maybe even causing her to advocate the throne she tried so hard to win when she realises they don't want her.

Aegon would have been important for other characters, too, like Varys, who would actually have a point in the story. At the moment, he is nothing more than a man that walks around Dragonstone at Daenerys' tale, like a prop in the background.

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26 minutes ago, Daske said:

George's massive mistakes in the books was introducing new characters and opening up new storylines to an already creaking saga when he should have been bringing it all together. And now he can't finish them (I'm 99% sure we won't be seeing the end of the story in print, at least by him).

 

I disagree. I think one of the strengths of his writing is the incredible scope and vision he has. Each character he has introduced, even late on in the story, has had a point and a part to play. It would be entirely different if he was making them up without a purpose. But characters like Aegon, Euron etc have more than improved an already brilliant piece of work.

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On 8/4/2017 at 10:26 AM, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Thoughts?

It's probably better. I feel like there was a lot of "Act II" that GRRM locked himself into when he wrote the HotU prophecy. I don't mind reading all that in the context of a series of novels, but TV shows always go downhill after 5 years or so. Actors get bored (or get way too old for their roles) audiences move on, networks start wanted to reel in the budget at the same time the cast starts wanting a raise, and production values suffer. You can't plan on a 10-year-show, the best you can do is shoot for 5 and hope you get a bit more. 7 seasons (let's be honest, 7 and 8 are a single season being split in two) is a great run.

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2 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

There is no reason they couldn't have introduced Young Griff at the start of season 5, say, and built him up from there. People who watch the show were willing enough to accept Jon Snow's Targaryen heritage quickly enough that I am sure they would be able to accept the idea that one of Rhaegar's "true" children survived.

The Cersei-Dany battle is boring because not only do we know that Dany will win, we know that no person in their right mind would want Cersei to win in the first place. The fact she isn't facing an open rebellion from the small folk after she committed mass homicide in the Sept is ludicrous enough. The idea of Aegon is that he has been coached to rule the proper way through the help of Varys and Jon Connington. And it is very likely he will get the throne.

The idea of him coming later in the story but still getting to Westeros and saving King's Landing from Cersei sets him up for a far greater rival for Dany than Cersei is, due to the fact Dany would then be trying to take the Iron Throne from her own relative with a better claim to the throne than her and who is also seen as a saviour of the realm for freeing it of the Lannisters It would put Dany in a poor position if she was to win the Second Dance, having taking the throne from a much loved King. She would be no more than just another Usurper. Essentially she would have to try to convince the people to turn to love her, maybe even causing her to advocate the throne she tried so hard to win when she realises they don't want her.

Aegon would have been important for other characters, too, like Varys, who would actually have a point in the story. At the moment, he is nothing more than a man that walks around Dragonstone at Daenerys' tale, like a prop in the background.

Pretty much that. The beauty of the Aegon story is that it makes up for a really great tragedy. You read the books and hope for some kind of easy revenge plot, expecting Dany to come in and deal with the Lannisters, Freys, Boltons, etc. and then it turns out that they will get themselves killed (more or less) all by themselves and with the help of this new Targaryen prince. And events and circumstances will then put him against Dany, making her conquest not only much more difficult but also morally more problematic.

When reading all that we most likely will find each other shouting at the pages for the inability and unwillingness of certain people to try to make peace while there is still time.

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5 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

There is no reason they couldn't have introduced Young Griff at the start of season 5, say, and built him up from there. People who watch the show were willing enough to accept Jon Snow's Targaryen heritage quickly enough that I am sure they would be able to accept the idea that one of Rhaegar's "true" children survived.

The Cersei-Dany battle is boring because not only do we know that Dany will win, we know that no person in their right mind would want Cersei to win in the first place. The fact she isn't facing an open rebellion from the small folk after she committed mass homicide in the Sept is ludicrous enough. The idea of Aegon is that he has been coached to rule the proper way through the help of Varys and Jon Connington. And it is very likely he will get the throne.

The idea of him coming later in the story but still getting to Westeros and saving King's Landing from Cersei sets him up for a far greater rival for Dany than Cersei is, due to the fact Dany would then be trying to take the Iron Throne from her own relative with a better claim to the throne than her and who is also seen as a saviour of the realm for freeing it of the Lannisters It would put Dany in a poor position if she was to win the Second Dance, having taking the throne from a much loved King. She would be no more than just another Usurper. Essentially she would have to try to convince the people to turn to love her, maybe even causing her to advocate the throne she tried so hard to win when she realises they don't want her.

Aegon would have been important for other characters, too, like Varys, who would actually have a point in the story. At the moment, he is nothing more than a man that walks around Dragonstone at Daenerys' tale, like a prop in the background.

You make a number of good points here. I still think Young Griff would be too much for the show just in terms of scope, but your reasoning is solid. In my opinion, to do it properly and not confuse the audience, you would have needed an additional season's worth of screen time, and while I'm sure HBO would have been down with that, D & D clearly want to move on. 

Regarding the Cersei - Dany conflict, I suspect they'll try to keep the dragons out of it and that will be what makes it kind of interesting. Or, possibly, Dany will go north first, leaving Cersei in the south to try and regroup and build more scorpions. 

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23 minutes ago, Pecan said:

You make a number of good points here. I still think Young Griff would be too much for the show just in terms of scope, but your reasoning is solid. In my opinion, to do it properly and not confuse the audience, you would have needed an additional season's worth of screen time, and while I'm sure HBO would have been down with that, D & D clearly want to move on. 

Regarding the Cersei - Dany conflict, I suspect they'll try to keep the dragons out of it and that will be what makes it kind of interesting. Or, possibly, Dany will go north first, leaving Cersei in the south to try and regroup and build more scorpions. 

Yeah, even if the last two seasons were ten episodes like usual it would still be a stretch to fit Aegon in, but I still believe it would have been worth it, especially when it comes to the story of Dany winning the throne. 

At the moment it is too obvious, too cliche almost. Cersei is a terrible Queen, Dany has the potential to be a great one. Good versus evil; hero versus villain for the Iron Throne. I just believe the idea of Dany coming up against another hero, another good guy in Aegon for the Iron throne would have been a much more interesting dynamic, especially if she won it and came to rule a realm that didn't want her. It just seems a foregone conclusion that Dany will rule and be an accepted ruler.

I think Cersei has to be dealt with before the WW. It's almost like Cersei is sort of the bad guy that isn't all that bad but needs to be taken out before they can focus on the true threat. But she could well go North with Jon first, especially if they end up getting together during the remainder of the season.

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Posted (edited)

maybe they could have combined the stories a little more, aegon could have survived but died later.
then when dany was interrogating varys about supporting her brother even though he knew what he was like he could of said “no there was another but he's dead now, he had supporters they may follow you”. then varys could go root out these people instead of hanging round drgonstone doing nothing. 

Edited by reddragonfly

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5 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

There is no reason they couldn't have introduced Young Griff at the start of season 5, say, and built him up from there. People who watch the show were willing enough to accept Jon Snow's Targaryen heritage quickly enough that I am sure they would be able to accept the idea that one of Rhaegar's "true" children survived.

The Cersei-Dany battle is boring because not only do we know that Dany will win, we know that no person in their right mind would want Cersei to win in the first place. The fact she isn't facing an open rebellion from the small folk after she committed mass homicide in the Sept is ludicrous enough. The idea of Aegon is that he has been coached to rule the proper way through the help of Varys and Jon Connington. And it is very likely he will get the throne.

The idea of him coming later in the story but still getting to Westeros and saving King's Landing from Cersei sets him up for a far greater rival for Dany than Cersei is, due to the fact Dany would then be trying to take the Iron Throne from her own relative with a better claim to the throne than her and who is also seen as a saviour of the realm for freeing it of the Lannisters It would put Dany in a poor position if she was to win the Second Dance, having taking the throne from a much loved King. She would be no more than just another Usurper. Essentially she would have to try to convince the people to turn to love her, maybe even causing her to advocate the throne she tried so hard to win when she realises they don't want her.

Aegon would have been important for other characters, too, like Varys, who would actually have a point in the story. At the moment, he is nothing more than a man that walks around Dragonstone at Daenerys' tale, like a prop in the background.

I have to disagree. As boring as Cersei vs Dany is, I don't think Aegon would've worked in the show, especially being introduced so late in the game. And it's not just about when he comes into play: his character is incredibly convoluted. Like, if you make him the real Aegon, that creates dozens of plot holes and is pure soap opera. And if you make him fake is even more of a mess, like "he's a Targaryen. No, wait, he's a Blackfyre. Now stay tuned for this mountain of backstory." 

That's why I think it would've been better to have Edric Storm as an Aegon stand-in, to keep most of the same beats.

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Not including Young Griff has made the show much worse. It has made Varys' plotline completely stupid and now pointless. On top of that, it has made Dany/Cersei's plotline not as believable. The Lannister army was pretty decimated by Season 5, and then Cersei blows up the Sept and a good chunk of the cit. And we are supposed to believe that not only do the people follow her but actually love her? Cersei's presence on the show at this point is only the second dumbest prolonging of a character behind Littlefinger. By forcing the audience to think Cersei would actually be formidable and well liked, it makes Dany's role in things worse as well. If a charismatic, actually believable, well-liked ruler (Young Griff) was on the throne, it would make Dany's dilemma and storyline much more interesting.

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3 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Not including Young Griff has made the show much worse. It has made Varys' plotline completely stupid and now pointless. On top of that, it has made Dany/Cersei's plotline not as believable. The Lannister army was pretty decimated by Season 5, and then Cersei blows up the Sept and a good chunk of the cit. And we are supposed to believe that not only do the people follow her but actually love her? Cersei's presence on the show at this point is only the second dumbest prolonging of a character behind Littlefinger. By forcing the audience to think Cersei would actually be formidable and well liked, it makes Dany's role in things worse as well. If a charismatic, actually believable, well-liked ruler (Young Griff) was on the throne, it would make Dany's dilemma and storyline much more interesting.

This is one hundred percent what I have been saying.

Cersei should not have that throne, not a chance. She has done much worse in her short spell as queen than even Aerys got to do in his entire reign. The 'smallfolk' should be up and arms and she should be facing open rebellion nigh on everyday. Instead she is sat on the throne, happy as Larry, with only Daenerys causing her any kind of unease.

Aegon should have been the one who wiped Cersei out of the Iron Throne. He would come in as a Targaryen heir who was able to rid the realm of an evil and wicked ruler. The fact he would have got there quicker and had the job done long before Daenerys even got to Dragonstone immediately makes Daenerys' conquest more interesting. She'd have realised she'd sat around wasting time in Meereen while Aegon was doing what she should have been doing the whole time, heading straight for Westeros.

The Dany vs Cersei plot is too predictable. Dany will win. We all want her to win. Dany vs Aegon would be something completely different. Some of us would want her to win, some of us would want Aegon. Even if, deep down, we knew Dany would win, it's still better having the conflict of perhaps rooting for someone else, because the whole of the realm would be behind King Aegon and Dany would be no more than another Usurper, who took the Iron Throne from a young King who had saved the realm from Cersei Lannister.

And, of course, Varys, one of the most interesting characters in the story, would definitely not be reduced to a simple follower as he currently is in season 7.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

This is one hundred percent what I have been saying.

Cersei should not have that throne, not a chance. She has done much worse in her short spell as queen than even Aerys got to do in his entire reign. The 'smallfolk' should be up and arms and she should be facing open rebellion nigh on everyday. Instead she is sat on the throne, happy as Larry, with only Daenerys causing her any kind of unease.

Aegon should have been the one who wiped Cersei out of the Iron Throne. He would come in as a Targaryen heir who was able to rid the realm of an evil and wicked ruler. The fact he would have got there quicker and had the job done long before Daenerys even got to Dragonstone immediately makes Daenerys' conquest more interesting. She'd have realised she'd sat around wasting time in Meereen while Aegon was doing what she should have been doing the whole time, heading straight for Westeros.

The Dany vs Cersei plot is too predictable. Dany will win. We all want her to win. Dany vs Aegon would be something completely different. Some of us would want her to win, some of us would want Aegon. Even if, deep down, we knew Dany would win, it's still better having the conflict of perhaps rooting for someone else, because the whole of the realm would be behind King Aegon and Dany would be no more than another Usurper, who took the Iron Throne from a young King who had saved the realm from Cersei Lannister.

And, of course, Varys, one of the most interesting characters in the story, would definitely not be reduced to a simple follower as he currently is in season 7.

Yep. Back in season 2, the city went into a quasi-rebellion against Joffrey and started to attack him pretty much because they believed he was not legit and a product of incest. Now we have Cersei. Also not a legit ruler. She partakes in incest and creates products of incest. On top of that, she has not much of an army or allies to defend her and the city, and she is even crueler than Joffrey. When most of the city follows the Faith of the Seven, and she blows up their highest place of worship and highest leader, I would think most people be a little pissed off. That would be like all Catholics feverishly following Trump after he decided to blow up St. Peter's Basillica and kill the pope in the process. So they hated Joffrey, but somehow we are to believe they love Cersei?

If they can introduce Euron late in the game and make him formidable, they could have introduced Griff back in Season 5 and had him take the throne by the end of season 6. It's not like this show cares about timelines or how quickly it takes armies to get places. Hell, Tyrion could have met him in the first couple episodes in season 5, and then by the end of season 5, Griff lands in Westeros. By the end of season 6, he takes King's Landing. Season 7, Dany fights him. Season 8 Dany fights the White Walkers.

Instead we get this cluster fuck of a plotline where we have to pretend like Cersei should be on the throne.

Edited by SuperMario

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I try to give D&D the benefit of the doubt most of the time, because I don't want to constantly be negative towards the show or always criticise it, as adapting such a large piece of written work is a very difficult task. Since they ran out of source material, the writing of the show definitely has got worse, but again, I try my best not to bang on about it, either. But this is the one issue I have with the show, above all else, that I can't shake off. Cersei just cannot have that throne and have peace from her smallfolk, it is literally impossible for the writers to justify that given the abuse Joffrey got for being believed to have been born of incest.

One thing that people loved about the show - particularly people that I have know personally who haven't read the books - is that anyone can be killed off at anytime. But it is quite clear, as time has gone on, the writers have their favourite actors and actresses and Lena Headey is certainly one of them. They are trying to drag Cersei's presence out on the show as long as they can, just because they clearly love the actress. They are letting their own personal preferences get ahead of logic when it comes to developing the story, especially with Cersei.

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Not worse for the show overall but definitely for some characters. The character Aegon himself is not absolutely necessary to the overall plot on his own, but -like some already stated above- his absence leads to some character's storylines being inconsistent or maybe even obsolete (Cersei/ Varys).

The moment it is stated in the books that baby Aegon's head was bashed into a unrecognizable pulp, GRRM left an opening there for a twist, for him to 'return'. So I don't think it was a complete asspull by GRRM to introduce him late in the game. I mean, talking about the show, the introduction of Euron was as much or even more of an asspull than Aegon's could have possibly been.

I think for Aegon/Griff to have worked in the show, they would have had to introduce him in season 5 but not as a red herring, before Jon's parentage reveal, which in turn would then probably be a bit later in the show. I don't think it would have been a terrible thing for the show to have:

-an established Targaryen protagonist (Dany)

-a Targaryen pretender (Griff, in this case the audience must be aware of this or be able to puzzle this one out fairly quickly somehow, the character himself not so much)

-a hidden Targaryen (Jon, built up by subtle clues to the point of reveal)

This will of course eliminate the possibility of any more hidden Targaryens, which in the current show seems to be case anyways at this point.

That all being said, there are other factors in play that can't be ignored. This is why I think it was almost inevitable that he was omitted, and that it was ultimately for the better choice overall. The real problem lies with the fact that all the storylines must more or less move at a similar pace in order to not lose momentum. The stretching of the seasons necessary for Aegon to work simply doesn't match with the whole Night King's storyline. They can't keep stalling the WW for much longer, let's say a season or two more and let them wait until the political squabbles are over. That would be anticlimactic.

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It really is the Cersei plot that is so crappy. It is not completely impossible that Cersei could lay claim to the Iron Throne in the books - she is the dowager queen and as widow of King Robert she could have a claim in the absence of any other claimant (or only some obscure half-peasant Targaryen cousin claimant) after Tommen's death.

However, if she did that she would have essentially most of the Realm against her. Westeros doesn't like to be ruled by a woman. Especially not one without dragons or the Targaryen name. Cersei Lannister is not Rhaenyra Targaryen. And even Rhaenyra Targaryen failed in the end.

And, of course, her own capital would not follow her in light of her recent walk of shame. This character could never pull that off, especially not if she actually blew up the Great Sept. She wouldn't be the Half-Year-Queen (as Rhaenyra is known) but rather 'Queen for half a day' or 'Queen for a fortnight'.

If they did not want to take the Aegon plot why not give Aegon's role sort of to Tommen? Have Tommen develop into a capable ruler somehow. They could have done that when they aged him up and introduced the new actor. Instead, they made him this pudding boy and dragged his plot on and and on and on.

We want Cersei to fail but a Tommen who finally put his scheming mother and wife back into place, dealing with the Faith, and taking control of the Realm with the intention to rule for the good of his own people could have set him up as an interesting opponent to Dany.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If they did not want to take the Aegon plot why not give Aegon's role sort of to Tommen? Have Tommen develop into a capable ruler somehow. They could have done that when they aged him up and introduced the new actor. Instead, they made him this pudding boy and dragged his plot on and and on and on.

We want Cersei to fail but a Tommen who finally put his scheming mother and wife back into place, dealing with the Faith, and taking control of the Realm with the intention to rule for the good of his own people could have set him up as an interesting opponent to Dany.

A few things come to mind in a sort of pseudo post-mortem kind of way. First, the writers had to come up with a way to just flat out reduce the scope of the books, which is why you see storylines eliminated, reduced, consolidated with other characters, etc. But, at the same time, they're doing so without the benefit of a completed work and they're also dealing with an author in GRRM that has said himself that he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen until he writes it. So there's a bit of a guessing game involved, and in this case, the way that turned out was to put Cersei on the throne. But that wasn't just a guess. It was also calculated, I believe, to keep Lena Headey on-screen because she is so fantastic. But, to go in a different direction and elevate Tommen as a character (which I think makes quite a lot of sense), that would no doubt require going way outside the lines of the projected future plot (because I'm sure George told them Tommen's fate) and it would also be a deliberate decision to kind of knock down Cersei's prominence as a character, which again, from the perspective of a TV producer, that's a tough thing to do when Lena Headey is so damn good. Don't kid yourself, even though Tywin Lannister's fate was sealed in the books, I guarantee you that there were people involved in the production arguing to keep Charles Dance on screen. 

Something else that occurs to me is that, if they were to go in that direction with Tommen, it would have been best to lay the groundwork several seasons ago. Instead, they sort of committed to the notion of a boy king that is more or less an innocent and completely out of his depth and dies a tragic death, which is probably what will happen in the books as well. 

And can I just proclaim once again that Lena Headey really is fantastic? Her character may not make a whole lot of sense at this point, but my gosh that is one heck of an actress right there.  

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The exclusion of (f)Aegon has affected too many plots negatively, but

Spoiler

I still think they're going to find a way to incorporate it into the plot via Jon now with the leaks claiming Jon's real name is Aegon and Varys is questioning his support of Varys.

 

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47 minutes ago, Pecan said:

A few things come to mind in a sort of pseudo post-mortem kind of way. First, the writers had to come up with a way to just flat out reduce the scope of the books, which is why you see storylines eliminated, reduced, consolidated with other characters, etc. But, at the same time, they're doing so without the benefit of a completed work and they're also dealing with an author in GRRM that has said himself that he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen until he writes it. So there's a bit of a guessing game involved, and in this case, the way that turned out was to put Cersei on the throne. But that wasn't just a guess. It was also calculated, I believe, to keep Lena Headey on-screen because she is so fantastic. But, to go in a different direction and elevate Tommen as a character (which I think makes quite a lot of sense), that would no doubt require going way outside the lines of the projected future plot (because I'm sure George told them Tommen's fate) and it would also be a deliberate decision to kind of knock down Cersei's prominence as a character, which again, from the perspective of a TV producer, that's a tough thing to do when Lena Headey is so damn good. Don't kid yourself, even though Tywin Lannister's fate was sealed in the books, I guarantee you that there were people involved in the production arguing to keep Charles Dance on screen. 

Something else that occurs to me is that, if they were to go in that direction with Tommen, it would have been best to lay the groundwork several seasons ago. Instead, they sort of committed to the notion of a boy king that is more or less an innocent and completely out of his depth and dies a tragic death, which is probably what will happen in the books as well. 

And can I just proclaim once again that Lena Headey really is fantastic? Her character may not make a whole lot of sense at this point, but my gosh that is one heck of an actress right there.  

Yes you may, she is! 

6 minutes ago, WolfOfWinter said:

The exclusion of (f)Aegon has affected too many plots negatively, but

  Reveal hidden contents

I still think they're going to find a way to incorporate it into the plot via Jon now with the leaks claiming Jon's real name is Aegon and Varys is questioning his support of Varys.

 

Can you elaborate on the hidden part? In a hidden way of course :P

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Worse. Much worse. Never cared for the guy but the story was written with him in mind and by cutting him off, the show has had to make too many illogical twists to the story. Dany has no opposition left so they have pasted the Aegon storyline on Cersei who even mentioned hiring the Golden Company. Thus, they have made everyone ok with Cersei, a woman, claiming the throne for herself. And everyone's cool with her blowing up the sept, too. And Jaime still loves her. Sure. So in the end they have Dany make all kind of silly choices and turned Euron into a supervillain so that Dany doesn't have it too easy.

 

Most importantly, we already know that Cersei will be killed by valonqar and a younger queen will take everything she holds dear. In other words, we already know Dany will beat her. Hard to get excited over this. Meanwhile the character progression of Jaime, Cersei and Varys has been ruined. Dany was ruined already in season 2 so nothing new in her case.

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:34 PM, Daske said:

The great joy of this season is that they are concentrating on far fewer characters.

 

It's sucking all the excitement out of the story, though. Few characters and many unfinished storylines. This was very evident in the dragon fight in episode 4 where the only disposable character was Bronn. Apart from Olenna and the Dornish women, the only other disposable character is Littlefinger. All the rest of the cast still have a story to tell. So in other words, we know they are safe until the next season.

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