Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

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On 10.8.2017 at 1:34 PM, Daske said:

The great joy of this season is that they are concentrating on far fewer characters. We have Euron in the mix now. we don't need Griff - there is more than enough to be getting on with in the limited time left. George's massive mistakes in the books was introducing new characters and opening up new storylines to an already creaking saga when he should have been bringing it all together. And now he can't finish them (I'm 99% sure we won't be seeing the end of the story in print, at least by him).

Concentrating on fewer characters would be a good thing if they still had some stories to tell. But they don't. We see that with the Winterfell plot this season - which is essentially about nothing. We know how it is going to turn out, and we know how it is going to be resolved. When they were still adapting George one did not see the outcome/twist coming. The Blackwater twist came as a surprise, just as the Red Wedding did. Now the Starks putting down Littlefinger for good and all is not going to come as a surprise.

The only real story they seem to have this season that makes some sense is the Dany-Jon thing. Anything else is just fan fiction/pointless.

In addition, they are really no longer really adapting George's books. They are good because of the dialogue. Instead, the show focuses a lot on silent scenes - stares, walks, views, etc. That is not going to help tell the story. Because, you know, the story is rather complex. Their reunion scenes are just crap. The Sansa-Jon scene last season had something to it. The others are just crap.

1 hour ago, MakeThemBurn said:

It's sucking all the excitement out of the story, though. Few characters and many unfinished storylines. This was very evident in the dragon fight in episode 4 where the only disposable character was Bronn. Apart from Olenna and the Dornish women, the only other disposable character is Littlefinger. All the rest of the cast still have a story to tell. So in other words, we know they are safe until the next season.

They should depose of Cersei this season. We know they won't, but it would have been the smart move. The Others are enough of a threat by themselves, and there could be interesting potential for some conflict (if you need that for six remaining episodes) among the good guys if they are not sure how to deal with them, etc.

But then, the whole Cersei plot is completely unbelievable both in light of the books but also within any show framework that is supposed to make sense. The people know Cersei has pretty much no claim to the throne and that she blew up the Great Sept, killing the Voice of the Seven on earth as well as the entire leadership of the Faith, House Tyrell, members of House Lannisters like Ser Kevan, and other important people.

The idea that this could be accepted by the lords of the Realm and/or the common people (of KL) is just insane. Even within in the framework of the show. I mean, even there the common men-at-arms and the like will have, for instance, be followers of the Seven, some of them being pretty pious. The Tyrell vassals should be pissed about the murder of the Tyrells. And most men of the Realm should not exactly cheer at the idea of a female Lannister monarch - a woman that actually confessed to be guilty of adultery and was punished for that by the Faith.

The show actually tries to sell the idea that all you need to do is to kill your open/declared enemies to claim power. But that's not everything, obviously. You also have to be somewhat popular and do nothing to create new enemies in the process of putting down your declared enemies. And Cersei did not exactly do that.

We see what the Red Wedding did to the reputation of the Freys and Boltons. It was the beginning of their end.

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I think the Tarly's swore allegiance to the Lannisters out of fear (I mean she blew up the sept of Baelor and still has an undead body guard that's a 7 foot tall brick shithouse), but also just the understanding that they could just depose of Olenna Tyrell and take the reach.  As far as Young Griff they could still theoretically shoehorn him in since the last season is supposed to have longer episodes.  They have to fill that time with something, and since I don't know how the story ends I don't know if the battle for the dawn is going to take up all of that, or even most of it.  It seems like a pretty straight forward battle, especially when they establish to the rest of the Westerosi people that the wights are in fact real but we'll see.  If something happens to Cersei that leaves a power vacuum in King's Landing, and I don't think Varys's questioning of Dany's fitness to run is necessarily just filler.  

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, YoungGriff89 said:

I think the Tarly's swore allegiance to the Lannisters out of fear (I mean she blew up the sept of Baelor and still has an undead body guard that's a 7 foot tall brick shithouse), but also just the understanding that they could just depose of Olenna Tyrell and take the reach.  As far as Young Griff they could still theoretically shoehorn him in since the last season is supposed to have longer episodes.  They have to fill that time with something, and since I don't know how the story ends I don't know if the battle for the dawn is going to take up all of that, or even most of it.  It seems like a pretty straight forward battle, especially when they establish to the rest of the Westerosi people that the wights are in fact real but we'll see.  If something happens to Cersei that leaves a power vacuum in King's Landing, and I don't think Varys's questioning of Dany's fitness to run is necessarily just filler.  

Oh, come on, this whole Tarly story doesn't make any sense. Cersei offended the Seven and killed Tarly's liege lord as well as the head of his religion. The Tyrells are a very powerful house in the show. There is no reason to believe anyone would accept Cersei's coup. Not even the Westermen would accept that considering that there should be quite a few pious people there, too.

The show treats people like puppets. As if they are just there to do whatever the lead characters tell them to do. But that's not how power works in the books. If you look like a tyrant you don't exactly enjoy a lot of support. Anyone blowing up the Great Sept and killing the High Septon and the Most Devout would be rippled to pieces by an angry mob.

Just Ramsay would never get away with the murder of his father in the books. Roose might die there, too. But if he does then this will mark the quick end of Ramsay, too. Nobody likes him. Lady Barbrey even hates him. If Roose is dead, the Ryswells and Dustins won't support Ramsay, perhaps even turn against him. And the same goes, of course, for the Manderlys, the Umbers, and the other Northmen. He could, perhaps, count on a core contingent of Bolton men but only if they did not believe he murdered his father. But those men would never be enough to defeat Stannis or defend him against the other Northmen. He would be quickly killed.

We see this kind of thing again and again in George's story - Argella Durrandon is handed over to the enemy when all hope is lost, Maegor the Cruel, Aegon II and Aerys II are abandoned/betrayed and killed by the own men when the war is lost, etc. Ramsay and Cersei would suffer similar fates in the books if they ever pulled off stunts like they do in the show.

As to the last season - I guess they'll draw out the War for the Dawn by playing with the betrayal concept. That's an element that could come in the books, too. After people butchered each other for so long many mean should still hunger for vengeance, and many who only understand the threat of the Others in theory might play the Cersei card of committing only half-heartedly to the alliance, abandoning/betraying the good guys in the hour of need.

The Others should press on down in the South and the final battle should be around the Gods Eye/Harrenhal, both because of Dany's Trident vision as well as the Isle of Faces (which is most likely only going to be book stuff).

One imagines there will be some attempt to take on the Others early on next season and it will go catastrophically wrong. And then they will be all fucked until they final battle turns the tide, most likely by as easy a means as killing the big bad.

But that's going to cost them.

Spoiler

The Night King as a dragonrider is not going to go down without killing at least one additional dragon and its rider. And that should be Jon. He is the guy with the sword. His dragon, Rhaegal, should kill itself destroying Viserion while Jon is going to deal with the Night King most likely getting himself killed in the process.

 

Edited by Lord Varys

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Posted (edited)

Not sure what the purpose of Stannis is in the books (if he dies in TWOW losing at Winterfell, what was the point of keeping him around? I always thought he could be ADOS material).  Anyway --- the show did a terrible job with Stannis and D&D were certainly no fans of the character they literally turned him into a villain and used him as filler in seasons 3,4, and 5.  They shouldn't have done that.  The show created problems by cutting important characters but also by under-utilizing characters they did cast in the show.

I think Stannis could have made an interesting stand-in for Aegon and opposition to Daenerys.   The rightful ruler, the Usurper's brother, finally claims the Throne.  Stannis and Dany are polar opposites and it would have been a lot more interesting for KitN Jon Snow to pick a side.

Edited by Zombies That Were Promised

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i honestly thought show Trystane was going to turn out to be Aegon

i figured thats why he looked ethnically different than the rest of the Martells, lighter skin and all

 

if they woulda just introduced Arriane instead of Ellaria, that too would of worked out well

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No way.  That was never going to happen.  Just wouldn't be compelling TV.  Will Dany choose the Dornish Prince or the handsome King in the North Jon Snow?  Tune in next time....

Going with Cersei was their best and only option IMO.  I don't think the southern conflict could have translated to the show, too many players and they weren't going to dramatically change the cast for the last few seasons.  It was time to shrink the story.  Which is why I propose Stannis as Cersei makes no sense.. at least he was in the show early on.

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Concentrating on fewer characters would be a good thing if they still had some stories to tell. But they don't. We see that with the Winterfell plot this season - which is essentially about nothing. We know how it is going to turn out, and we know how it is going to be resolved. When they were still adapting George one did not see the outcome/twist coming. The Blackwater twist came as a surprise, just as the Red Wedding did. Now the Starks putting down Littlefinger for good and all is not going to come as a surprise.

The only real story they seem to have this season that makes some sense is the Dany-Jon thing. Anything else is just fan fiction/pointless.

In addition, they are really no longer really adapting George's books. They are good because of the dialogue. Instead, the show focuses a lot on silent scenes - stares, walks, views, etc. That is not going to help tell the story. Because, you know, the story is rather complex. Their reunion scenes are just crap. The Sansa-Jon scene last season had something to it. The others are just crap.

I don't agree with any of that.

In particular I haven't noticed the long staring scenes you mention at all, except with Littlefinger, and that is a couple of seconds here and there. The views are to show off the stunning scenery. Nothing wrong with that at all. Some of those are breath-taking. and again are just a few seconds here or there to frame a  meeting or something. Don't see how that takes anything away from the scenes, rather it enhances them.

 

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2 hours ago, Daske said:

I don't agree with any of that.

In particular I haven't noticed the long staring scenes you mention at all, except with Littlefinger, and that is a couple of seconds here and there. The views are to show off the stunning scenery. Nothing wrong with that at all. Some of those are breath-taking. and again are just a few seconds here or there to frame a  meeting or something. Don't see how that takes anything away from the scenes, rather it enhances them.

But it doesn't tell a story. If I want good scenery I don't watch a fantasy TV show. Sure, the sets should look good, but long walks and stares and the like only make sense if they lend gravitas to story, tell part of the story, add to the atmosphere, etc.

But the scenes in the show don't do any of that. They are actually supposed to tell the story instead of proper dialogue scenes.

When we get dialogue it is usually very bad exposition (like Jon really not explaining what's going on in the North when he met Dany - mentioning 'the army of the dead' isn't an explanation), meta-jokes (stuff like the Meerenese Knot), word games (pretty much everything that moron Tyrion tells us for quite a few seasons), filler (talk between Sam-Gilly-Jorah, etc. this season) or dialogue where they quote themselves (Arya, Dany, Jon, etc. citing themselves/doing the same stuff they or other characters did before, e.g. the Unburnt 2.0, The King in the North 2.0, the meeting with Nymeria, etc.). All of that is more than ample evidence that the writes basically have given up and are unable to come up with anything new or ingenious. That tendency began when they had all that ridiculous chair-shuffling in the Small Council a couple of seasons ago. You can show conflicts and disagreements this way but it no proper replacement for actually acting out those conflicts, no replacement for actual exposition and storytelling. But they actually thought that would be enough.

George's story is a complex story mostly told in dialogue and conversation. Any adaptation of this story has to use dialogue, too. And they did that early on when they actually used George's dialogue. But now they no longer do.

Even those ridiculous dialogues between two people are diametrical to George's storytelling. Yes, there are some such scenes. But there are also a lot of ensemble scenes, especially in the council scenes or other scenes at court. Making it a pattern that certain characters like Varys-Littlefinger Tyrion-Cersei, etc. came together for some sort of conversationalist sparring match isn't exactly what happens in the books. Conversations there actually do have a point for the story.

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, come on, this whole Tarly story doesn't make any sense. Cersei offended the Seven and killed Tarly's liege lord as well as the head of his religion. The Tyrells are a very powerful house in the show. There is no reason to believe anyone would accept Cersei's coup. Not even the Westermen would accept that considering that there should be quite a few pious people there, too.

The show treats people like puppets. As if they are just there to do whatever the lead characters tell them to do. But that's not how power works in the books. If you look like a tyrant you don't exactly enjoy a lot of support. Anyone blowing up the Great Sept and killing the High Septon and the Most Devout would be rippled to pieces by an angry mob.

Just Ramsay would never get away with the murder of his father in the books. Roose might die there, too. But if he does then this will mark the quick end of Ramsay, too. Nobody likes him. Lady Barbrey even hates him. If Roose is dead, the Ryswells and Dustins won't support Ramsay, perhaps even turn against him. And the same goes, of course, for the Manderlys, the Umbers, and the other Northmen. He could, perhaps, count on a core contingent of Bolton men but only if they did not believe he murdered his father. But those men would never be enough to defeat Stannis or defend him against the other Northmen. He would be quickly killed.

We see this kind of thing again and again in George's story - Argella Durrandon is handed over to the enemy when all hope is lost, Maegor the Cruel, Aegon II and Aerys II are abandoned/betrayed and killed by the own men when the war is lost, etc. Ramsay and Cersei would suffer similar fates in the books if they ever pulled off stunts like they do in the show.

As to the last season - I guess they'll draw out the War for the Dawn by playing with the betrayal concept. That's an element that could come in the books, too. After people butchered each other for so long many mean should still hunger for vengeance, and many who only understand the threat of the Others in theory might play the Cersei card of committing only half-heartedly to the alliance, abandoning/betraying the good guys in the hour of need.

The Others should press on down in the South and the final battle should be around the Gods Eye/Harrenhal, both because of Dany's Trident vision as well as the Isle of Faces (which is most likely only going to be book stuff).

One imagines there will be some attempt to take on the Others early on next season and it will go catastrophically wrong. And then they will be all fucked until they final battle turns the tide, most likely by as easy a means as killing the big bad.

But that's going to cost them.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Night King as a dragonrider is not going to go down without killing at least one additional dragon and its rider. And that should be Jon. He is the guy with the sword. His dragon, Rhaegal, should kill itself destroying Viserion while Jon is going to deal with the Night King most likely getting himself killed in the process.

 

Just on the bolded part. This I think is my single biggest criticism of D&D (and that says quite something, considering that there are many other very strong reasons I dislike their work).

And by this I mean their underlying theme that no one has any principles or strongly held beliefs or causes whatsoever. Instead, every lord is simply out to promote his own survival and power by whatever means necessary. If that means the Umbers just deliver Rickon to the Boltons, then so be it. If that means that the Glovers and most of the other Northern lords just abandon the Starks when the going gets tough, then so be it.

If it means even the most devout lords just look the other way when Cersei blows up the holiest place of their entire religion, then oh well, all's hunky dory. And if it means the Tarlys just betray their liege lords because Cersei offered them a better deal, then that's fine too.

Basically, everyone is Bronn. His personality defines the average lord in Westeros. There is no place for the Bronze Yohn Royces, Greatjon Umbers, Robett Glovers, Blackfishes, Barristan Selmys, Vances, Pipers and the like from the books. They are either portrayed as naive fools who die off early, or as romantic idealists who die honorably (Selmy), or they just become turncloacks after putting up some cursory resistance (Tarly). There is no enduring place for them in this Show. Nope, in D&D's world, the Littlefingers, Boltons and Freys are the norm. And Bronn is the ultimate representative of humanity.

And frankly, it just sucks.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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48 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on the bolded part. This I think is my single biggest criticism of D&D (and that says quite something, considering that there are many other very strong reasons I dislike their work).

And by this I mean their underlying theme that no one has any principles or strongly held beliefs or causes whatsoever. Instead, every lord is simply out to promote his own survival and power by whatever means necessary. If that means the Umbers just deliver Rickon to the Boltons, then so be it. If that means that the Glovers and most of the other Northern lords just abandon the Starks when the going gets tough, then so be it.

If it means even the most devout lords just look the other way when Cersei blows up the holiest place of their entire religion, then oh well, all's hunky dory. And if it means the Tarlys just betray their liege lords because Cersei offered them a better deal, then that's fine too.

Basically, everyone is Bronn. His personality defines the average lord in Westeros. There is no place for the Bronze Yohn Royces, Greatjon Umbers, Robett Glovers, Blackfishes, Barristan Selmys, Vances, Pipers and the like from the books. They are either portrayed as naive fools who die off early, or as romantic idealists who die honorably (Selmy), or they just become turncloacks after putting up some cursory resistance (Tarly). There is no enduring place for them in this Show. Nope, in D&D's world, the Littlefingers, Boltons and Freys are the norm. And Bronn is the ultimate representative of humanity.

And frankly, it just sucks.

Exactly.

Although I must say I find the whole Ramsay plot more disgusting and unbelievable (the way he kills Roose and gets away with that, apparently even getting stronger in the process of that by winning the allegiance of the Umbers, etc.) than the Cersei thing because Ramsay's depravity and the non-existing popularity of the Boltons in the North (thanks to the Red Wedding) is so much more obvious in the show than the relationship between the Faith and the various lords in the South or the relationship between the Tyrells and the many bannermen they must have.

If Roose dies in the books - never mind if he is killed by Ramsay or somebody else - it will be the beginning of the quick and certain end of House Bolton. Very few of the men at Winterfell right now would be willing to fight and die for Ramsay, and quite a few of them would actually gladly turn against him. Lady Barbrey openly despises him. And if he were to kill her, too, the Ryswells and Dustins would not suddenly declare for him.

And now Jeyne is not longer there they don't even have the pretense of representing 'House Stark'.

In that sense, it is quite clear that George cannot even remotely tell the same Northern story in the books as they told in the show. It would go against the rules/setting of the very world he created. He cannot just dumb down everyone and have them react against their interests for plot reasons. Especially not since Roose actually made it clear to Theon and the reader that Ramsay does not really have any men who are loyal first and foremost to him. The men around him are all men of his father. And even if he corrupted a couple of them to help him murder Roose then the others would exactly fall in line after that. Patricide is a monstrous crime by the standards of Westeros.

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Much and much of all this boils down to two things: length of the series and budget.

I think they screwed up on both. As we can all see with not even a little difficulty, there is much more material for more seasons. Dorne alone would have been several episodes worth (obviously spread around). Jaime - God they screwed him out of his whole arc etc. There is no rational realistic reason storywise to not have the last 4 seasons 5, 6,7 and 8 to be six or seven full seasons. Storywise. Don't know if they would have kept the audience - I think they would have, but who knows.

But, the real reason is that they employed the actors in the beginning for set amount of years - I think it was six, correct me if I am wrong. Quite a few of them will have been bargains. Do you think Emilia Clarke is going to be a bargain now, despite what you think of her acting? She has a name, A BIG NAME, and in the last two episodes they have actually got her makeup etc. back in line and she looks hot like seven suns. I wonder what they paid Williams and Turner, but the word "pittance" comes to mind.

Now they need to pay them for real, as well as they would have had to cast even more people for fAegon and his troupe etc. Man, I had such great ideas of who would play Arianne. OMG such great ideas, the dirty old man that I am.. :D:D

Anyway. Money lead to speeding up unnecessarily and now they are just cutting corners towards the end. I have given up and I will just enjoy the show. And I won't complain too much of the potholes etc. as long as we get stuff like the end of s7ep4.

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I agree. The show is more popular than ever, just when its coming to an end.  And it's only doing that because a) budget and b. D&D are tired and don't wanna hand it over.

I never expected everyone to make it in the show, every Tyrell, Greyjoy, Dornish, Meereeneese, Northern Lord, Vale Lord, Aegon's troupe, misc Essos characters, Oldtown, Riverlands, etc.  But there was so much potential with the characters they DID add in the show.  Just look at the Stark children reunion last week - underwhelming because of underwhelming dialogue.

I'd have sacrificed every million dollar battle scene for more tightly woven dialogue and story.  After all, it wasn't the spectacle of GoT that made the show more popular - it was the political knife-cutting twists and heelturns that defined even the show.  Stuff like Arianne's crown plot and The North Remembers (For real) should have made it in the show.

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I don't think money is the issue. HBO would have been happy to extend the show even further. It's D & D that want to wrap things up.

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Basically, GOT has become —to me, at least— just two entirely different series. Indeed, the first one is an adaptation of GRRM's work, with its (necessay or not) deviations from the original source. But, still, the dialogues or situations were there for D&D to take or leave.

The second TV series, that is, after they ran out of source material, is mere fanfiction. That is, no dialogues to borrow from, rehashed conflicts with characters whose arc had been exhausted (or killing off others who still had something to say). Actually, D&D managed to turn to ashes two of my favourite character developments: Jaime's and Cersei's.

George, please, we need you!

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I think Griff's inclusion would have positives and negatives.

If done the way GRRM did, intended for a rich novel that can have background naturally flow with the story it wouldn't have worked so well, if kept in the current way GOT has been structured it would seem out of place and a bit clunky and let's face it there would be some dumbing down of the details.

However if they introduced him earlier on, even mentioning him and in a small council meeting or in Essos in season 1 then brief scenes (like 20-30 minutes per season) building on his character/journeys/etc in season 2 and 3, with a narrative of having 2 Targs vying for the throne from early on but with 1 being a background mysterious character that we don't see much of but the legend is built until we get to seasons 4/5/6 when he starts playing a major role.

as @Gendry_Goldeneyes said earlier it would also give a chance to have Arianne in the show with more focus and development on Dorne. Dorne could be included earlier too and have a cohesive story that makes sense instead of the just for kicks inclusion we got.

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On 12/8/2017 at 2:45 AM, Eddard Scissorhands said:

Yes you may, she is! 

Can you elaborate on the hidden part? In a hidden way of course :P

Sure. I think Varys' monologue in episode two is setting up a future betrayal on his part (not a spoiler, just speculation) and that news of Jon being Rhaegar's son is what will cause Varys to jump ship, so Jon could possibly end up with some of Aegon's story. 

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1 hour ago, WolfOfWinter said:

Sure. I think Varys' monologue in episode two is setting up a future betrayal on his part (not a spoiler, just speculation) and that news of Jon being Rhaegar's son is what will cause Varys to jump ship, so Jon could possibly end up with some of Aegon's story. 

Ok, I understand now. But if Jon and Dany hook up and join forces, it's a win win for Varys and no need to jump ship. Unless you mean the dance of dragons will be between Jon and Dany and not in a good way.

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24 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

Ok, I understand now. But if Jon and Dany hook up and join forces, it's a win win for Varys and no need to jump ship. Unless you mean the dance of dragons will be between Jon and Dany and not in a good way.

With the latest episode establishing that

Spoiler

Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, Dany burning Jon's best friend's family alive, Varys and Tyrion having to convince themselves that Dany isn't a tyrant,

R+L=J being dragged out across two seasons,

Spoiler

and the North being willing to make Sansa their Queen because of Jon's relations with Dany and co.

 

, I think a Jon vs. Dany or The North vs. Dany conflict is inevitable. Jon and Dany will definitely hook up, but I think people are living in fanfic land if they believe these two will have a happy ending. 

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38 minutes ago, WolfOfWinter said:

With the latest episode establishing that

  Reveal hidden contents

Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, Dany burning Jon's best friend's family alive, Varys and Tyrion having to convince themselves that Dany isn't a tyrant,

R+L=J being dragged out across two seasons,

  Reveal hidden contents

and the North being willing to make Sansa their Queen because of Jon's relations with Dany and co.

 

, I think a Jon vs. Dany or The North vs. Dany conflict is inevitable. Jon and Dany will definitely hook up, but I think people are living in fanfic land if they believe these two will have a happy ending. 

Didn't watch yet. But about the last part. That would be way more interesting than fanfic land version indeed, and I hope it happens.

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On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 1:59 PM, MakeThemBurn said:

It's sucking all the excitement out of the story, though. Few characters and many unfinished storylines. This was very evident in the dragon fight in episode 4 where the only disposable character was Bronn. Apart from Olenna and the Dornish women, the only other disposable character is Littlefinger. All the rest of the cast still have a story to tell. So in other words, we know they are safe until the next season.

I don't think so. Things change fast. It's nailed on that not everyone heading past the Wall is coming back. In fact I'm sure this is the end of Jorah - giving his life to save Jon because he knows she falling in love with him.

(It wouldn't surprise me if only Jon and The Hound make it back).

 

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