Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

84 posts in this topic

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:24 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on the bolded part. This I think is my single biggest criticism of D&D (and that says quite something, considering that there are many other very strong reasons I dislike their work).

And by this I mean their underlying theme that no one has any principles or strongly held beliefs or causes whatsoever. Instead, every lord is simply out to promote his own survival and power by whatever means necessary. If that means the Umbers just deliver Rickon to the Boltons, then so be it. If that means that the Glovers and most of the other Northern lords just abandon the Starks when the going gets tough, then so be it.

If it means even the most devout lords just look the other way when Cersei blows up the holiest place of their entire religion, then oh well, all's hunky dory. And if it means the Tarlys just betray their liege lords because Cersei offered them a better deal, then that's fine too.

Basically, everyone is Bronn. His personality defines the average lord in Westeros. There is no place for the Bronze Yohn Royces, Greatjon Umbers, Robett Glovers, Blackfishes, Barristan Selmys, Vances, Pipers and the like from the books. They are either portrayed as naive fools who die off early, or as romantic idealists who die honorably (Selmy), or they just become turncloacks after putting up some cursory resistance (Tarly). There is no enduring place for them in this Show. Nope, in D&D's world, the Littlefingers, Boltons and Freys are the norm. And Bronn is the ultimate representative of humanity.

And frankly, it just sucks.

Sounds like history though. The land barons and aristocracy tended to jump ship when it suited them (admittedly we tend to hear more about the worst ones, but still).


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On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 1:03 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

I disagree. I think one of the strengths of his writing is the incredible scope and vision he has. Each character he has introduced, even late on in the story, has had a point and a part to play. It would be entirely different if he was making them up without a purpose. But characters like Aegon, Euron etc have more than improved an already brilliant piece of work.

In the early days I absolutely agree. But vision and scope is no good if you've opened it up far too wide and then get stuck piecing it all back together again. This is my second favourite book series, but I refuse to call it brilliant if he has painted himself into a corner and cannot deliver an ending because it's too bloated.


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34 minutes ago, Daske said:

I don't think so. Things change fast. It's nailed on that not everyone heading past the Wall is coming back. In fact I'm sure this is the end of Jorah - giving his life to save Jon because he knows she falling in love with him.

(It wouldn't surprise me if only Jon and The Hound make it back).


Gendry will make it back and probably Tormund as well since we know D & D have have a plan to ship Tormund + Brienne.

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I think the show made a huge mistake by not including Young Griff, regardless of whether he is real or fake Aegon. In the books, Young Griff has just landed in Westeros ready to take on Cersei, with a potential alliance with Dorne forming via Arienne. It's very reasonable to speculate that Young Griff will likely take the Iron Throne from Cersei and then sets up a final test for Dany. One of my favorite things about GRRM's writing is that he blurs the lines between black and white morality and explores the grey areas where it isn't so clear what is morally right. Many readers grow to love Jaime for this very reason. Most readers hate him at the start of the series but many grow to love him after seeing what he's been through. With Young Griff taking the Iron Throne, it would again set up a great opportunity for the dramatic when Dany has to take the throne from her (supposed) nephew. From the books so far, we learn that Young Griff is very talented, charismatic, and fit to be a great ruler. Varys supports him for this very reason. It would leave many readers split on who they would be rooting for, Young Griff or Dany, knowing that both have the potential to be great rulers. Right now in the show, its Dany or Cersei, which is so bland. Of course everyone will side with Dany. It would be very interesting to see who Jon Snow and the north would side with in a war between Dany and Young Griff. It wouldn't be a simple decision of "hmm... the mother of dragons or the woman who has killed thousands of innocent people and is indirectly responsible for the death of Ned and Robb Stark."

Anyways, the show has hinted about how they are circumventing Young Griff and JonCon by merging them with potential characters. It's clear they've merged JonCon with Jorah, but not so clear with who has taken on Young Griff. The show seems to be setting up Cersei + The Golden Company for Season 8, which would make sense since Young Griff and The Golden Company vs Dany may happen in the books. 

Option 1: They are merging Young Griff with Cersei, she'll get the Golden Company and have one last shot at defeating Dany. I also don't understand why the show hasn't brought in Euron's dragon horn, so maybe they are saving it for later on. I hope they include it, because that dragon horn will undoubtedly play a large role in the books to come and would actually give Dany's foes a reasonable weapon that could give her trouble (like a couple Scorpions are going to take down Drogon... really HBO?"

Option 2: They are merging Young Griff with Jon Snow. One could speculate that Young Griff and Dany will try to be allies in the books only to have things fall apart. Varys is clearly starting to have doubts about Dany's leadership in the show. If he were to find out that Jon Snow had a better claim to the throne (which HBO hinted at with Gilly stumbling upon Rhaegar's annulment), Varys could jump ship to Jon's side. The main problem with this is Jon Snow would never want to sit on the Iron Throne... so Dany vs Jon wouldn't make all too much sense.

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