The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III

[lokisnow]

3 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Where's that from? It's a shame TPB seems abandoned right now - I think he'd like that description!

Good omens the nice and accurate prophecies of Agnes nutter, witch

[Spring Bass]

I wish we could get an Atrocity Tale or other short story from a witch's perspective (one that doesn't end with her being burned). The informal, "folkloric" version of the Anagogis, taught from witch to witch in secret with secret codes and words so that they have a sorcerous language, etc. 

[Callan S.]

6 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I thought it was because the gods cant see past the tme were they cease to exist, and at some point the no god wins.

But that is after determining before.

Even if you have Kalbear's book analogy, you have another book that is rewriting the first book to adhere to it. Which is fine as the survivor himself thinks 'this has all happened before' (IIRC). But why is that happening? Kelmomas has two souls, Celmomas had two souls. It doesn't have to be related to two souls, but 'it just is because they just can't see it' seems a little flimsy. For example, one soul could be from the other book. The transitioning of the two and the infinite soul might be the pivot by which whole universes are rewritten and it even redrafts in a way that evades, like a white luck warrior, the gods capacity to percieve...but never mind that. I just find 'they can't see him because he is 'always' the no god' not all that engaging. What's the trigger here - what makes Kel different? "Because he's the no god..." No, this is missing the paradox...

[Rhom]

Didn't RSB say it's because Lil Kel was always destined to be the No God?

[unJon]

3 hours ago, Callan S. said:

But that is after determining before.

Even if you have Kalbear's book analogy, you have another book that is rewriting the first book to adhere to it. Which is fine as the survivor himself thinks 'this has all happened before' (IIRC). But why is that happening? Kelmomas has two souls, Celmomas had two souls. It doesn't have to be related to two souls, but 'it just is because they just can't see it' seems a little flimsy. For example, one soul could be from the other book. The transitioning of the two and the infinite soul might be the pivot by which whole universes are rewritten and it even redrafts in a way that evades, like a white luck warrior, the gods capacity to percieve...but never mind that. I just find 'they can't see him because he is 'always' the no god' not all that engaging. What's the trigger here - what makes Kel different? "Because he's the no god..." No, this is missing the paradox...

In Earwa what comes after determines what comes before. 

I understand you don't find the explanation engaging, but saying "because he's two souled" is also functionally equivalent to "because a wizard did it."

Theres also no evidence that old Celmomas was invisible to the gods for being two souled. In fact some god (Gilgaol or Ajokli) appeared to him at his death. 

[Happy Ent]

What is the board consensus on when Kellhus becomes Ajoklified?

[Rhom]

10 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

What is the board consensus on when Kellhus becomes Ajoklified?

I believe the RSB answer is that he has always been Ajoklified.

I think the first time we really see it is on the Circumfix.

[Consigliere]

Yeah, since in Earwa "what comes after determines what comes before", I assume that to mean that Kellhus was always Ajokli entangled and The Circumfix is the point we can now look back on as where this becomes the most apparent to the reader. Also, if we assume that the Haloes were a deception on the part of Ajokli then he has been Ajokli entangled since the beginning since Serwe is the first to see the Haloes back in book 1.

[odium]

Small quip, how would you guys pronounce Gilgaol, Nil'giccas, and Su'juroit? 

[Happy Ent]

On 10/08/2017 at 7:05 AM, Faint said:

No way. We're talking about someone who:

1. Published the last book in his series more than six years ago. 
2. Originally thought his next book would be released in early 2015.
3. Then in the spring of 2015, he thought he could finish the book by late summer.
4. Then when late summer came around, he though he could finish it by the end of 2015.
5. Then in the beginning of 2016, he thought he was just "months" away.
6. Now we're hearing that 2017 is not happening and that 2018 is doubtful. 

To be perfectly honest, we're probably getting The No-God: Book 1 before we get The Winds of Winter. 

Some of us have written posts like this since 2001. Makes you realise that GRRM is also writing epic fantasy around the main idea that Ever are men deceived in a meta-narrative way.

[Happy Ent]

22 minutes ago, odium said:

Small quip, how would you guys pronounce Gilgaol, Nil'giccas, and Su'juroit? 

'ɡɪlgɑːɒl or maybe 'ɡɪlgɑoːl 

nɪl'gikɛs

suː'juːrɔɪt

I’m very unsure about that the apostrophe in the Nonmen names is supposed to do. I view it as a stress marker, but we have no information. I also don’t know if j is /j/ (as in yes) or /dʒ/ (as in giant). I assume there is a diareses over the o in Gilgaöl, but it seems to have disappeared, as in Zeüm. 

 

[Happy Ent]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

I believe the RSB answer is that he has always been Ajoklified.

I think the first time we really see it is on the Circumfix.

I see at least three earlier possibilities:

1. Leaves Ishuäl and goes crazy for a while.

2. Rape of Serwë. Here we have his internal POV telling us that something iffy is going on.

3. Anywhere before “Punish the Shrial knights.”

Or are we saying it happened already to Young!Kellhus?

[Hello World]

Or Ajokli was involved since Celmomas received the Prophecy and the vision of Kellhus.

[Darth Richard II]

8 hours ago, Callan S. said:

But that is after determining before.

Even if you have Kalbear's book analogy, you have another book that is rewriting the first book to adhere to it. Which is fine as the survivor himself thinks 'this has all happened before' (IIRC). But why is that happening? Kelmomas has two souls, Celmomas had two souls. It doesn't have to be related to two souls, but 'it just is because they just can't see it' seems a little flimsy. For example, one soul could be from the other book. The transitioning of the two and the infinite soul might be the pivot by which whole universes are rewritten and it even redrafts in a way that evades, like a white luck warrior, the gods capacity to percieve...but never mind that. I just find 'they can't see him because he is 'always' the no god' not all that engaging. What's the trigger here - what makes Kel different? "Because he's the no god..." No, this is missing the paradox...

Um, did you miss the RSB quote where he literally says that what comes after determines what comes before? I'm quoting almost verbatim.

 

Edit: Hell I think the quote is in this thread, I'll pull it up later. Sure it may not be engaging but it's literally what Bakker said, and has said, multiple times.

[jurble]

3 hours ago, odium said:

Small quip, how would you guys pronounce Gilgaol, Nil'giccas, and Su'juroit? 

Gill as in fish gills, ga as in gasp, ol as in old.

Nil as in nil, gic rhymes with sick, as as in as except the s is unvoiced.

Su as in sue, ju like jewish, ro like salmon roe, and it like it.   I'm not sure whether the ' in the Nonman is meant to be a phoneme.  It's often used to represent the glottal stop in languages that have glottal spots.

[lokisnow]

4 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

What is the board consensus on when Kellhus becomes Ajoklified?

Certainly he first communes with ajokli on the circumfix, but we can take all of the iterations of the halos (carrying no sorcerous mark on the halos and described by kellhus as "the light of delusion") as caused by ajokli's possession. "There was revelation." Isn't the probability trance, because revelation is a religious word, that is kellhus deceiving himself while ajokli provides the insights.

incidentally, we also have a perfectly simple explanation for the skin spy halos: ajokli participated in the rape and betrayal of serwe; he probably thought it was fun.

There's also this, which is a direct indication of ajokli participation:

"Kellhus laughed. He seemed to shine about the pit of the Chorae"

From early inTTT so when we should expect more participation from ajokli.

its irritating and lame that so much of the series is reliant on keeping sauron a secret and nothing more.

[Galbrod]

But Kellhus would never have left Ishual if it was not for Moe senior. Are we to assume that Ajokli pulled the strings of Moe as well?

[kuenjato]

If Kelmomas was "always" the No-God, what's going on at the beginning of TJE when he starts chuckling with Ajokli over the mutilated beetle? Is it Kel offering the beetle to the shrine that makes him perceptible to the four-horned god?

The stuff about the halos and other clues is great stuff, but yeah, extremely obscure.

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

If Kelmomas was "always" the No-God, what's going on at the beginning of TJE when he starts chuckling with Ajokli over the mutilated beetle? Is it Kel offering the beetle to the shrine that makes him perceptible to the four-horned god?

The stuff about the halos and other clues is great stuff, but yeah, extremely obscure.

Your looking for meaning when there probably isn't any. 

[Faint]

4 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Some of us have written posts like this since 2001. Makes you realise that GRRM is also writing epic fantasy around the main idea that Ever are men deceived in a meta-narrative way.

He really is and, we have to add, no one being more deceived than himself about himself.