The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III

[kuenjato]

Other one's getting full.

A critical mistake with TAE, in my opinion, was the split. Most of the revelations about the world/Gods/Non-men occurred in The Great Ordeal; the last book suffered in comparison, with the only revelations emerging in the Golden Room. If RSB had been more disciplined in his structuring, TUC could have been still pretty discussion-worthy for all the Ishterebinth / Ishual / Gods-eating-souls-head-on-a-pole. But all that has been covered for a year now, and instead we get icky Ordeal stuff (with the cannibalism predicable from the first chapter of TJE), decent reunions, and a pretty interesting climax made less interesting by the author's post-release admissions.

[unJon]

The best way to sum it up after reading the AMA, is when I finished TJE and thought "Wow the gods are real? How did I miss that in PoN?" And we had a bunch of deep speculation about how the gods were there in PoN all along but clever Bakker hid them in plain site by relying on our bias. But no, our initial instinct was right all along. The gods were not manifest in PoN because it was already so complex, Bakker didn't want to add them. 

Sigh. 

So we all should have seen this coming the moment we read TJE. Bakker conceals critical information on purpose. So that he can make everything ambiguous. It's like choose your own adventure without Bakker needing to write out the various adventures. 

Sigh. 

Doesn't make for very good storytelling. And this is from someone that was totally cool with Kellhus failing and being salted and dying and miveing on to whatever awaits Kellhus in his afterlife. 

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah like I've said before, Bakker really doesn't know what a whodunit is.

[kuenjato]

Another issue--and it's a big issue--is how much Bakker hyped this book for 6 years. How it would change the game of fantasy literature. How there was a moment when " the g-string was torn away", explaining everything, making us realign all assumptions upon completely unpredicted variables. Etc. Etc. But -- to extend RSB's grotesque metaphor -- it's like the stripper ripped away the G-string and all we see is a pendulous phallus, with an Inchorai head grafted on, grinning at us and chortling: "What? You expected something more?"

I will give Bakker credit. In the "what has gone on before" in TJE, he did write that Kellhus was insane.

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Well, i think Bakker thinks he pulled the g-string moment. With all this talk about meaning and if the books ending bothered you and you were upset, then meaning means more to you. To us, it doesnt mean shit, well, at least to me. But, its one of his philosophical things he got going. So, he thinks the g-string flew across the room and we're all here like, "WTF?". Whats up with Akka's dreams? How will Mimara effect TUC and whats her true importance? And on and on. Obviously, it didn't mean shit.

Still liked the book, not near as much as my favorites in the series. Kellhus dying and No-God walking wasnt a suprise and you could feel it coming as you read the book, there just wasnt enough pages for anything else. 

I really hope he redeems hisself with TUC, i do. But, im sure it'll be more ambiguous philosophical musings that can mean any amount of things. Lets pray not.

[Darth Richard II]

It's been quite a while since I've seen an author just plain fuck everything up in post book AMA/Q&A/whatever.

[kuenjato]

Wasn't there going to be something that would make us all re-evaluate the whole sexism argument? How Kalbear et al. were yammering about conclusions not yet established, etc? What did we get? A dragon screaming "CUNNY" and Serwa-Super-Sayain?

I still love PoN. I think it is a masterpiece, and my disappointment with TAE does not color it at all.

[Doc Holliday]

I'm so lost. Do you talk about the books here at all?

[Darth Richard II]

Ha, oh, I think the sexism argument has been done to death at this point, though I do remember something about having to wait for the end? I dunno.

Also, uh, someone said something in the earlier thread that Serwa might not be dead? How the fuck does that work?

[Darth Richard II]

Just now, Doc Holliday said:

I'm so lost. Do you talk about the books here at all?

Ha, yes, there's like...years and years and years of uh, "history" between certain posters and Bakker and such that has kidn of come to a head, but we are talking about the authors response to questions from said books.

[Doc Holliday]

Oh. Alright then.

I'll have to read up some more?

[Darth Richard II]

34 minutes ago, Doc Holliday said:

Oh. Alright then.

I'll have to read up some more?

Oh you'd have to read a bazillion old posts, don't bother, unless you're really bored at work. It's just why things seem to get weirdly derailed around here.

[kuenjato]

39 minutes ago, Doc Holliday said:

Oh. Alright then.

I'll have to read up some more?

Speculation has been raging round these parts for well over a decade -- I picked up the series in 2006 due to the volume of threads and the positive response -- and it's not an exaggeration to say that, save for GRRM on another part of this forum, Bakker is the most discussed author on Westeros. There's at least 60-70 locked threads devoted to dissecting his books and a shitload of drama that has built up from 2008-09, when arguments concerning the "deconstruction of sexism" began to emerge, complete with the author employing a sock-puppet to argue towards the merit of his work. We're at the critical moment in terms of Bakker discussion, with the release of TUC; if you want in-depth discussion as to the latest release, try the first post-release spoiler thread.

[Hello World]

4 hours ago, Doc Holliday said:

I'm so lost. Do you talk about the books here at all?

Not to be rude but are you Madness?

[mazzitos]

6 hours ago, kuenjato said:

" decent reunions"

I'm not sure that the reunions were decent at all. The characters have serious relationship problems, but they basically don't say anything, no affection, no conflict, no drama. It's like: "Hi, How are you, OK, Bye".

WTF, I was expecting some serious dialogues. You can't develop a POV and different plots for several books and in the end the payoff = nothing.

He could publish only the ending of TUC as a novella, because the rest of the TAE is unsubstantial and feels like a filler or is  there as a prelude to another sequel.

This is becoming another fantasy soap opera series.

[Hello World]

Quote

The best way to sum it up after reading the AMA, is when I finished TJE and thought "Wow the gods are real? How did I miss that in PoN?" And we had a bunch of deep speculation about how the gods were there in PoN all along but clever Bakker hid them in plain site by relying on our bias. But no, our initial instinct was right all along. The gods were not manifest in PoN because it was already so complex, Bakker didn't want to add them. 

Sigh. 

I couldn't help but laugh at that one... I'm sure if Bakker had read any of the speculations you mention he wouldn't have said it. That said, I never really bought these explanations all that much. But this is a good case to just ignore what Bakker said and assume your own interpretation. Death of the author and all.

[Larry.]

I'm getting this sense that if his writings devolve any further, there might be a shift toward Goodkind-style parodies of his AMAs/writing in the very near future.  I'll be honest:  I enjoyed the first trilogy, but as I've grown older, I'm just not really feeling the supposed importance of many of his ideas, especially since his attempt to graft a quasi-scriptural narrative onto the stories/characters already established seems, to me at least, to flatten out and distort arcs that otherwise could have been well-developed.  I've read the first third of TUC and I just haven't had much motivation to read on yet (then again, I haven't had much motivation to read much of anything the past two years).  A haphazardly-constructed attempt at existential horror (the Ordeal scenes) combined with incomplete characterizations just leads to a massively ill-executed thematic presentation, at least so far.  It feels like the conclusion to Neuropath is awaiting, with even less development of ideas into that construct called humanity.

[jurble]

14 hours ago, unJon said:

The best way to sum it up after reading the AMA, is when I finished TJE and thought "Wow the gods are real? How did I miss that in PoN?" And we had a bunch of deep speculation about how the gods were there in PoN all along but clever Bakker hid them in plain site by relying on our bias. But no, our initial instinct was right all along. The gods were not manifest in PoN because it was already so complex, Bakker didn't want to add them. 

Sigh. 

 

Gilgaol, Onkhis and even Ajokli as confirmed by Bakker were all there in PoN.  So looking back for hints of the Gods was the correct thing to do.  But what we interpreted as Bakker 'hiding the Gods in plain sight' to mess with our modern notions of gods not existing was not authorial brilliance but authorial neglect.

[Grizzly Mormont]

14 hours ago, Doc Holliday said:

I'm so lost. Do you talk about the books here at all?

it used to be a blast to talk about the books here, but then the author got online and told us everything was strawberry fields forever. now we're talking about that. 

[danylmc]

Quote

Oh. Alright then.

I'll have to read up some more?

I envy you! You're about to read speculations and theories about Bakker's books that turned out to be WAY more creative and ingenious and interesting than the story the author was actually telling.