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kuenjato

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III

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2 minutes ago, Faint said:

Um, that's a no...

"And, yes, I know you all want to know about THE WINDS OF WINTER too. I've seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by 'journalists' who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say. Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream..."

Translation from GRRM bullshit into English: Maybe 2020?  

If that.

Which is why I would still put my money on Bakker.

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I really feel we should have seen the failure of Kellhus coming from all the way back in TJE or even TTT given the kind of tone of manhood surrounding the whole thing. We have the supposed ubermensch raising another man's son? Being an actual, literal, aware cuck? Of course he was going to fail :P

And given Akkas whole hang up is having his wife stolen, he's not going to fare any better in the next series either, three trilogies of witnessing at best for him.

For those that don't know me, this is very much not reflective of my personal views, but tongue in cheek cynical view of the authors.

 

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14 hours ago, Galbrod said:

I don't have a problem with a series of manipulative links in the text from individuals->Kellhus->Ajokli and beyond, but if we combine those links with the narrative of the darkness of the things that are closest to us (Esmi/Kelmo), it just makes it a bit difficult to frame what the series is actually about.

Not sure where you're coming from - are you taking it the darkness could only be one thing?

To me, what it'd be about is that there can be many things in the darkness that comes before.

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5 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Not sure where you're coming from - are you taking it the darkness could only be one thing?

To me, what it'd be about is that there can be many things in the darkness that comes before.

Totally agree that darkness can be many things, what I'm having a problem with determining is if the otherwise super-rational Kellhus are making unrational decisions based on either (a) personal fallacy/darkness or (b) outside influence/Ajokli. Or both.

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25 minutes ago, Galbrod said:

Totally agree that darkness can be many things, what I'm having a problem with determining is if the otherwise super-rational Kellhus are making unrational decisions based on either (a) personal fallacy/darkness or (b) outside influence/Ajokli. Or both.

I think you're striking onto a core theme in this. There's a reason he describes it as being 'a slave to the darkness that comes before' - a slave because of not being able to pick out which dang influence is bubbling up. As a reader we can't really tell, it was subtle all the way through and...that certainly gives an idea of how inscrutable something could be. That murky ambiguity is part of the landscape of the books - like there is a body horror genre, the books should bill themselves as psycho horror. Body horror has things invading the body and melding with it - psycho horror is much the same.

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Really wish we could get a sologdin review of the book.  Will check goodreads.

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From Darth

Quote

Maybe you should read the entire AMA?

The whole 'it's all meaningless' thing isn't there.

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Ok I finished tUC a few days ago and after letting it roll through my head for a while, reading the AMA and parts of the threads here I believe its time for me to comment my thoughts.

Overall I really liked the book. I thought it was a great conclusion to the series and there's even a part of me that wouldn't be heartbroken should we never receive The No God series. Of course, the vast majority of me is looking forward to the next book with an anxiety I have long stopped feeling for tWoW. While I do share some of the complaints voiced by other boarders, (the reveal of Kellhus being possessed, the somewhat lackluster of Akka and Mimara's arrival and the total ambiguity of Shae possessing the Dunyain) I am not as bothered by them as some seem to be. The related issues aside, the return of the No God was without question some of the best writing I have ever read in terms of the horror it entailed. The description of the Boding in particular was riveting.

Here are some questions (and some general observations) I haven't seen discussed too much, if at all:

How the heck did Serwa and Co escape Ishterebinth? I assume once Serwa began singing they were able to battle their way out of their pretty easily, but I would have liked more detail there.

What was the deal with Obwe attacking the remaining Intact when they arrived at Golgotterath? I get that Bakker likes to emphasize the failings of men, but I did not get that one. Seems like a huge blunder with little to justify it. Do we think the Intact survived the Choare hail at the end? The chapter described the Ordeal's sorcerers being eliminated, but not the Nonmen. 

Aurax left me scratching my head. I really hope that was part of ShaeSult's ploy to trap Kellhus, because otherwise he was not what I was expecting at all. Maybe he'll have a greater role in the next series.

I really hope Serwa and Kayutas survived. I was actually starting to like Serwa a lot.

This might have been pointed out a long time ago, but it recently struck me that Qirri is Bakker's lembas.

One additional note- I was reading Kellhus's betrayal of Proyas right when Trump was blasting Jeff Sessions and I couldn't help but draw some parallels and find it very humorous.

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7 minutes ago, Ghjhero said:

What was the deal with Obwe attacking the remaining Intact when they arrived at Golgotterath? I get that Bakker likes to emphasize the failings of men, but I did not get that one. Seems like a huge blunder with little to justify it. Do we think the Intact survived the Choare hail at the end? The chapter described the Ordeal's sorcerers being eliminated, but not the Nonmen.

This isn't quite right. Someone else way back in the thread had this same misapprehension. Guswuran leads out his Mysunsai in order to form up a with Quya beyond the walls. There's a line about how Cilculiccas recognizes the Grandmaster intent immediately. Sujara-nin sees the Mikka Council compass on his coat or whatever, gets triggered, and go apeshit on all the Mysunsai. Guswuran and the rest are only casting mundane wards and not ones against sorcery because they aren't expecting a fight at all, because they know the Nonmen are allies.

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said:

This isn't quite right. Someone else way back in the thread had this same misapprehension. Guswuran leads out his Mysunsai in order to form up a with Quya beyond the walls. There's a line about how Cilculiccas recognizes the Grandmaster intent immediately. Sujara-nin sees the Mikka Council compass on his coat or whatever, gets triggered, and go apeshit on all the Mysunsai. Guswuran and the rest are only casting mundane wards and not ones against sorcery because they aren't expecting a fight at all, because they know the Nonmen are allies.

Ohhhhhh!!! That makes a lot more sense. I read the line about Cilculiccas recognizing the Grandmaster's intent as an aggressive action. Guess it was just the dolour making problems for everyone again.

Something else that came to mind. In the AMA Bakker hinted at Eanna featuring in the next series. Is there any evidence to suggest we will meet Nonmen that evaded the Inoculation and thus the Womb Plague?  

Edited by Ghjhero

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1 hour ago, Ghjhero said:

Something else that came to mind. In the AMA Bakker hinted at Eanna featuring in the next series. Is there any evidence to suggest we will meet Nonmen that evaded the Inoculation and thus the Womb Plague?  

Doubtful...seeing how the Inoculation is what granted the Nonman immortality.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Doubtful...seeing how the Inoculation is what granted the Nonman immortality.

Yeah but why would they die off if they still had nonwomen as well?

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38 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Doubtful...seeing how the Inoculation is what granted the Nonman immortality.

? Assuming any such existing Cunuroi have women folk, they can be around by having babies still?

 

What is interesting is the absoluteness of the treatment - no one said no. But I guess immortality really is a massive goad. 

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19 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

? Assuming any such existing Cunuroi have women folk, they can be around by having babies still?

 

What is interesting is the absoluteness of the treatment - no one said no. But I guess immortality really is a massive goad. 

I thought there's mention of one nonman that said no? Maybe the king of Ishroil before Nil'G?

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5 hours ago, unJon said:

I thought there's mention of one nonman that said no? Maybe the king of Ishroil before Nil'G?

Really? Prob is he needs a lady to say no as well.

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It took over a hundred years for them to all take the Innoculation, so it's not that implausible that virtually all of them eventually took it (especially since the only holiness that Nonmen attach to death is the holy Between-Way to bypass the Gods and find oblivion). It's also possible there were other objectors to it besides the founding king of Ishterebinth, but they didn't survive the ravages of the Inchoroi-Curunoi Wars. 

I don't get the impression that they existed east of the Kayarsus from any of the stuff in the Glossary. Siol is mentioned specifically in the Glossary as being both in the northern Kayarsus and as the bulwark against the "mannish hordes" to the east. 

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