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kuenjato

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III

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Finished the book yesterday and just like how I felt with great ordeal. I like the "story" but have no idea with what is going on because of the way he writes.

 

Only reason I have even an understanding of what happened in this series is werts fantastic recap and these forum threads 

 

I think if there is another series I'll just wait for wert to recap it again.

 

I do have a question. What was the purpose of sorweel exactly? From my understanding he is tasked by a god to kill kelhus and is immune to being unmasked by kelhus. He is sent with Sera and serwa and moenghus have sex to make sorweel jealous so he can do something for Sereally after they escape ishterberinth

 

Was his purpose to fall in love with serwa so that serwa has a "darkness" like kelhus (esement)? Then kelmomas slits his throat as kelhus was approaching sorweel (was sorweel actually in the position to kill kelhus at that point because from what I gathered he had truly become a believer king at that point?)

 

And then when sorweel gets his throat cut it does something to serwa that allows her to be the person she needs to be to kill the dragon? 

 

Or am I just completely wrong

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11 minutes ago, oberonus said:

Finished the book yesterday and just like how I felt with great ordeal. I like the "story" but have no idea with what is going on because of the way he writes.

 

Only reason I have even an understanding of what happened in this series is werts fantastic recap and these forum threads 

 

I think if there is another series I'll just wait for wert to recap it again.

 

I do have a question. What was the purpose of sorweel exactly? From my understanding he is tasked by a god to kill kelhus and is immune to being unmasked by kelhus. He is sent with Sera and serwa and moenghus have sex to make sorweel jealous so he can do something for Sereally after they escape ishterberinth

 

Was his purpose to fall in love with serwa so that serwa has a "darkness" like kelhus (esement)? Then kelmomas slits his throat as kelhus was approaching sorweel (was sorweel actually in the position to kill kelhus at that point because from what I gathered he had truly become a believer king at that point?)

 

And then when sorweel gets his throat cut it does something to serwa that allows her to be the person she needs to be to kill the dragon? 

 

Or am I just completely wrong

it seems more like yatwer activated a white luck system override, so even though he was starting to believe in kelhus, the goddess flipped a switch and his personal beliefs didn't matter anymore. i got the impression he (sorweel) was actually very close to killing kelhus, but kelmomas stabbed him right in the head. kelhus and the other dunyain couldn't read sorweels face due to yatwer, so sorweel was a real threat. kelmomas is invisible to the gods, so he could see through the god power. 

i think serwa genuinely came to love sorweel. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorweel becomes a WLW. He would have killed Kellhus if not for Kelmomas stopping him, I think. Kelmomas was the only one who could see through his guise as a believer-king because he's the No-God. It was a bit convenient for Kelmomas to decide that he wanted to save Kellhus all of a sudden, didn't he previously want him dead?

Either way, I don't get the point of having Sorweel become the WLW and do the same thing that the last WLW did and then be stopped by Kelmomas in a similar way. Maybe Bakker could have cut out the first WLW and just kept Sorweel.

eta: @Grizzly Mormontbeat me to it.

Edited by Hello World

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, oberonus said:

I do have a question. What was the purpose of sorweel exactly? From my understanding he is tasked by a god to kill kelhus and is immune to being unmasked by kelhus. He is sent with Sera and serwa and moenghus have sex to make sorweel jealous so he can do something for Sereally after they escape ishterberinth

 

Was his purpose to fall in love with serwa so that serwa has a "darkness" like kelhus (esement)? Then kelmomas slits his throat as kelhus was approaching sorweel (was sorweel actually in the position to kill kelhus at that point because from what I gathered he had truly become a believer king at that point?)

 

His purpose in what sense, in terms of plot or composition?  In terms of plot, he was sent to Ishterebinth as an enemy as part of the Nonman diplomatic ritual known as the Niom, where you send a son, a daughter and an enemy to seal a pact.   Moe and Serwa have sex to ensure his jealously so that the Niom is honored.

His purpose wasn't to give Serwa darkness.  And he doesn't get his throat slit, Kelmomas throws a dagger into his temple.  And he wasn't a Believer-King... he was the White-Luck Warrior.  He had become a Believer during Ishterebinth, but when he saw the Rape-Cannibalism in the Ordeal, he fell back into hatred.  You seem to have completely missed... everything involving his plot-line.

In a narrative composition sense, I think Sorweel's purpose was basically just world-building.  Showing us some Nonman stuff, showing us how the Gods interact with the world, and maybe some typical Bakker jibber-jabber about identity after his soul is fused with Immiricas'.

5 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

it seems more like yatwer activated a white luck system override, so even though he was starting to believe in kelhus, the goddess flipped a switch and his personal beliefs didn't matter anymore. i

She didn't flip anything, seeing the Ordeal rape and eat each other did that.  Zsoronga getting executed didn't help.

 

5 minutes ago, Hello World said:

 It was a bit convenient for Kelmomas to decide that he wanted to save Kellhus all of a sudden, didn't he previously want him dead?

The voices in Kel's head decide that total devotion to Kellhus would be the best way to preserve their own lives, since they come to think Kellhus' power so far eclipses their own and he's already inclined towards killing them that it's the only chance they have.

Edited by Ajûrbkli

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So in the grand scheme of things his entire plot was pointless besides some nonman world building. That's kinda what I figured 

 

What ever happened to kelhus' grandson at the end of TGO? Just running around somewhere to be used in the next series?

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16 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

The voices in Kel's head decide that total devotion to Kellhus would be the best way to preserve their own lives, since they come to think Kellhus' power so far eclipses their own and he's already inclined towards killing them that it's the only chance they have.

Yeah, I didn't find that very convincing. The voice previously wanted Kellhus dead, and they decided to instead serve him because he's a threat, so why would Kelmomas passionately save him instead of letting him die?

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1 minute ago, oberonus said:

So in the grand scheme of things his entire plot was pointless besides some nonman world building. That's kinda what I figured 

 

What ever happened to kelhus' grandson at the end of TGO? Just running around somewhere to be used in the next series?

Yes and yes.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Yeah, I didn't find that very convincing. The voice previously wanted Kellhus dead, and they decided to instead serve him because he's a threat, so why would Kelmomas passionately save him instead of letting him die?

CUZ HE CRAZY.

 

And i don't think Sorweel is pointless... anymore than Xerius or Conphas were in the first trilogy.   Like... Bakker's still trying to write a story that's entertaining on some level and Ishterebinth was very entertaining.  We're supposed to feel some sort of dramatic tension as Sorweel slowly approaches Kellhus' knee and Kelmomas is trying to figure out what's up.

Edited by Ajûrbkli

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19 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

She didn't flip anything, seeing the Ordeal rape and eat each other did that.  Zsoronga getting executed didn't help.

 I don't agree with you here. The change in his pov was very abrupt, and i got the impression it was triggered by a stork flying across the opening in the tent. 

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

We're supposed to feel some sort of dramatic tension as Sorweel slowly approaches Kellhus' knee and Kelmomas is trying to figure out what's up.

Oh, it was very dramatic and one of the most tense scenes in the book, right there with the No-God Mimara reveal as my two favorite scenes in terms of the way they're written. I just don't see the point of having two WLWs do the same thing instead of one. eta: also agree that his change into WLW was very abrupt to me.

Edited by Hello World

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

 I don't agree with you here. The change in his pov was very abrupt, and i got the impression it was triggered by a stork flying across the opening in the tent. 

No, he turns into the WLW when Serwa comes to his tent after Zsoronga's execution.  There's no stork involved. He just angrier and suddenly he sees Kellhus turned into a pillar of salt and Serwa is leaving his tent and simultaneously casting sorcery (page 196 physical us copy), and then the next time we get his PoV he's the WLW (page 202).  There's a reference to a 'stork on his shoulder' but it's not literal.

Edited by Ajûrbkli

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there's a stork that flies across the opening of the tent and only he sees it, but i don't have my book with me. didn't serwa have sex with him in the tent after telling him they killed him for being a traitor? this was also after zoronga raped him the night before. seemed to me like it was too abrupt a change to have come from sorweel, and yatwer just activated the program, and once activated he could see all actions between the moment and the moment kelhus turned to salt, and serwa killed him with sorcery after the assassination. 

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8 hours ago, Larry. said:

I'm getting this sense that if his writings devolve any further, there might be a shift toward Goodkind-style parodies of his AMAs/writing in the very near future.  I'll be honest:  I enjoyed the first trilogy, but as I've grown older, I'm just not really feeling the supposed importance of many of his ideas, especially since his attempt to graft a quasi-scriptural narrative onto the stories/characters already established seems, to me at least, to flatten out and distort arcs that otherwise could have been well-developed.  I've read the first third of TUC and I just haven't had much motivation to read on yet (then again, I haven't had much motivation to read much of anything the past two years).  A haphazardly-constructed attempt at existential horror (the Ordeal scenes) combined with incomplete characterizations just leads to a massively ill-executed thematic presentation, at least so far.  It feels like the conclusion to Neuropath is awaiting, with even less development of ideas into that construct called humanity.

Ha, I didn't want to bring up Goodkind but yeah, that's the feeling I'm getting from all this.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

there's a stork that flies across the opening of the tent and only he sees it, but i don't have my book with me. didn't serwa have sex with him in the tent after telling him they killed him for being a traitor? this was also after zoronga raped him the night before. seemed to me like it was too abrupt a change to have come from sorweel, and yatwer just activated the program, and once activated he could see all actions between the moment and the moment kelhus turned to salt, and serwa killed him with sorcery after the assassination. 

There is no stork in his tent.  Serwa enters the room and his PoV slowly changes from normal to WLW.  He starts seeing things in the past and the future simultaneously.  Similarly in his next section, he doesn't immediately become the WLW,  he slowly turns into it.  And he doesn't have sex with Serwa.  She walks in, talks to him, grabs him by the shoulder and then leaves when he's all creepy.  There's a reference to jetting seed and sex, but that's a flashback to when he was having sex with Zsoronga.  Like.. just reread it.  It's not abrupt at all. 

 

35 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Wait, zoronga raped him? I thought that was consentual OH I GIVE UP

Initially it was consensual...ish, because he was trapped in Immiriccas' memories and thought he was having sex with Mu'miorn.  Then in the middle of the sex, he comes to his senses and the text says he realized "he had been and would be ravished..." He doesn't explicitly say no, but at that point he's just going with the weird-ass flow, since after that it says "he would rise to, even celebrate his violation."   So basically... the Immiriccas' part of him is into and the Sorweel part isn't.

Edited by Ajûrbkli

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3 hours ago, Hello World said:

Yeah, I didn't find that very convincing. The voice previously wanted Kellhus dead, and they decided to instead serve him because he's a threat, so why would Kelmomas passionately save him instead of letting him die?

Well, he doesn't somehow know the assassination will work. But more to the point he's shifted his mission/his goal and wants to suck up to Kellhus - who is his dad, who knows if that influences things.

Everyone assessed him as being unable to change from his fixation on his mother - but he changed.

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29 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Initially it was consensual...ish, because he was trapped in Immiriccas' memories and thought he was having sex with Mu'miorn.  Then in the middle of the sex, he comes to his senses and the text says he realized "he had been and would be ravished..." He doesn't explicitly say no, but at that point he's just going with the weird-ass flow, since after that it says "he would rise to, even celebrate his violation."   So basically... the Immiriccas' part of him is into and the Sorweel part isn't.

I'm not really seeing that - they reuinite, man hug, Zaronga takes him to the tent and finds the stealth chorae pouch to give to him - then makes him hold his penis, in a wtf moment. Sorweel even thinks 'I didn't mean this when we hugged'. But Zaronga has set up this notion of dominant and subordinate between them for some kinda random reason ('there is a cure' 'I'm not sick'). It makes me think of a variety of date rape. But here the male reader who might do as Zaronga did (a kind of very stupid assumption of not just intimacy between them with the hug but sexual intimacy), but the reader has been empathizing with Sorweel now finds what it's like to be in the other persons shoes - and so might not inflict this sort of sexual assault in future for finding out what it's like to be in the other persons shoes in such a situation. It's a fable, but a bit more applicable to our generation than, say, the ant and the grasshopper.

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Strangely, it is Kelmomas who sees the stork fly across the opening in the tent just before he stabs the shit out of sorweel's head. 

Sorweel does see a stork, however, as he is standing in front of zsoronga's body, just after Achamian talks to him. It is at this point that he gets the text message from Yatwer activating the Jason Bourne sleeper assassin program. 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/4/2017 at 4:47 PM, Kalbear said:

Specifically, I think this answer is the one that bothers a lot of people:

 

 

it is a feature, one that is supposed to make you ... find your own meaning. 

 

LMAO! you realize that Bakker, with this pathetic excuse, is stating that the READER is supposed to be searching for MEANING (in, he is claiming, a meaningless world.)

While he was intending to write a book that turned that "toothless saw" (bakker's words) upside down. and he has even been loudly proclaiming this was his primary intent for over a decade (and even restated in things he said with the release of TUC).

I'm not saying he is lying, I'm saying Bakker is deceived. Deceiving himself. The man is notorious at how poorly he takes criticism, and here he is in a snap moment lashing out at criticism by claiming that series is doing exactly what he has spent ten years saying it absolutely was not doing, but he needed a little moment of superiority, and saying the opposite of what he always says gave him that moment he so clearly craved.

It's downright Trump-like. ;p

***

Overall regarding the last couple pages on the new thread and old thread I have been thinking one thing.

Overlook published this, not a sci-fi, fantasy publisher.

Or rather Overlook got it into publishing shape (and then Orbit was like, "oh hai, I can haz?")

The project did not get picked up anywhere else.

When one thinks about how Neuropath is profoundly poor writing, and how stylistically akin the last two books are to Neuropath (rather than style cousins to the preceeding five books), I think we are getting a revelation into why Tor or Bantam or any of the other usual suspects didn't pick up the series. 

Because that draft must have been nigh on unreadable.

Bless the miracle worker editor who said, "I think we've got something here, if we make you re-write everything and take out all these bad parts and bad ideas and terrible execution, this could be really good." And somehow out of that unlikely editorial decision to give oneself a hard job, we got the really insanely incredible PON series. 

(perhaps this also explains a bit about why no other Overlook editor was wanting to touch the TGO/TUC manuscript, so much work to be done!)

 

Edited by lokisnow

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