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kuenjato

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III

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apropos of nothing. I am now reasonably certain that Bakker's original plan was to reveal the existence of the skin spies at the Circumfix Cnaiur-Sarcellus fight (to, dude, to blow everyone minds, dude!), and an editor made him make it clear from the beginning (probably persuading him by arguing that revealing the skin spies at the end of TDTCB is a more exciting ending to a first book than an ending in which a bunch of rich people talk and Kellhus thinks how much smarter he is than them).

Such a scenario would totally fit with how the Aspect Emperor was handled.

;)

 

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Quickly back to one bit from the AMA which is that RSB said that Kell's goal was "to save the world" or something very close to that.  I agree that this seems quite unsatisfying with how things played out but might it not be that what he meant was "to save the world from the Consult in the context where it was because he'd found a better situation under Ajokli?"  Because that latter explanation fits with the way TUC played out quite well.  It's very hard to reconcile Kellhus just wanting "to save the world" without that added context since, you know, he's not a prophet and he'd be the most damned of anyone and all that.

I guess my point is that for all of the potential reveals in the AMA I think that there could be some over-analysis of that piece because I can't see how it can be anything other than Kellhus wanted to save the world from the Consult but for his own convoluted reasons.  Did RSB really say otherwise?  

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It was disappointing to find out that Kellhus' Big Plan Reveal was that he cut a shitty deal with Ajokli (although the reveal where Ajokli took him over was cool). God, remember when we were predicting the "disenchantment" possibility where Mimara would be hugely important in the book? 

Sorweel was worth it only for the scene where he gets taken to Yatwer-Heaven, the various Kellhus and Kellhus-spawn misreading him, and for when Imrillicas is overlaying him. Meaning that all three times he personally isn't interesting, just what happens to him is interesting (and Imrillicas is fun to read from a POV, and only more fun when you read the glossary entry on how he became a haunted helmet). 

 

 

 

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ecause I can't see how it can be anything other than Kellhus wanted to save the world from the Consult but for his own convoluted reasons

That's exactly what I thought. If he genuinely cared about humanity he would shut the world against the Outside. 

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you realize that Bakker, with this pathetic excuse, is stating that the READER is supposed to be searching for MEANING (in, he is claiming, a meaningless world.)

So we're in a meaningless world searching for meaning in a story about a meaningful world? Interesting.

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1 hour ago, Hello World said:

If he genuinely cared about humanity he would shut the world against the Outside. 

If the Mutilated are right, the only way to do that is the No-God destroying most of humanity. I'm still not sure if that's a cost worth paying or if it's a cure worse than the disease.

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8 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

It was disappointing to find out that Kellhus' Big Plan Reveal was that he cut a shitty deal with Ajokli

But that wasn't the Big Plan per the AMA.  Kellhus had no idea Ajokli had possessed him and Ajokli was in control during the entire end of the Ordeal sequence not just the Golden Room.  We have no idea what Kellhus' actual plan was.

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Just now, Ajûrbkli said:

But that wasn't the Big Plan per the AMA.  Kellhus had no idea Ajokli had possessed him and Ajokli was in control during the entire end of the Ordeal sequence not just the Golden Room.  We have no idea what Kellhus' actual plan was.

But at the same time Kellhus is described as being 'under spiritual duress, while planning to assault the most dread fortress that ever existed'. So there must have been some sort of plan... 

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2 minutes ago, Galbrod said:

But at the same time Kellhus is described as being 'under spiritual duress, while planning to assault the most dread fortress that ever existed'. So there must have been some sort of plan... 

Right. We can assume that Kellhus had a plan - though given his God blindness we don't know a lot about it, and it is clear that much of it was being made up on the spot. For instance, his plan after dagliash was likely somewhat improvised, even after raping proyas. 

It seems like he has the knowledge to get into the golden room and knows he needs aurang for that. But the inverse fire is a surprise to him. Him being the no God is another. It's quite possible that Kellhus didn't have much of a concrete plan beside bringing as much power as he could to bear and hope for the best, largely because so much for him was unknowable. 

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On 2017-08-04 at 11:42 PM, Darth Richard II said:

Oh you'd have to read a bazillion old posts, don't bother, unless you're really bored at work. It's just why things seem to get weirdly derailed around here.

 

On 2017-08-04 at 11:51 PM, kuenjato said:

Speculation has been raging round these parts for well over a decade -- I picked up the series in 2006 due to the volume of threads and the positive response -- and it's not an exaggeration to say that, save for GRRM on another part of this forum, Bakker is the most discussed author on Westeros. There's at least 60-70 locked threads devoted to dissecting his books and a shitload of drama that has built up from 2008-09, when arguments concerning the "deconstruction of sexism" began to emerge, complete with the author employing a sock-puppet to argue towards the merit of his work. We're at the critical moment in terms of Bakker discussion, with the release of TUC; if you want in-depth discussion as to the latest release, try the first post-release spoiler thread.

 

23 hours ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

it used to be a blast to talk about the books here, but then the author got online and told us everything was strawberry fields forever. now we're talking about that. 

 

23 hours ago, danylmc said:

I envy you! You're about to read speculations and theories about Bakker's books that turned out to be WAY more creative and ingenious and interesting than the story the author was actually telling. 

Sounds like I should avoid reading the speculation here entirely then? I enjoyed the books but I haven't really ever discussed anything online. I've lurked around here since GOT premiered and I made this account half a decade ago to partake in a thread in misc on addiction but never did. A friend rec'd Bakker a year ago and I binged in the last couple months.

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46 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It seems like he has the knowledge to get into the golden room and knows he needs aurang for that. But the inverse fire is a surprise to him. Him being the no God is another. It's quite possible that Kellhus didn't have much of a concrete plan beside bringing as much power as he could to bear and hope for the best, largely because so much for him was unknowable. 

I would guess that Bakker, with his view of the ultimate ending so clear to him, did not elaborate that much on the agenda of Kellhus leading up to that very ending... The ending demanded that kellhus, Kelmo, Ajokli and the Consult were present... A believable plotline leading up to this moment does not appear to have been a high priority (in comparison to 50 pages of cannobalism and raping).

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Re: Loki's last post on the last page, the piracy debate between RSB and MisterGuyMan on TSA was pretty cringy and offered some perhaps unwanted insight into the temperament of the author (insofar as the tone he took throughout that "debate").

I'm still reeling at the fact this entire series ends on a note that sounds like one almighty copout. It's just... so bizarre. Stuff like the hypotheses around Mimara and the purpose of her and Akka's journey as Frodo and Sam, Sorweel, Meppa, Fanayal... I completely anticipated my expectations, greatly inspired from reading the discussion here, to be somehow circumvented or shown as half of the truth. But it just boggles my mind, as someone who has written a great deal in their spare time and thinks they understand the craft at least a little, that Bakker started all these plot threads and just did nothing with them. The dreams of Seswatha, for christ's sake!  It's almost aneurysm-inducing to then read that this is all because I'm conditioned to "balk at the absence of closure." 

I still think I find it completely irreconciliable from the POV of a creator. Knowing that your fantasy series will probably end with this book, or that the sequels you have in mind are at best possibilities, and then omitting characters who don't see any end to their story arcs, or leaving main story threads completely up in the air because, well, maybe you can tidy them up in TNG a few years down the road... :blink:

I dunno. The AMA answer Kalbear linked on the last page is accurate in one sense: I've learned to experience meaning in a new way. Or the lack thereof.

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On the phone so can't quote, but whoever above said Bakker doesn't take criticism well hit the nail on the head. Can you imagine what a professional editor has to go through? Reminds me of that Goodkind quote where he says he doesn't accept edits. :/

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if, somewhere along the way Bakker read Infinite Jest which - famously - has no ending or, rather 'the end of the story comes sometime after the end of the book', and then ran into trouble figuring out how to structure his own narrative and decided 'Fuck it. I'll be like David Foster Wallace and have no ending, and then I'll be a literary genius too!'

The critical difference being that from page one of Infinite Jest you know you're reading a work of post-modernist literature and so read it with certain expectations about non-traditional narrative structure, and Wallace's non-ending is totally compatible with the themes of his book. While from page one of The Darkness that Came Before you know you're reading a book with wizards and dragons and shit, and have expectations about the kind of story you're getting, and RSB's non-ending seems totally incompatible with the seemingly-intricate, densely plotted, heavily back storied narrative he seemed to be telling, and which he promised all his readers he was delivering for over ten years.

Edited by danylmc

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Doc Holliday said:

Sounds like I should avoid reading the speculation here entirely then? I enjoyed the books but I haven't really ever discussed anything online. I've lurked around here since GOT premiered and I made this account half a decade ago to partake in a thread in misc on addiction but never did. A friend rec'd Bakker a year ago and I binged in the last couple months.

It's up to you, the problem with speculation, apparently, is that Bakker intentionally decided to make shit go no-where. Kellhus instigates the Achamian plotline just to "witness his fidelity."  Like.... Bakker's AMA literally made the book worse.  Given his personality, I do think there's a non-zero chance he's trying to troll is and trying to make sort of statement about Death of the Author or something.

Because, for example, Kellhus instigating Akka and Mimara's journey for no reason is absurd and so Bakker's answer is absurd.  He, along with his replies that Baby Kellhus is "shocking", is merely trying to derail us from the truth - Kellhus wanted to become a baby.  We struck too close to gold on Baby Kellhus and now he's in authorial panic, trying to throw nonsense at us (Ajokli wasn't planned) to derail us.

Edited by Ajûrbkli

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 almost aneurysm-inducing to then read that this is all because I'm conditioned to "balk at the absence of closure." 

Did he actually say that in response to TUC critiques? I'm legit done with Bakker and his "philosophy".

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22 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

It's up to you, the problem with speculation, apparently, is that Bakker intentionally decided to make shit go no-where. Kellhus instigates the Achamian plotline just to "witness his fidelity."  Like.... Bakker's AMA literally made the book worse.  Given his personality, I do think there's a non-zero chance he's trying to troll is and trying to make sort of statement about Death of the Author or something.

Because, for example, Kellhus instigating Akka and Mimara's journey for no reason is absurd and so Bakker's answer is absurd.  He, along with his replies that Baby Kellhus is "shocking", is merely trying to derail us from the truth - Kellhus wanted to become a baby.  We struck too close to gold on Baby Kellhus and now he's in authorial panic, trying to throw nonsense at us (Ajokli wasn't planned) to derail us.

I remember Bakker had a post a long time ago about how he felt Death of the Author was bullshit, so....

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Just now, Hello World said:

Did he actually say that in response to TUC critiques? I'm legit done with Bakker and his "philosophy".

Yes :(

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6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I remember Bakker had a post a long time ago about how he felt Death of the Author was bullshit, so....

He did, saying it's the equivalent of saying butterflies are best understood in one of those collector book things.

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