ERRI8013

Daenerys' strategic skills

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Posted (edited)

Is it just my impression that the show is completely ignoring all the background where we learnt about the strategic skills of D.?

I mean, before Mereen she conquered every city she passed through using smart strategies... we learnt about her being a great conqueror but a not-so-smart ruler... an now it seems to me that in the show she has no idea about what to do and needs Tyrion even to make a single step.

Edited by ERRI8013

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Dany has always had advisors when she conquered Mereen and Yunkai. People with knowledge about those cities. Slavers bay was a plan on her on. It is smart for ger to listen to Tyrion. He knows Westeros. But Tyrion thinks (plans like a Lannister and Cersei knows how Tyrion thinks. So that gives Cersei that advantage. Dany is done letting Tyrion plan. But will still consider Tyrions thoughts on the next best move.

My thing is they should have planned all of this when they were in Dorne. If they did that Sand snakes would still be free. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree with both of you. It seem like Dany's completely hapless but at the same time she always had advisors such as Barristan. Barristan would be great now. Tyrion while very smart and knowledgeable about Westeros is at a loss being up against Cersei. He's got 2 strikes against him and I don't know where he goes from here. I think he needs to start thinking way outside the box.

Edited by TyrionFan82

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Tyrion has proven himself to be a horrible war time consigliere.  I have a feeling that is about to change once word of what happened at Highgarden reaches Dragonstone.  I can see Dany following Olenna's wise advice from episode two  going forward.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Tyrion has proven himself to be a horrible war time consigliere.  I have a feeling that is about to change once word of what happened at Highgarden reaches Dragonstone.  I can see Dany following Olenna's wise advice from episode two  going forward.

The person who had been advising her from the beginning is heading to her.  The reunion will be interesting with Tyrion being her Hand.  Also, Jon is still on Dragonstone and this get together with the man who's father exiled Jorah and the man who was Steward to Jorah's father. It will be interesting to see how Jorah  relates to Jon now that Lyanna is Jon's staunch ally and with Jon weilding Longclaw.  Also, Dany doesn't have a Maester. I'd think both Jorah and Jon would put in a good word for Sam, which would lead to an interesting Tarly plot. And perhaps Sam will bring the original scroll about Jon's true linage.

Edited by ViserionsFire
Forgot a point

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Well her plans for slavers bay was essentially trick the slavers in astapor. In yunkai she had people sneak in to open the doors and the same in mereen more or less. They tried to do that at casterly rock but were out manauvered. Personally I think that while tyrion will be great at peace time ruling he sucks at fighting and planning for it. Yes he was responsible for the win in blackwater but that was one battle and his whole plan was essentially blow them up with wildfire and then lead a group of men out of a tunnel.  She really needs not to listen to him. What will really anger her is that giving the promo's for next weeks episode she has to ask jon snow for help since every westerosi ally she has is dead or at least out of the fight.  I think dany listened to her advisors in the show for the mst part and with ser barristan and ser jorah she had two great field commanders advising her and it showed. Plus her plans in the free cities weren't massive like they are now they were just taking cities one by one.

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She doesn't have any military commanders.  She needed either Jorah, Barristan, or even at least Daario.

I don't know what is going to happen now that her entire fleet is supposedly destroyed.  How will the Dothraki move off of Dragonstone?  She might need the Northerners for that.

Tyrion didn't really win the Blackwater.  He simply held out long enough for his father's army to arrive.  If Tywin and Loras hadn't come, the city would have fallen in a few more hours.

The thing Dany is best at is burning people.  Her father would be so proud.

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Posted (edited)

Daenerys was never a military strategist.

In Essos, Daenerys had Barristan, Jorah and Daario as military strategists, this is why the won every battle

Now, she's stuck with a big mouth politician and pacifist, Saint Tyrion was never a soldier and he got over confidence in his military abilities after the blackwater bay battle (the battle that was won by Tywin and the Tyrells and not by Tyrion)

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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13 hours ago, TyrionFan82 said:

I agree with both of you. It seem like Dany's completely hapless but at the same time she always had advisors such as Barristan. Barristan would be great now. Tyrion while very smart and knowledgeable about Westeros is at a loss being up against Cersei. He's got 2 strikes against him and I don't know where he goes from here. I think he needs to start thinking way outside the box.

I agree. Jorah should be getting to Dany soon. Which will be helpful with strategic planning. 

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19 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

I mean, before Mereen she conquered every city she passed through using smart strategies...

Every city? There's only a handful of cities she passed through before Meereen, and she only conquered two of that handful, and she didn't use military strategy for the first one.

But I guess it did work all one time.

Which, hey, same for Westeros so far, where she's had one battle and, even though it was a gimme, she did have a smart strategy—in fact, the exact same one as in Essos—and she won.

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48 minutes ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

I agree. Jorah should be getting to Dany soon. Which will be helpful with strategic planning. 

Jorah's another VERY good one. Hopefully she starts winning.

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34 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Every city? There's only a handful of cities she passed through before Meereen, and she only conquered two of that handful, and she didn't use military strategy for the first one.

(...)

Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure I didn't speak about military strategies.

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18 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure I didn't speak about military strategies.

She also didn't use diplomatic pressure or good empire-building skills or… anything you'd normally call a strategy, and that she could be applying in Westeros but isn't.

But even if you really want to argue that double-crossing the slave merchants in a trade deal was a strategy that she could be using to conquer Westeros, you're still only talking about two out of two cities where she used a clever strategy pre-Meereen, and one out of one in Westeros (maybe even two out of two—was it clever to conquer Dragonstone by landing there after Stannis abandoned it?), so still, what's the difference?

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Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen after having destroyed the tower of the warlocks in Qarth (before starting being stacked in Meereen).

It counts three to me and the way they were done is interesting.

Now, in the shows, it seems to me that D. is just back to pre-Qarth... anyway, this is just my humble opinion.

I'm sure that you have good reasons to think that there is a proper progression in the character in the series or at least one aligned to the books.

 

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Now you're just changing the goalposts, from "before Mereen she conquered every city she passed through" to counting Meereen (which isn't before Meereen) and Qarth (which she didn't conquer).

And I don't even know what your last paragraph means, much less how it's relevant. Neither show!Dany nor book!Dany has ever been a brilliant strategist, and show!Dany in S7 still isn't. That doesn't mean there is or isn't a proper progression in the character or that they are or aren't aligned or whatever, it means that her character progression isn't about her becoming a master strategist, it's about learning what it means to be a good Queen (strategy is only one small part of that—and for most Kings and Queens, it's something you usually get by picking the right advisors and knowing who to trust, not by being better at it than anyone else), and how to integrate her Servant-of-the-People and Dragon-Queen sides together effectively. The show and the books are doing that different, and they both have some flaws in their story, but those flaws aren't demonstrated by the fact that she successfully conquered Astapor but also successfully conquered Casterly Rock.

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No, I'm not changing, it's just that I did not express clearly my message (i.e. I did not clarify what I meant by before Meereen - my mistake). ;-)

Furthermore, I'm not adding Qarth in the count. I'm just including it in the overall approach... but, from the words that you use, it seems to me that you are taking this dialogue too seriously.

If you do not understand my last paragraph is not an issue, it will not affect our lifes. You think that she didn't show a strategical capacity. I think she did and the series is not showing it properly. Again, it's just my humble opinion and I'm sure you have good reason to have a different one. 

Peace and love! :-)

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On 8/5/2017 at 8:34 AM, ERRI8013 said:

Is it just my impression that the show is completely ignoring all the background where we learnt about the strategic skills of D.?

I mean, before Mereen she conquered every city she passed through using smart strategies... we learnt about her being a great conqueror but a not-so-smart ruler... an now it seems to me that in the show she has no idea about what to do and needs Tyrion even to make a single step.

Your impressions are correct about the show.  Dan and Dave rewrote Dany's character and made her less capable in order to please the Dany haters among the fans.  So they made her listen to Tyrion and allowed him  to plan their war against the Lannisters.  Tyrion is a politician, not a general.

Dany is at her best when she follows her own judgement but on the show, D and D turned Tyrion into the voice of reason.   The characters on screen are so deviated from their on page characters that they are not the same.  George really needs to hurry up and release TWOW.

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On 8/6/2017 at 4:08 AM, TyrionFan82 said:

Jorah's another VERY good one. Hopefully she starts winning.

Yes. It looks she may be getting Bronn on her side. Which will be helpful. Bronn is after gold and a castle. He saved Jaimes  life. He will go his separate way after. I wonder if they both get captured. But it will take Tyrion to save him from Dany killing him.

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16 hours ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

Yes. It looks she may be getting Bronn on her side. Which will be helpful. Bronn is after gold and a castle. He saved Jaimes  life. He will go his separate way after. I wonder if they both get captured. But it will take Tyrion to save him from Dany killing him.

Yeah, Bronn'll go whichever way the wind blows but I don't see him being much help. HOPEFULLY the remaining forces bend the knee. I mean how many did she kill? Geez. If I were them I'd be on knees before she finished asking.

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5 hours ago, TyrionFan82 said:

Yeah, Bronn'll go whichever way the wind blows but I don't see him being much help. HOPEFULLY the remaining forces bend the knee. I mean how many did she kill? Geez. If I were them I'd be on knees before she finished asking.

Yes! Bronn follows the gold. Now Dany has the gold. And he gets to reunite with Tyrion who will speak up for him with Dany. Tyrion it very persuasive. So he can get it done.

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