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Only 2 more books?

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49 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Yes and having Jon and Arya jump around as magical wolves, running free as the wind blows, frolicking in flower meadows and having a litter of cubs, is "gritty and realistic" :rolleyes: That's fanfic territory right there. Do they name their cubs Eddard, Catelyn, Brand, Rickon, Robb and Sansa, as well? 

And, just saying in the real world people ending up on a throne of a country that previously had fallen to civil war has happened considerably more often than people having their minds transplanted into animals.

I'll own that the jon and arya is a little fanfic which is why I wouldn't call it a theory but just say it gives a smile to my face. The larger picture that the plans of man all fail in the end is what I enjoy the most as well as the idea of the end of the final book bringing in the beginning of a hypothetical first book long before the Children ala Joyce's Finnegan's Wake which, as I noted earlier, is something which grrm admits directly influences him.

 

The Iron Throne is a thorne in westeros. Since its creation is has brought nothing but injustice and devastation. I would love to see it shattered. As for the real world people ending up on a throne of a country that previously had fallen to civil war, I guess you are right. After all Rome still rules the world, or the Romanov throne...that's still good, and the Qing throne, the Egyptian's, the mongols, the Macedonians.

I see the faceless men as a death cult who are out to bring on an end of times. I think the Doom was a shot at it and that Hardhome was a trial run on some new tech as it were. I think Valar Morghulis is to be taken literally as a mandate and not as a pithy existential statement. I personally would love to see them succeed. But if they don't my money is still on the destruction of all the great houses and the Iron Throne...like Iraq, a British made country patched together with other nations, the framework holding it together made for a huge lack of justice, great violence and constant war.

 

But, as I've said before, this is just my thinking. I am sure whatever George has in store for us, should we ever see it, will be terrific.

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22 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

well I see you are pretty tied into your belief in this nice little clean ending. Disagreements aside here I am sure we can agree that we hope the books come out and one day we will know.

What nice little clean ending though?  Take the end to Robert's Rebellion: Ned loses a father, a brother and a sister and apparently a lover / love interest in Ashara Dayne; Robert loses his ideal woman and ends up locked into a miserable marriage to Cersei and a kingship he is utterly unsuited to.  Sad, bittersweet or absurdly chidish?  Seems pretty realistic to me, elements of sadness and the possibility of happiness - fulfilled for Ned, not for Robert. That feels true to life: Robert hates his and dreams of Lyanna instead of Cersei or being a sellsword king and though he has unimaginable wealth and power he is miserable.  That's realism.

My objection to your "everyone dies" ideal is that GRRM shows the realities of life and that however bad things get, or however for a fleeting moment happiness seems obtainable, life goes on in all it's messy and sometimes happy / sometimes painful course.  I still don't know why you are fixated on a Disney / Aragorn / clean or childish ending: with GRRM that is the last thing we need worry about and we don't need everyone to die to avoid having it.

For the record though: there will be a power vacuum in KL. Dany is Aery's' heir, Jon and (F)Aegon may well be Rhaegar's.  Odds are one of them will take the throne.  That's not Disney, that's the reality of a medieval world and dynastic succession.  Could a Tyrell / Martell / Lannister / Stark / or Stannis take power?  Sure but who would accept them?  That would invite another civil war and we still have a dance of the dragons to come first.

Disagreements about the hypothetical ending aside, yes we can indeed hope the next two/three/four (:huh:) books will come out soon.  Honestly though the delay over TWOW, a book GRRM was sure he could finish by late 2015, then by end 2015, now teased to be ready maybe in 2018 / early 2019 makes me very sceptical about him ever finishing.  The news that he's spending his time writing short stories or side works on Targaryen history shows how much he's struggling to focus on ASOIAF outright.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/07/george-r-r-martin-offers-an-update-on-next-game-of-thrones-book-the-winds-of-winter/

 

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Two more books should be enough, if the two upcoming books are gonna be with the same pace and focus like ASoS. 

But it won't matter actually wheather he needs two, three or fourtyfive hypothetical books, because..well I don't really have to say it, do I?

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54 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I'll own that the jon and arya is a little fanfic which is why I wouldn't call it a theory but just say it gives a smile to my face. The larger picture that the plans of man all fail in the end is what I enjoy the most as well as the idea of the end of the final book bringing in the beginning of a hypothetical first book long before the Children ala Joyce's Finnegan's Wake which, as I noted earlier, is something which grrm admits directly influences him.

 

The Iron Throne is a thorne in westeros. Since its creation is has brought nothing but injustice and devastation. I would love to see it shattered. As for the real world people ending up on a throne of a country that previously had fallen to civil war, I guess you are right. After all Rome still rules the world, or the Romanov throne...that's still good, and the Qing throne, the Egyptian's, the mongols, the Macedonians.

I see the faceless men as a death cult who are out to bring on an end of times. I think the Doom was a shot at it and that Hardhome was a trial run on some new tech as it were. I think Valar Morghulis is to be taken literally as a mandate and not as a pithy existential statement. I personally would love to see them succeed. But if they don't my money is still on the destruction of all the great houses and the Iron Throne...like Iraq, a British made country patched together with other nations, the framework holding it together made for a huge lack of justice, great violence and constant war.

 

But, as I've said before, this is just my thinking. I am sure whatever George has in store for us, should we ever see it, will be terrific.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust?  Men are mortal and fallible indeed so all things do come to an end - but not always violently or unnaturally.  The political power games of the mighty often end in failure or betrayal and everyone suffers greatly in the meantime - the hollownesses of that is the central theme of ASOIAF - but it's not the same as saying either that 1) all the plans of men always fail or 2) mankind will fail.  After all political careers or dynasties or kingdoms come to an end when they are replaced by another.

The struggle for the IT represents the struggle for absolute power or at least for supremacy over other contender's / rivals.  I don't think pre-Targ Westeros was really any different: e.g. the Ironborn had conquered the Riverlands; the Reach and Dorne have a longstanding enmity; and the Starks and Boltons were fighting each other throughout the Age of Heroes until some point in the distant or recent past.  The IT doesn't symbolise something evil that Westeros will be better off without if it can only be liberated from it: it's just one more phase of man's natural instinct to compete for dominance over his neighbours and to accrue as much wealth and power as possible.  Human nature doesn't change and the IT is not the cause of man's conflicts: remove the IT and the flashpoint will be the weakest kingdom (the Riverlands in pre-Targ Westeros), or the wealthiest cities and trading ports - Oldtown and King's Landing, or maybe old and new enmities between Martell and Tyrell or Martell and Lannister, the possibilties are limitless.

I don't think post-colonial issues are a good comparison for Westeros.  The problem with partition lines in the Middle East, Africa and the Indian sub-continent is that they both 1) split apart ethnic or tribal groups and put them under different sometimes alien jurisdictions and 2) put sworn enemies or at least suspicious neighbouring groups within a common jurisdiction with one group able to control all the levers of power and use that to their advantage to the detriment of the other group, sometimes brutally so.  The Targs unified Westeros but they did not put the Crannogmen under the jurisdiction of the Freys, or combine Dorne and The Reach into one administrative unit with the Tyrells holding all the prime offices, controlling the police and setting and collecting taxes.  It's precisely because the Targs were outsiders with no history of invovlement in these dipsutes and feuds that they were able to rise above them and everyone knew it.  Where they did not extinguish a House in conflict, e.g.Gardener, they left the ruling elites in place and nowhere redrew the maps to create the kind of problems ignorant Europeans did.

Honestly I think the IT is here to stay.  Whether it holds any real power or becomes more of a symbolic office like the Holy Roman Emperor in the Middle Ages people are bound to want to claim it because of the potential authority or simply the prestige that it would give them.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

What nice little clean ending though?  Take the end to Robert's Rebellion: Ned loses a father, a brother and a sister and apparently a lover / love interest in Ashara Dayne; Robert loses his ideal woman and ends up locked into a miserable marriage to Cersei and a kingship he is utterly unsuited to.  Sad, bittersweet or absurdly chidish?  Seems pretty realistic to me, elements of sadness and the possibility of happiness - fulfilled for Ned, not for Robert. That feels true to life: Robert hates his and dreams of Lyanna instead of Cersei or being a sellsword king and though he has unimaginable wealth and power he is miserable.  That's realism.

My objection to your "everyone dies" ideal is that GRRM shows the realities of life and that however bad things get, or however for a fleeting moment happiness seems obtainable, life goes on in all it's messy and sometimes happy / sometimes painful course.  I still don't know why you are fixated on a Disney / Aragorn / clean or childish ending: with GRRM that is the last thing we need worry about and we don't need everyone to die to avoid having it.

For the record though: there will be a power vacuum in KL. Dany is Aery's' heir, Jon and (F)Aegon may well be Rhaegar's.  Odds are one of them will take the throne.  That's not Disney, that's the reality of a medieval world and dynastic succession.  Could a Tyrell / Martell / Lannister / Stark / or Stannis take power?  Sure but who would accept them?  That would invite another civil war and we still have a dance of the dragons to come first.

Disagreements about the hypothetical ending aside, yes we can indeed hope the next two/three/four (:huh:) books will come out soon.  Honestly though the delay over TWOW, a book GRRM was sure he could finish by late 2015, then by end 2015, now teased to be ready maybe in 2018 / early 2019 makes me very sceptical about him ever finishing.  The news that he's spending his time writing short stories or side works on Targaryen history shows how much he's struggling to focus on ASOIAF outright.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/07/george-r-r-martin-offers-an-update-on-next-game-of-thrones-book-the-winds-of-winter/

 

I can understand your trepidation with my everyone dies (or, more accurately, is killed....doom of valyria 2.0). That said, I obviously like my idea. Either way, I have no inside info nor the talent that grrm has so I am hopeful to see whatever it is. You will need to make some kind of sense of the faceless men though. That they are just a normal group of assassin monks is way beyond the scope. I do't think you and I will ever resolve our issues, but I hope George does. YOur fear about he may never finish is a well founded one and I do tend to agree. Even if he got WOW out today, took no breaks and got ADOS out in the 5 year time frame we have come to expect he would be 73. Obviously he isn't getting it out today. If he got it out on 1/2019 when he was 70 and spend a year relaxing...I mean, all men are mortal and we are cutting things awfully close. Thanks for the link and interesting chat. While we don't see eye to eye, it is always a fun way to while the day

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I can't see it finishing in two books while being satisfying/consistent with the others. Even the show needed three more seasons to wrap up where book 5 left off and they've had to genocide half the cast and make the previous season ridiculously paced to achieve it so far.

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8 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I'll own that the jon and arya is a little fanfic which is why I wouldn't call it a theory but just say it gives a smile to my face. The larger picture that the plans of man all fail in the end is what I enjoy the most as well as the idea of the end of the final book bringing in the beginning of a hypothetical first book long before the Children ala Joyce's Finnegan's Wake which, as I noted earlier, is something which grrm admits directly influences him.

Still stark kids living on as Wolves and frolicking through the forest is nothing short of ridiculous.

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The Iron Throne is a thorne in westeros. Since its creation is has brought nothing but injustice and devastation. I would love to see it shattered.

So the Iron Thorne being shattered isn't about "Gritty and Realistic" it's about YOUR wishfullfilment. Okay then. The Iron Throne united 8 warring nations and keeps the Iron Born under the heel they need to keep them from raping and enslaving everybody else.

Quote

As for the real world people ending up on a throne of a country that previously had fallen to civil war, I guess you are right. After all Rome still rules the world, or the Romanov throne...that's still good, and the Qing throne, the Egyptian's, the mongols, the Macedonians.

Henry Tudor, the Glorious Revolution, Napoleon, the Bourbon Restoration, the various times the an Egyptian dynasty DID restore the Two Kingdoms, the reunification of China after the warring states period the Meji Restoration... the Beginning of the Romanov Dynasty. I never said it always happens, only that it has frequently happened in history.

Now list the occurrences where people ended up being trapped inside animals. .

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10 hours ago, YOVMO said:

The Iron Throne is a thorne in westeros. Since its creation is has brought nothing but injustice and devastation.

The violence in Westeros was reduced significantly by Aegon's Conquest.

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18 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I can understand your trepidation with my everyone dies (or, more accurately, is killed....doom of valyria 2.0). That said, I obviously like my idea. Either way, I have no inside info nor the talent that grrm has so I am hopeful to see whatever it is. You will need to make some kind of sense of the faceless men though. That they are just a normal group of assassin monks is way beyond the scope. I do't think you and I will ever resolve our issues, but I hope George does. YOur fear about he may never finish is a well founded one and I do tend to agree. Even if he got WOW out today, took no breaks and got ADOS out in the 5 year time frame we have come to expect he would be 73. Obviously he isn't getting it out today. If he got it out on 1/2019 when he was 70 and spend a year relaxing...I mean, all men are mortal and we are cutting things awfully close. Thanks for the link and interesting chat. While we don't see eye to eye, it is always a fun way to while the day

IDK about the faceless men.  Valyria was sitting on a the Westeros equivalent of the pacific ring of fire, or at least a series of active volcanos with a destructive potential to put Krakatoa or Santorini to shame.  And the big one struck.  This being a world of fantasy and magic there is most likely more than mother nature at work here. Ditto the Broken Arm of Dorne and the Neck - unless the hammer of the waters is merely an attempt to explain rising sea levels in a more dramatic way or one that the less scientific Westerosi could imagine.  But The Others and the Long Night seem to be a predominantly Westerosi phenomenon, there being no Wall or Night's Watch in Essos, so the link between former Valyrian slaves and Braavos and the impending War for the Dawn seems unclear to me.  How old is Braavos / the Doom of Valyria and doesn't the original Long Night predate it?  The Faceless Men certainly don't appear as actors in any of the stories about the Long Night and The Last Hero. 

We have our own versions foretelling the end of the world whether Revelations, Ragnorok or Nostradamus's predictions (update every few years for the next reinterpretation) though admittedly we don't have a cult that actively seeks death.  The Faceless Men look like a band of magical assassins who seek death, even worshipping it in a way, but I think GRRM is influenced here by the actual assassins, a medieval sect that specialised in assassinating their enemies' leaders and where the name is derived from.  This being ASOIAF a dollop of magic is added for drama and colourful visualization.

TBF my doubts about GRRM finishing stretch back even a little bit further.  There was one scene in the show which I mustn't mention that GRRM liked and said that he was impressed by the actor/actress [changed to obfuscate character as much as possible!] and that this had given him ideas that he might do something more with that person in the books.  That an author was being influenced on what to include in his work by a tv adaptation of that work struck me as pretty depressing and a huge red flag about the state of the unpublished / unwritten story.

Likewise.  It's good to hear different opinions, even if we lean in different directions. :cheers:

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On 9/12/2017 at 1:54 PM, White Ravens said:

I know you are just making a joke but what is it with readers resenting the descriptions of food?  For me, they are a part of the rich world building that GRRM has done and they help to create an immersive experience.

I don't want to take anything away from the way George writes, I agree, he does a magnificent job transporting you into the world he has created, but the question was how could he get it all into 2 books, and that is a legit way and reason.  There probably won't be as many feasts now that Winter is here.

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On ‎12‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:31 AM, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

It should be more than 2 books if Doran's bastard travels to Sothoryos in TWOW.

I think you meant Oberyn's bastards

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On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

IDK about the faceless men.

Well, to be fair we are all really just guessing. I am not going to war with my readings...whether I believe them or not...only spitballing as best I can and reading others.

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

  Valyria was sitting on a the Westeros equivalent of the pacific ring of fire, or at least a series of active volcanos with a destructive potential to put Krakatoa or Santorini to shame.  And the big one struck.  This being a world of fantasy and magic there is most likely more than mother nature at work here. Ditto the Broken Arm of Dorne and the Neck - unless the hammer of the waters is merely an attempt to explain rising sea levels in a more dramatic way or one that the less scientific Westerosi could imagine.  But The Others and the Long Night seem to be a predominantly Westerosi phenomenon, there being no Wall or Night's Watch in Essos, so the link between former Valyrian slaves and Braavos and the impending War for the Dawn seems unclear to me.  How old is Braavos / the Doom of Valyria and doesn't the original Long Night predate it? 

The long night, yes. The doom...no.

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

The Faceless Men certainly don't appear as actors in any of the stories about the Long Night and The Last Hero. 

This isn't so much what I think is going on. I feel that the FM have figured out a way to use the long night and all that comes with it as a weapon. In the several hundred years that they have been trying to put an end to humanity this seems like a really good one and done solution.

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

We have our own versions foretelling the end of the world whether Revelations, Ragnorok or Nostradamus's predictions (update every few years for the next reinterpretation) though admittedly we don't have a cult that actively seeks death.  The Faceless Men look like a band of magical assassins who seek death,

Sure..magical assassins...but keep in mind that they aren't merely assasins. There is a religious connotation to it. For them, killing outside the confines of the mandate is stealing a life....I guess the part that really has me hung up here is motto Valar Morghulis. That this sounds like a pithy, deep existential kind of thing that cool assassins say to each other and as such gets glanced over by the reader that there is a really serious mission statement that All Men MUST die just strikes me as fitting very well.

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

even worshipping it in a way, but I think GRRM is influenced here by the actual assassins, a medieval sect that specialised in assassinating their enemies' leaders and where the name is derived from.  This being ASOIAF a dollop of magic is added for drama and colourful visualization.

Again, there is no way to demonstratively argue against this, but that there is room enough to ask a question seems telling to me. The meeting of the secret servants, things like Varys being noted as sleeping on a concrete slab (like FM) despite that by all outward appearances he is surely a man for feathered beds and silken sheets and he has some cock and bull story about his back, the work that went into getting arya, a powerful telepath, to and through training, that JH as looking for the book the death of dragons at the citadel.....I am not a raving lunatic and in no way want to scream this is the way it is and no other explanation is possible, but that the faceless men have a much larger roll to play in our story, that this roll has to do with dragons, that they believe that death is a gift and that they have a beef with Targaryens dating back to before the doom.....it all points to something...something I do not know what as they say. The ice and fire lines are drawn very clearly. Targs, Dragons, R'Holler, Fire Magic on one side and The Others, the Wizards in the house of the undying, The Great Other and, the FM who are begun as a cult after years of being tortured by Valyrian fire maic and dragons. 

I really think that packed into the chapter of the meeting with the sercret servers where arya is describing the attendees is something very important and, to my best ability, this is the guess that makes the most sense to me. 

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

TBF my doubts about GRRM finishing stretch back even a little bit further.  There was one scene in the show which I mustn't mention that GRRM liked and said that he was impressed by the actor/actress [changed to obfuscate character as much as possible!] and that this had given him ideas that he might do something more with that person in the books.  That an author was being influenced on what to include in his work by a tv adaptation of that work struck me as pretty depressing and a huge red flag about the state of the unpublished / unwritten story.

Red Flag indeed

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Likewise.  It's good to hear different opinions, even if we lean in different directions. :cheers:

Same!

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