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Jon's poor communications skills

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Jon's people skills are bad.  He's desperate for help and approached Dany with arrogance.  He didn't bother to bring any other witness.  He didn't bother to describe the white walkers.  He wants to borrow Dany's Dothraki, Unsulied, Dragons, and dragonglass right after asserting himself as the King in the North.  Which is actually a form of rebellion.  To me, Dany came across as the more mature person.  She gave him part of what he asked for, dragonglass. 

 

 

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Jon is a simpleton.  He's not sophisticated.  He's not really fit to rule.  Jon is more like a decent quarterback of the team but he's not cut out to be the coach and even less cut out to be the owner of the team.  It is true that his communication skills are poor.

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Jon isn't a diplomat or a salesman but realistically- how can a person describe the army of the dead to a person who hasn't seen it? Especially when it's thousands of miles away. He needed to talk about more of what the army can do. He needed to describe how the Night King raised his arms and the bodies of slewn soldiers magically became soldiers of the dead. 

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I agree... But still everyone complained about Daenerys being arrogant..

She gave him dragonglass...

She asked for forgiveness about the excecutions of Brandon and Rickard Stark...

She said she will help him after she take the Iron Throne, if he just bend the knee... She didnt even know what is beyond the wall...

BUt still Jon is right....

This topic has only 3 answers while the "Dany poor strategic skills" has 16...

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He did bring Davos who confirms the story.

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29 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

I agree... But still everyone complained about Daenerys being arrogant..

She gave him dragonglass...

She asked for forgiveness about the excecutions of Brandon and Rickard Stark...

She said she will help him after she take the Iron Throne, if he just bend the knee... She didnt even know what is beyond the wall...

BUt still Jon is right....

This topic has only 3 answers while the "Dany poor strategic skills" has 16...

She appeared arrogant since as soon as she met Jon, she took his weapons and his ship and then/ with him weaponless and without a way of leaving/ asked him to bend the knee. Jon showed some real hutzpah when he wouldn't- but he was also saved from answering the request by the bad news about the battle. But now I think she's just not that savvy in being a leader

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16 minutes ago, WCPhan said:

She appeared arrogant since as soon as she met Jon, she took his weapons and his ship and then/ with him weaponless and without a way of leaving/ asked him to bend the knee. Jon showed some real hutzpah when he wouldn't- but he was also saved from answering the request by the bad news about the battle. But now I think she's just not that savvy in being a leader

Jon had to explain her about the threat beyond the Wall... He asks her to bring her army and her dragons to fight some creatures that are believed to be heroes from legends and fairytales..

If he truly wanted to convience her he should bend the knee. If the White Walkers are a matter of life and death, as he claims, then why refuse to bend the knee.. He could promise to bend the knee after they win (if) the WW..

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1 hour ago, messem said:

He did bring Davos who confirms the story.

When did Davos see a white walker or a wight? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Styl7 said:

I agree... But still everyone complained about Daenerys being arrogant..

She gave him dragonglass...

She asked for forgiveness about the excecutions of Brandon and Rickard Stark...

She said she will help him after she take the Iron Throne, if he just bend the knee... She didnt even know what is beyond the wall...

BUt still Jon is right....

This topic has only 3 answers while the "Dany poor strategic skills" has 16...

Most didn't.  The show "haters" are very much in the minority but they are by far the most prolific posters on this forum and they will do their utmost to have a pop at pretty much everything the show does now it's not using source material.  The easiest way to tell is simply the rate the episode thread.  It's usually full of negative posts and yet the actual poll tells a completely different story, the story of the silent contented majority.  Of course what is ridiculous is the people who hate the show and yet still watch it week in, week out.

Dany wasn't being arrogant.  She was being what anyone in her position would do.  The same people complaining about her arrogance would have complained if she had been meek and said "OK Jon, you don't have to bend the knee.  Let's share this land!".

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24 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

Jon had to explain her about the threat beyond the Wall... He asks her to bring her army and her dragons to fight some creatures that are believed to be heroes from legends and fairytales..

If he truly wanted to convience her he should bend the knee. If the White Walkers are a matter of life and death, as he claims, then why refuse to bend the knee.. He could promise to bend the knee after they win (if) the WW..

I think the reason is that if he bends the knee, then he must abide by her calls to war against Cersai- even if that means abandoning the north to do it. Jon will not ignore the north to do it.

Thus, simply bending the knee isn't an option 

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2 hours ago, WCPhan said:

She appeared arrogant since as soon as she met Jon, she took his weapons and his ship and then/ with him weaponless and without a way of leaving/ asked him to bend the knee. Jon showed some real hutzpah when he wouldn't- but he was also saved from answering the request by the bad news about the battle. But now I think she's just not that savvy in being a leader

You know what's illogical?  The north picking Jon as its leader.  That butthead hasn't won any battle.  Stannis won the battle at the wall for him.  That was a Stannis victory.  Jon lost his head during the battle of the bastards and threw all semblances of strategy out the window when he charged the field.  Petyr Baelish won that victory.  That was Littlefinger's victory.  Jon's election makes no sense to begin with.  Anyhow, the north is part of the kingdom of westeros.  Those idiots in the north had no right to vote for their own king. 

Jon was already in the middle of a rebellion.  It was correct to take away his weapons.  By definition, he was already hostile.  There can be no king in the north.  If someone had approached Tywin with that attitude their heads would roll and hit the pavement.  Jon was in the wrong from the start.

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3 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You know what's illogical?  The north picking Jon as its leader. 

Yes, it is. And that's the problem, and Jon knows it. If he bends the knee to Dany, he can't count on his irrational followers going along with him. They proclaimed him King in the North, not Warden of the North for a foreign Queen, and they're so stubborn they might decide to ditch him for someone else who will try to fight without allies to preserve Northern independence.

But I don't understand why Jon hasn't tried to explain this to Dany. By not explaining anything, he gives her the impression that he's just being stubborn or prideful, which means that she thinks she has to argue him out of his pride, which is pointless.

But, even given that, she's still being stupid too. If she doesn't believe in the threat, there's really no reason to listen to him at all. But if she does, then she has to fight the Dead. Even if he doesn't bend the knee, what is she going to do, let all of Westeros die?

The sensible move for Dany is to offer to put off the question of Northern sovereignty until they've defeated the Night King. Which Jon should accept in a heartbeat.

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Here's what Jon tells Dany to try to convince her:

  • The Army of the Dead!
  • I've seen them!
  • But the Army of the Dead!
  • But the Army of the Dead!

Here's what he could tell Dany to convince her of the threat:

  • What the Army of the Dead actually is.
  • Why an army of 10000 wights is much worse than an army of 10000 soldiers—because anyone who dies gets raised to fight on the other side, so they keep growing instead of shrinking.
  • There are thousands of witnesses besides him.
  • Wildlings agreed to bend the knee to him, and to man the Wall, neither of which they'd ever do in a million years if the threat wasn't real.
  • The Northern Lords unanimously agreed to let the Wildlings man the Wall, which they'd never do if the threat weren't real.
  • Send a raven to the Wall—any castle on the Wall—and they'll confirm the story.
  • Ask a Red Priest. Melisandre had visions, and she was sent to Westeros to fight this threat.
  • Fly there and take a look for yourself. If an infantry army can march halfway across Westeros, fight a battle, and return in two weeks, surely a dragon can go about twice that far as a day trip.

No wonder it doesn't work.

Lots of fans seem to think the right thing to do is point out that she rides a dragon, fought sorcerers, etc. But that's like saying "You believe in zeppelins and in Jesus Christ, so why don't you believe in Humbaba from the Epic of Gilgamesh?" To the viewer, dragons and witches are obviously fantastic things, on the same scale as wights. But to Dany, or anyone else in-universe, dragons are a major part of modern history, and all the other stuff is part of the mainstream beliefs of society, while wights are an ancient myth from 8000+ years ago.

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4 hours ago, WCPhan said:

She appeared arrogant since as soon as she met Jon, she took his weapons and his ship and then/ with him weaponless and without a way of leaving/ asked him to bend the knee. Jon showed some real hutzpah when he wouldn't- but he was also saved from answering the request by the bad news about the battle. But now I think she's just not that savvy in being a leader

i agree. didn't she say i will burn you with my dragons if u didnt bend the knee? 

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Both came across as extremely poor to me in that scene (and I'm not just talking about acting).

Jon

- If you're not there to bend the knee, why did you go in person? Send an emissary; that is what they are for.

- If you're not going to bend the knee, give reasons why. Tell Daenerys that you aren't sure if the North and Vale would follow you in your decision to kneel, that they might just choose somebody else to rule them. Tell her that if she helps them fight the army of the dead, they would surely be glad to bend the knee to her.

- Propose an alliance through marriage (even if it makes me want to vomit) - your subjects might find the idea of a Northerner co-ruling on the Iron Throne more palatable.

- Describe the army of the dead. Talk about what they have done, what they can do. Talk about Mance and Stannis and the Wildlings manning the Wall. Make an effort to convince her.

Daenerys

- Ask questions about the army of the dead if you believe Jon even a little. You, more than any other character (besides Bran), have interacted with the magical element - you are immune to fire and hatched 3 dragons from petrified eggs. I know dragons are recent history, but fire immunity and birthing dragons from stone are not. Ask what they can do, why you should be concerned about it etc.

- Don't bring up bizarrely personal stuff in conversation with a stranger when it has no relevance. Jon doesn't need to know (and frankly he probably doesn't care) about your marriage to Drogo, your trials in the East etc. 

- Maybe allow the question of kneeling to wait until you're sitting on the throne and the army of the dead is stopped? Even Stannis realised that people are much more willing to bend the knee when you help them (i.e. the Mormonts).

- Propose marriage to Jon in order to get the North to kneel. That's why you left Daario in Meereen right? So you'd be free to marry in Westeros for the purposes of forging an alliance.

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17 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

- Maybe allow the question of kneeling to wait until you're sitting on the throne and the army of the dead is stopped? Even Stannis realised that people are much more willing to bend the knee when you help them (i.e. the Mormonts).

This is the one that bothers me the most. I can maybe see Jon or Dany not thinking of this possibility, but I was sure Tyrion was going to offer the solution, and they could spend the rest of mid-S7 talking about dragonglass and the evidence or lack thereof that Jon isn't crazy, instead of going around and around on the bending-the-knee question.

Even if D&D didn't actually want to use this solution, they could have at least had, say, Davos bring it up and Jon explain that it isn't possible, instead of pretending that it's so inconceivable nobody would even consider it.

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Jon is no nonsense. He speaks with actions. He was never a fan of diplomats nor do he care for all this diplomacy crap, nor was he trained like his "siblings". Also with what Jon been through and what he saw, he has no time to put on a PPT to Dany. He know the clock is ticking .

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I agree with Jon being a poor communicator and I could lay it at the feet of the writers. How about when Jon went to Hardhome, and was asked "Where's Mance?"  Jon just says "I killed hIm'."  I sit there thinking ....are you stupid, Jon?  Luckily Tormund cleared up the issue.  So it could be with the writers.

But- BUT we still do not know Jon's value to the story.  There is something that is yet to be made clear to us, and I think it is because it is not clear yet to Jon.  I am not certain it is just his bloodline, I think there is something more.  Is he the Last Hero?  Azor Ahai?  Is he meant to do something wonderful, then die again?  So, as a show viewer, I constantly have to wait until Jon figures something out.  We are getting blips and drops but I think there is something much bigger, that is right in front of us, that we cannot see yet.  

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It's true. Jon went there asking for Dany's help but not offering to give her anything in exchange, except for the assurance that if she didn't help him then she and her followers would be killed by the Army of the Dead eventually as well, which he could offer no material proof of.

And he is in fact wrong in thinking that Cersei is just a minor nuisance compared to the White Walkers. She would gladly sabotage any alliance against them.

What annoys me about it is that Book!Jon is more savvy and better with words than this.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness

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