[Spoilers] EP704 Discussion

[Lurid Jester]

7 hours ago, Grand Maestress said:

Jaime's sinking scene with his hands open seemed to imply to me that the thing dragging him down into the depths was his fake hand of gold. We were reminded of the hand earlier in the episode as well - when Jaime said he couldn't use the scorpion with one hand. 

The problem with that is if his gold hand was dragging him to the bottom... he wouldn't be dropping with both hands outstretched above him. 

His armor is dragging him down with the bulk of the weight around his torso and shoulders.  it weighs a hell of a lot more than a gold hand. 

[hallam]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

One nitpick I would have though, or maybe not a nitpick so much as a question; how much of her fleet is left at Dragonstone? I'm surprised she had enough ships left to ferry the Dothraki considering the loss of the Iron Fleet and the ships her Unsullied took

The Dothraki rode from Dragonstone to KL. They would only need to cross the sea by boat and they would not have committed their entire fleet to Casterly Rock. Dragonstone is closer to KL than Highgarden the Dothraki are fresh and they are on horseback. It is completely predictable that they would be able to cut off Jamie's army.

[fire&blood]

18 hours ago, Booknerd2 said:

Syrio would be so proud.

Yes, yes he would So would J'aqen. She is a total badass.

[hallam]

4 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Jaime really should have died in this episode though. If he was going to charge Drogon like that he should have been killed. The show decided to save him at least twice in this sequence when he really should have died. I don't want Jaime to die, but I don't understand how the show that prided itself on breaking fantasy norms, not saving the hero at the very last second did it twice with Jaime within a few seconds and with Bronn as well. It was my biggest problem with this episode. 

I am genuinely uncertain as to whether Jamie is alive or not. It seems most likely to me that he is dead. This was the shortest episode they have done. If Jamie was coming back, they would show him captured. Another thing that makes me think he is dead is Tyrion's line, 'you stupid bastard'. Charging a wounded dragon armed only with a spear is really stupid.

Having him survive two near death experiences and die in a third along with Bron trying to save him does seem like a suitable exit for him. It also means Cersei has gained the iron throne at the cost of everything she ever cared about. Her husband, children and entire family are dead except for Tyrion who is trying to kill her after she tried to kill him. 

It did seem very likely to me that at the start of the season that Jamie dies in episode 6. It would not surprise me if Cersei dies as well at this point. Seems like they are clearing the decks for the wall falling at the end of episode 7 and the fight with the WWs. The only wildcard left is littlefinger.

[Illiterati]

28 minutes ago, hallam said:

The Dothraki rode from Dragonstone to KL. They would only need to cross the sea by boat and they would not have committed their entire fleet to Casterly Rock. Dragonstone is closer to KL than Highgarden the Dothraki are fresh and they are on horseback. It is completely predictable that they would be able to cut off Jamie's army.

This is exactly what happened.  I'm not sure the writers did a good job of conveying the location.  They did mention needing to make it through the Blackwater bog (or whatever exact term Tully used), which gave me a sense they were near to KL, but I think they could have made it more clear for the audience.  "We should get through and be in KL by tomorrow midday" or something to that effect.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Illiterati

[Illiterati]

12 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am genuinely uncertain as to whether Jamie is alive or not. It seems most likely to me that he is dead. This was the shortest episode they have done. If Jamie was coming back, they would show him captured. Another thing that makes me think he is dead is Tyrion's line, 'you stupid bastard'. Charging a wounded dragon armed only with a spear is really stupid.

Having him survive two near death experiences and die in a third along with Bron trying to save him does seem like a suitable exit for him. It also means Cersei has gained the iron throne at the cost of everything she ever cared about. Her husband, children and entire family are dead except for Tyrion who is trying to kill her after she tried to kill him. 

It did seem very likely to me that at the start of the season that Jamie dies in episode 6. It would not surprise me if Cersei dies as well at this point. Seems like they are clearing the decks for the wall falling at the end of episode 7 and the fight with the WWs. The only wildcard left is littlefinger.

Nah, if they showed him captured, they lose their cliffhanger.

[Lee Chapman]

39 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am genuinely uncertain as to whether Jamie is alive or not. 

Having him survive two near death experiences and die in a third along with Bron trying to save him does seem like a suitable exit for him.

Having Bron protect him from the fire strongly suggest to me that Jamie will not be killed in that particular sequence.

Otherwise leave Bron out of it and he is burnt to a crisp by the Dragon.  

[MissBoss]

19 hours ago, plectrum said:

Dany going full Mad Queen.  Or trying to anyways, and Jon talking her down.  Interesting dynamic there.  I wonder if she doesn't propose marriage to seal the pact between the North and the rest of the kingdoms, and he tempers her worst impulses.  Call me crazy, but she DID send Da'ario away so that she could marry again, and he IS the key to one of the kingdoms.

Hell yeah!!!!!

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, hallam said:

The Dothraki rode from Dragonstone to KL. They would only need to cross the sea by boat and they would not have committed their entire fleet to Casterly Rock. Dragonstone is closer to KL than Highgarden the Dothraki are fresh and they are on horseback. It is completely predictable that they would be able to cut off Jamie's army.

It wasn't cutting off Jamie's army I was confused about, I agree that makes sense in terms of where they would strike. It was the ferrying from Dragonstone to the mainland I was unsure of, because I was under the impression Dany had lost pretty much her entire fleet with the attacks by Euron  against the Dornish and Unsullied. But I guess as you say, ferrying the short distance to the mainland could be managed fairly quickly with only a few ships.

[Astromech]

5 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It wasn't cutting off Jamie's army I was confused about, I agree that makes sense in terms of where they would strike. It was the ferrying from Dragonstone to the mainland I was unsure of, because I was under the impression Dany had lost pretty much her entire fleet with the attacks by Euron  against the Dornish and Unsullied. But I guess as you say, ferrying the short distance to the mainland could be managed fairly quickly with only a few ships.

Why do you think the Dothraki took Jon's boat? And they got Theon's this episode. That would only be several hundred trips to and from Dragonstone to the mainland.

5 hours ago, Ser Sinister said:

Assuming any of the dragons survives (and with them turning the Lannister faction into the GoT equivalent of Alexander the Great, that's not a given), but what chance do White Walkers have against a dragon? They're a completely ground-based army. Granted, we haven't seen any of their magic capabilities, other than creating an undead army, but is there anything that would lead us to believe they have some sort of dragon-freezing magic? Is that why the show is making Dany so adamant against helping Jon Snow? Because it would be pretty much "fly 3 dragons...burn entire army of White Walkers...be home for dinner"?

Or??? Do they have undead dragons?!?!? How awesome would that be???

That was my first though when Qyburn took Cersei to see the dragon skeletons. The disappointment when he showed her the scorpion. Was really hoping for a dracolich.

[nara]

Sorry if this is a double post. Having technical issues.

random thoughts:

One of saddest parts about emotionless Bran is that in AGOT he is described as so likable that Ned and Cat think that taking him to KL can help build a bridge between Robb and Joffrey, who hated each other immediately. He was also more diplomatic than Robb when left in charge of Winterfell and loving to Old Nan and Hodor. The change is very dramatic.

Were Tyrion's conflicted feelings at the battle foreshadowing of the treason for love? Will he betray Dany for Jaime?

I had thought Tyrion would be stuck in Dragonstone, but now that he has teleported to KL, will they tease us about valonquar, Jaime vs.Tyrion?

 

[hallam]

45 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It wasn't cutting off Jamie's army I was confused about, I agree that makes sense in terms of where they would strike. It was the ferrying from Dragonstone to the mainland I was unsure of, because I was under the impression Dany had lost pretty much her entire fleet with the attacks by Euron  against the Dornish and Unsullied. But I guess as you say, ferrying the short distance to the mainland could be managed fairly quickly with only a few ships.

They don't have to go very far. They can make multiple trips.

It would be logical to billet the majority of the Dothraki on the mainland in any case. Remember Waterloo? Wellington's cavalry were scattered because each horse requires feed and they have to be spread out. They used to have one forager per horse to collect food. So it would be illogical to put them on dragonstone where there isn't any food.

[HexMachina]

42 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Why do you think the Dothraki took Jon's boat? And they got Theon's this episode. That would only be several hundred trips to and from Dragonstone to the mainland.

That was my first though when Qyburn took Cersei to see the dragon skeletons. The disappointment when he showed her the scorpion. Was really hoping for a dracolich.

Well, I was envisioning more than 2 boats   See, this is why Dragonstone should have been populated still, they could have recommissioned fishing vessels and such  

Edited August 7, 2017 by HelenaExMachina

[hallam]

6 minutes ago, nara said:

One of saddest parts about emotionless Bran is that in AGOT he is described as so likable that Ned and Cat think that taking him to KL can help build a bridge between Robb and Joffrey, who hated each other immediately. He was also more diplomatic than Robb when left in charge of Winterfell and loving to Old Nan and Hodor. The change is very dramatic.

I get rather fed up of folk complaining that X is bad acting because Y isn't like that. No, Bran has become all knowing, he isn't fully human any more. So the the directors have made him somewhat autistic.

The first three eyed crow turned into a tree, remember?

[nara]

7 minutes ago, hallam said:

I get rather fed up of folk complaining that X is bad acting because Y isn't like that. No, Bran has become all knowing, he isn't fully human any more. So the the directors have made him somewhat autistic.

The first three eyed crow turned into a tree, remember?

I'm not sure why you interpreted my comment as complaining about acting, but it was not about that. It was about the character Bran becoming emotionless. I believe we can all agree on that, right? 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

They took care of the ship problem. Thee was a line of dialogue. 

Tyrion says to Dany in Dragonstone's war room: "We still have just enough ships to get the Dothraki to the mainland." Done. 

For the show, this episode is actually very impressive for logistics. The Lannister army is very drawn out, as huge companies of soldiers are when marching. Recall Jaime's brief exchange with Tarly. That's how the Dothraki got the drop on them.

If it were a set-piece battle, with tens of thousands of spearmen drawn up in formation several ranks deep, the unarmoured Dothraki would have been slaughtered. Dany actually did EXACTLY what works best: use her superior mobility to hit them unprepared, use the dragon to open up huge holes in their shield wall, the Dothraki charge through, and murder wildly in the chaos. 

When you have mobility, speed, and air superiority, this is flawless strategy. 

Step 2: burn the Iron Fleet. It will be a cakewalk. And put some god damned armour on!! 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

6 minutes ago, nara said:

I'm not sure why you interpreted my comment as complaining about acting, but it was not about that. It was about the character Bran becoming emotionless. I believe we can all agree on that, right? 

Bran's scenes actually were super sad. He gave up his life to become this distant god. He cannot fall in love, or be a warrior, or even remember what it's like to WANT thise things. That is a sacrifice. That is a fucking tragedy. 

Also I loved him meeting Arya. Bran is now actually no one, in a manner of speaking. She got her identity back, he gave his away. It was poetic and sad. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Jon Ice-Eyes

[HexMachina]

I understand the point they are trying to make with Bran's emotionless state, but I don't really buy it. There was little indication of his detachment when he was North of the Wall, especially with Meera and Benjen. I also didn't get the impression from Bloodraven that he was completely detached and emotionless either. I suppose the latter could be chalked up to age, with Bloodraven being far older when he joined the Weirnet, but I'm still not entirely convinced the show has earned Bran's new found Zen mode

[The Bear]

Jaime is definitely going to survive, they will make a much bigger deal of his death when it eventually happens. I doubt he's even going to be captured, honestly. Somehow they'll drift downstream and make it out without being caught. I guess plot armor doesn't weigh too much,

I honestly believe that Jaime will be instrumental in Cersei's demise (they're certainly not killing Jaime without him turning on her), and the reason they left out the valonqar prophecy is because they want it to be a massive surprise. Also, would have been tricky to explain the meaning of the word valonqar without Cersei's inner monologue.

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-06 at 9:29 PM, Holly Macaroni said:

Great clairvoyance shown here by the two last Targaryens:

Jon somehow knew those drawings were made by the CotF, and knew how to interpret them

Dany somehow recognized those drawings as being White Walkers

Presumably, both had read stories about bothCotF and WW as kids. And kids stories generally come with illustrations.