387 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, StepStark said:

Fundamental part of my criticism? Where did you get that idea? That was no part of my criticism at all. In this entire discussion I didn't compare the show with the books, not only because it's not the subject, but also because it's not needed. The show is so stupid that I don't need to compare it to the books to show how stupid it is.

And why would I compare a masterpiece like ASOIAF with a terrible fanfic that is GOT? Do you even realize the difference in quality between the two? The books are by far the best fantasy of modern times, possibly the only fantasy that elevated itself so much above the genre that it's legitimately considered a high-quality drama and also a social study and political intrigue. The show is written by two guys who think that abandoning Casterley Rock and leaving it to the enemy can be a brilliant strategic move by the Lannisters. That is a difference in class! Abandoning Casterley Rock is just monumentally nonsensical, nothing even remotely as ridiculous can be found in the books - and that's only one of the sea of examples of the show's utter stupidity. So why the hell would I even compare that absurdity to something as good as ASOIAF?

That Benioff and Weiss have failed to remain true the project of the books is an understatement, as big as they come. They keep failing over and over again to remain true even to basic logic.

Sorry but how can we have a discussion if you write something like this? Did you watch the scene at all? She beat Jaime easily, it was possibly Brienne's easiest fight in the entire show. It was ridiculous of course, but at that moment D&D needed Brienne to be this amazing and unstoppable fighter so she was. Now they need Arya to be amazing and unstoppable fighter and she is, even better than Brienne. It's all just random, just serving what D&D's childish story needs at any given moment and nothing else. If you need to misinterpret it as much as you just did, just in order to make some sense out of it, then do it, it's your right, but I have no desire to take part in any of it.

We didn't see it actually. You "saw" it, probably the same way you "saw" that Brienne didn't radically outmatch Jaime, but that's just your reading into it. You're conveniently ignoring the sad truth that Arya's training in Braavos served just two things: 1) to show Arya's determination, and 2) to show how superior Waif is to Arya. And it's fair to say that point number 2 was much more emphasized, because at that point D&D needed Waif to be the big bad antagonist because in their simplistic understanding of the storytelling that's what Arya's arc in Braavos needed to be dramatic. Arya's "continuous improvement" you mention is not really an improvement, unless you think that learning (through hard beating) that occasionally you can block the opponent's strike is something that actually merits screen-time in a show that supposedly has barely enough time to cover all of its storylines. And not to mention that at you're misinterpreting again, because Arya managed to hit Waif just once, to which Waif responded by delivering her the hardest beating of them all.

So no, there was no progress, because progress was never the point of Arya's "training" in Braavos. Aside from Arya's determination, which was shown a little, it was all about Waif's superiority, which D&D hoped will make for a bigger payoff at the end when Arya finally overcomes it. And it was a "payoff" of epic proportions, because their final showdown was universally criticized as pure rubbish.

But now you conveniently want to see some progress of Arya in Braavos. Fine, show it to the rest of us, find any Braavos scene which can be seen as Arya's progress in a way that fighting progress is usually and logically defined, and then post a link to that scene so we can analyze it. Because sorry, but I have no intention of discussing your misinterpretations any more. Both of us probably have smarting things to do with our time.

You are comparing the books and the show even as you say you are not.  Fine, you love the books, hate the show.  De hustings &c.

But the claim that we see no meaningful improvement in Arya is absurd.  Compare the first scene in which the waif shows up to mercilessly beat the blind cat of the canals with a staff to the scene immediately before Arya's sight is returned.  There is immeasurable improvement there.  Or, indeed, look at the final sparring match between Arya and the waif, where Arya is systematically defending, gets knocked down, does precisely the same sort of leap to her feet as she does in the bout with Brienne, the waif drops her staff and pummels Arya with her hands.  Is Arya better than the waif at that point?  No.  And she's definitely not doing a good job at defending against an attack with hands.  But that's not the important question.  Is she better than the blind beggar on the street? Absolutely.  More importantly, is the Arya we see in the scene with Brienne better than the Arya we see in that scene? There's actually not much difference.  Especially in the first part of the scene Arya is moving very much like the Arya of the Brienne scene. 

And I want to emphasize again it is stupid and childish to say things like X is a world class fighter and Y can't beat a world class fighter or X is better than Y.  This isn't arm wrestling where you learn to do it and then it's a pure contest to see who's the stronger.  We're talking about a hugely diverse range of abilities and techniques of varying importance in different contexts.  Put a saber in the hand of a brilliant foil fencer who's never fenced saber and set him against a middling good saber fencer and watch the"better fencer" lost ignominiously.  Stop thinking "better" and start thinking context and the scene explains itself.

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13 hours ago, darmody said:

Jaime, brother-lover of Carol (/Cheryl/Cersei). 

And that's meant to pass for wit?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

And that's meant to pass for wit?

I don't know. I didn't make it up.

You may have noticed the internet likes to come up with nicknames. 

Edited by darmody

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On 8/12/2017 at 5:50 PM, StepStark said:

Then why was the entire scene filmed as if Brienne and Pod and Littlefinger (and possibly Sansa) are fascinated with the swordsmanship Arya displayed in the sparing?

As I said...

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21 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

You are comparing the books and the show even as you say you are not.  Fine, you love the books, hate the show.  De hustings &c.

But the claim that we see no meaningful improvement in Arya is absurd.  Compare the first scene in which the waif shows up to mercilessly beat the blind cat of the canals with a staff to the scene immediately before Arya's sight is returned.  There is immeasurable improvement there.  Or, indeed, look at the final sparring match between Arya and the waif, where Arya is systematically defending, gets knocked down, does precisely the same sort of leap to her feet as she does in the bout with Brienne, the waif drops her staff and pummels Arya with her hands.  Is Arya better than the waif at that point?  No.  And she's definitely not doing a good job at defending against an attack with hands.  But that's not the important question.  Is she better than the blind beggar on the street? Absolutely.  More importantly, is the Arya we see in the scene with Brienne better than the Arya we see in that scene? There's actually not much difference.  Especially in the first part of the scene Arya is moving very much like the Arya of the Brienne scene. 

And I want to emphasize again it is stupid and childish to say things like X is a world class fighter and Y can't beat a world class fighter or X is better than Y.  This isn't arm wrestling where you learn to do it and then it's a pure contest to see who's the stronger.  We're talking about a hugely diverse range of abilities and techniques of varying importance in different contexts.  Put a saber in the hand of a brilliant foil fencer who's never fenced saber and set him against a middling good saber fencer and watch the"better fencer" lost ignominiously.  Stop thinking "better" and start thinking context and the scene explains itself.

I see that you're still not ready to recognize the reality, but rather want to remain in your invented little world in which Brienne didn't beat Jaime decisively, Arya wasn't getting her butt kicked by Waif in literally every of their training sessions, and I hate the show just because I love the books. Not that you have any reasonable ground for these "convictions", but on the other hand, that's the nature of delusion - you don't actually need reasonable ground for what you chose to believe.

Sorry for disturbing you, have a nice life, hope I'll never discuss anything with you any more.

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4 hours ago, Lee Chapman said:

As I said...

Do you realize that you don't have to read, let alone comment on, subjects you dislike?

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