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[Poll] How would you rate episode 704?

How would you rate episode 704?   307 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best?

    • 1
      7
    • 2
      1
    • 3
      1
    • 4
      4
    • 5
      4
    • 6
      14
    • 7
      27
    • 8
      34
    • 9
      83
    • 10
      132

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179 posts in this topic

Re the whole Arya/Brienne thing, I enjoyed the fight for how it played out, without thinking of the logic too much. But, what if Arya is the Waif and the Waif has had an immense amount of training in swordplay?

The only thing that still really negates the Waif becoming Arya is Nymeria not eating her - but, if the Waif became no-one enough, perhaps she can impersonate Arya enough to fool a direwolf?

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7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Is GoT better than Breaking Bad? Does chicken taste nicer than lamb? Tastes differ.

But there is a difference between those two questions. Chicken and lamb thing is really all about tastes and nothing else, and so is the question of which show do you LIKE more, Breaking Bad or GOT. But the first question is not about taste, or at least, not entirely about taste. You may like Beyonce's songs, but would you ever say that she's better than Mozart? Even if you don't like Mozart at all, I don't think you would. And that is because there is certain understanding of what is objectively better between the two. Well the same goes for TV shows. Decade ago, Lost was the most popular show in the world, but nobody really thought that it is as good as Sopranos or The Wire, even though obviously much more people liked it than The Wire (Sopranos was also very popular).

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We could of course discuss elements of the show from an objective viewpoint -- does character motivation make sense, is it well acted, does the pacing hold up, so on. However when the question is "how do you rate this episode", that's not the question being asked.

I interpret the question very differently. To me, "How do you rate this episode?" is not the same as "How did you like this episode?", but more like "How objectively good do you think this episode was?"

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Is it really so much more nonsensical than other shows? I really don't think so. Consider the eagles problem in LoTR, for example. Or how nobody can tell that Clark Kent is Superman because he wears glasses.

I never said that GOT is the only popular nonsense in the world, and your examples couldn't be better. Yes I do think that LOTR is highly overrated, precisely because there is nothing even remotely realistic about it (on the other hand, it was never meant to be realistic, so it probably fulfilled its purpose). Superman and the rest of superhero universe is just outright silly in every way imaginable. But again, maybe it was always meant to be silly and to serve just for fun. But GOT shouldn't be that and it's not sold as that. It's sold as "clever and realistic and gritty fantasy", and that means that silliness and nonsense of the Superman type shouldn't be found there. And yet, the show's crowded with nonsense of all kinds.

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

These are examples of grade A nonsense that anything GoT has done pales in comparison to

Not really. While Superman's disguise is simply ridiculous, as a logical obstacle it could be easily remedied with a better disguise (a beard, a wig, maybe even a mask), and the story would be improved without being significantly changed. On the other hand, how can you improve Tyrion's "arc" in the show in the last two seasons? From his meeting with Dany onward, it's one stupidity after another. Not only that she didn't have any reason to accept him as adviser at all, but so far he didn't produce a single piece of useful advice to her. Quite the contrary, everything he did turned to disaster. But she's still keeping him as her Hand. Is she an idiot? Is he? Are they both? The answer to at least one of these questions has to be "yes" if we think about it logically, and yet, neither Dany nor Tyrion are supposed to be seen as idiots. And you can't remedy his "arc" unless changing it completely.

What about Sansa marrying Ramsay? In what universe can something like that be logical? In not a single one. And again, there is no remedy to that situation, unless you change it completely and leave Sansa out of Ramsay's reach.

What about Arya's time in Braavos? How is it possible that she learned from FM how to be much better than they are? How is it possible that they just let her go, if they are what they say they are (a lethal and very expensive order of highly skilled assassins)? None of that makes any sense, and once again, you can't improve it without changing it completely.

I can go on and on, but the point is that GOT is second to none when it comes to sheer nonsense. It's really frustrating when you as a viewer must constantly suspend your disbelief while watching something. It's like Barman vs Superman, the movie: people didn't have a problem with usual silliness that is essential to both characters' existence, but when, on top of everything, the movie kept throwing more and more nonsense, especially the infamous Marta scene. There's only so much nonsense one can take.

8 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We can of course objectively discuss the degree of nonsense there is in GoT (though even the discussions of that are rarely objective), but how important that is to our enjoyment of the show remains entirely subjective.

I never questioned that. How much are you going to enjoy Dany and Tyrion is up to you and nobody else. But if we're discussing the logic of that, then yes, there are huge problems, and they are objective.

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10 minutes ago, StepStark said:

<everything you said>

Great post, couldn't agree more.

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4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Oh, no wonder it wasn't shiny and glistening like I thought it should be.  I guess it would be stupid to use VS for training.  It still seems her sword should have broken Arya's.  Unless the way in which it was forged gave it uncommon strength.

Unless your name is Arya! :) 

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The scene with Davos, Jon and Missandei was so badly written and redundant.  Also, Missandei may have been born in a place where there was no marriage, but she was stolen and sold into slavery as a child and experienced cultures which did had marriage and the concept of illegitimate children.  Pretty silly for a character who is as worldly and intelligent to have to ask Jon Snow why his surname isn't Stark.

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The battle at the end was the only redeeming aspect of the episode to me. As long as I push battle logic out of my mind, it was pretty sweet to watch, right up to where Jamie got pushed into a lake that got magically deep. 
The Arya/Brianne scene was absurd. No way Arya, could keep up with Brianne. Can Arya fight well enough, sure, but Brianne is supposed to be on the same level as Jamie and he was one of the best swords men in Westeros. Sorry, I just don't find it believable. 
The rest of the dialog in the show was just poorly written. Bend the knee, Exposition, Bend the knee, Exposition, look at my cave drawings that just happen to be here but won't explain why the Children of the Forest would ever be that far down there... Bend the knee. Just tired of the same lines over and over without moving the plot forward. It's like they are trying to kill time and are not sure how to do it.
Though, it was still the best episode this season, I think. So I gave it 8. 

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13 hours ago, StepStark said:

I never questioned that. How much are you going to enjoy Dany and Tyrion is up to you and nobody else. But if we're discussing the logic of that, then yes, there are huge problems, and they are objective.

Quote

Oh but all those 10s that people regularly give are realistic and objective? What a hypocrisy, to say the least. Even last week there were people who rated episode 3 with 10. So how are those people going to rate episode 4? 20? 100? LOL!!! I don't get all this whining of show lovers, you always seem to feel like victims somehow, even though the show is clearly overrated as hell. I have hard time understanding 10s even for this episode, because the episode had very serious issues, even in the battle scene (but the battle was very exciting and well done in general), but okay, for the sake of argument let's say that this is an episode that deserves 10. But what about all the previous episodes that received all those 10s? Doesn't that actually prove that the show has been hugely overrated for quite some time? This episode that contains the best action scene in the show's history clearly proves that the show is overrated, because retrospectively all those previous "perfect scores" look ridiculous.

I enjoyed very much your exchange of views with @Kingmonkey , so thank you both for it.
Given that I was the one who first asked the question about who could qualify this episode with a 1, I think that now it became clearer the reasons why some could have done so, at least for me.
A separate subject is the one of objectivity, I truly believe that objectivity in the human sphere is hard to attain, not to say impossible, except in some restricted areas, such as mathematics. In most things, it is a matter of points of view, and what we call "objective" is often nothing more than the result of a consensus, that is, of a set of subjectivities.
I never thought we were asked to be objective, just to rate an episode, and each of us can give more or less weight to the differents aspects or categories of the thing we are asked to rate (writing, acting, direction, camara work, sets, costumes, CGI, pace, attention given at details, music, etc). Some might put all the weight in some  or even only  one of those things and nothing in the others. 
So, I took it as that a person who rated this with 1, hated all of it (given that  there's no zero, and 1 is the min you can give), and "how can anyone hate all of it?" is what I was wondering. Even if the writting was a complete crap, what about the acting? or the music? or the visuals? 
That is why I asked. and it was an honest question, I wasn't trolling or something like that.
Of course I share your view that the many 10 that previous episodes got aren't objective either.

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Gave it a 7. Maybe the better episode untill now only because of the bigger production value + field of fire and 2 actors that play really well off each other - Jaime and Bronn.

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19 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Needle is strong castle forged steel, so is very strong, but is not Valyrian Steel.

 

Yeah, I knew it was a well forged blade, because both Jon and Ned commented on that.  Presumably Brienne's practice sword is castle forged also, so I still don't know how Arya's could have held up to Brienne's, although admittedly I know next to nothing about steel and swords.

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19 hours ago, ummester said:

Re the whole Arya/Brienne thing, I enjoyed the fight for how it played out, without thinking of the logic too much. But, what if Arya is the Waif and the Waif has had an immense amount of training in swordplay?

The only thing that still really negates the Waif becoming Arya is Nymeria not eating her - but, if the Waif became no-one enough, perhaps she can impersonate Arya enough to fool a direwolf?

This would be one hell of a twist. And let's be honest Arya should be dead after the stabbing she got. I'm glad she isn't but that looked pretty damn fatal to me. But if she was the waif in disguise she wouldn't be motivated by Arya's past history. So it's clearly still Arya. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yeah, I knew it was a well forged blade, because both Jon and Ned commented on that.  Presumably Brienne's practice sword is castle forged also, so I still don't know how Arya's could have held up to Brienne's, although admittedly I know next to nothing about steel and swords.

Well, I also know virtually nothing about steel or swords, but yesterday I watched a YouTube video from someone who did in which he was examining the Arya-Brienne fight. 

He said Needle was a smallsword, but still steel and quite strong. It would not have just broken from a swing of Brienne's longsword. The guy actually had a real smallsword in his hand.

So expecting Needle to just snap was unrealistic, but he argued smallswords are for thrusting, not cutting. He even demonstrated by hitting his own bare arm skin firmly with the real smallsword multiple times and it did absolutely nothing.

Smallswords are generally for thrusting with point only he argued and said that was the most unrealistic part of the fight.

That said, Needle had previously already been shown as a sword that can be used for both cutting and thrusting. For example, Arya used a cutting/slicing action to kill pidgeons and cut the candle in Waif scene but used a thrusting one to kill Polliver and Rorge with the point.

Edited by Gaz0680

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23 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Well, I also know virtually nothing about steel or swords, but yesterday I watched a YouTube video from someone who did in which he was examining the Arya-Brienne fight. 

He said Needle was a smallsword, but still steel and quite strong. It would not have just broken from a swing of Brienne's longsword. The guy actually had a real smallsword in his hand.

So expecting Needle to just snap was unrealistic, but he argued smallswords are for thrusting, not cutting. He even demonstrated by hitting his own bare arm skin firmly with the real smallsword multiple times and it did absolutely nothing.

Smallswords are generally for thrusting with point only he argued and said that was the most unrealistic part of the fight.

That said, Needle had previously already been shown as a sword that can be used for both cutting and thrusting. For example, Arya used a cutting/slicing action to kill pidgeons and cut the candle in Waif scene but used a thrusting one to kill Polliver and Rorge with the point.

Right, like a fencing sword is for thrusting.  Even her water dancing style reminds me more of fencing.

I had forgotten about Arya slicing the pigeons head off.  I guess it would make sense that it would have been made to both slice and thrust, given that Jon had it made especially for Arya.  She is small and agile so the fencing/thrusting fighting style would be more to her advantage, but she would be fighting people with broadswords so would need to be able to parry their attacks as well.  I just thought, all else being equal, after repeated hits, a small sword would break. 

That was really interesting.  Thanks for sharing!

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7 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

So, I took it as that a person who rated this with 1, hated all of it (given that  there's no zero, and 1 is the min you can give), and "how can anyone hate all of it?" is what I was wondering. Even if the writting was a complete crap, what about the acting? or the music? or the visuals? 

But aren't 10s for this episode also unrealistic? If 1 means what you say it means, then 10 means that the episode had no faults, and therefore I can only ask a similar question: "How can anyone love all of it?" Even the battle itself, which I enjoyed very much and totally unexpectedly (I don't think I ever enjoyed anything in GOT as much as this battle), wasn't without logical fallacies, and not to mention the rest of the episode which was cringe worthy for the most part.

7 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

I never thought we were asked to be objective, just to rate an episode

Maybe it's because I'm older than most of other posters here, but I see rating differently: when there is a scale against which you're measuring something, it requires at least some objectivity. A scale is an attempt to quantify something, and quantities are objective by nature. Admittedly, rating a show is a tricky task because it's trying to quantify the quality, but I don't think that it's meant to be devoid of objectivity.

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38 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But aren't 10s for this episode also unrealistic? If 1 means what you say it means, then 10 means that the episode had no faults, and therefore I can only ask a similar question: "How can anyone love all of it?" Even the battle itself, which I enjoyed very much and totally unexpectedly (I don't think I ever enjoyed anything in GOT as much as this battle), wasn't without logical fallacies, and not to mention the rest of the episode which was cringe worthy for the most part.

Maybe it's because I'm older than most of other posters here, but I see rating differently: when there is a scale against which you're measuring something, it requires at least some objectivity. A scale is an attempt to quantify something, and quantities are objective by nature. Admittedly, rating a show is a tricky task because it's trying to quantify the quality, but I don't think that it's meant to be devoid of objectivity.

I agree with your point that there should be some objectivity in rating a tv show, but if the parameters of the rating aren't clearly defined including weightings for each criteria forming part of the overall rating, its pretty much going to be all subjective.

Edited by Gaz0680

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5 hours ago, Snormund said:

The only thing that still really negates the Waif becoming Arya

...is the fact that she would have no reason to do so whatsoever

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Maybe it's because I'm older than most of other posters here, but I see rating differently: when there is a scale against which you're measuring something, it requires at least some objectivity.

I completely agree. A lot of people these days are capable only of two states though: hate it or love it. It's a Facebook-style binary choice: You like it, in which case you MUST (apparently) rate it a 10, or you don't.

Edited by Mikkel

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

A lot of people these days are capable only of two states though: hate it or love it. It's a Facebook-style binary choice: You like it, in which case you MUST (apparently) rate it a 10, or you don't.

That's right, and I see it with professional critics as well. They go on and on how much hey LOVED something, without ever explaining why it should or shouldn't be respected as a piece of art. Critics in the past were much better because they weren't afraid to critique something that is popular (if anything, sometimes they were too harsh on something because it's popular, which is also biased of course), but also because they were more thorough and more knowledgeable. Today it's all about one's feelings and about how something made us feel.

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:36 AM, ummester said:

Re the whole Arya/Brienne thing, I enjoyed the fight for how it played out, without thinking of the logic too much. But, what if Arya is the Waif and the Waif has had an immense amount of training in swordplay?

The only thing that still really negates the Waif becoming Arya is Nymeria not eating her - but, if the Waif became no-one enough, perhaps she can impersonate Arya enough to fool a direwolf?

Why would Arya say the line 'that's not you,' if she wasn't Arya and hadn't said it to Ned in another context which she was recalling ironically in that moment, the rationale for which as explained to us by the writers themselves following the episode, just in case we had failed to appreciate their cleverness?  How would the waif know enough about Arya to know to say that line to a wolf she'd never seen before in the middle of the woods with no one else to hear, feigning an emotion that never actually came to pass?  Are you suggesting the waif has access to ALL of Arya's childhood memories, including every line she ever uttered to her father verbatim? (in the books, wearing a mask gives one access to very limited fragmentary flashes of memory of the previous inhabitant of the face; though similar symbolically, it's not qualitatively equivalent to skinchanging).  If this is the waif and she's nevertheless using that line, because D&D think it's a catchy callback for their own 'meta-' purposes, then the whole thing is just silly.

Fooling a direwolf in this manner wouldn't be possible in the books, but who knows with the dastardly droll D's -- I've given up trying to pry apart their (increasingly non-existent) internal logic (the circumstances surrounding Bran's recent (d)evolution is a case in point), although I sincerely admire your intelligent efforts to bring coherence to their gotcha moments!  In the books, it's quite clear that animals in general are not fooled by the masks of faceless men:

Quote

A group of Lysene sailors were staggering from the Happy Port as she went by, but the girl did not see any of the whores. The Ship was closed up and forlorn, its troupe of mummers no doubt still abed. But farther on, on the wharf beside an Ibbenese whaler, she spied Cat's old friend Tagganaro tossing a ball back and forth with Casso, King of Seals, whilst his latest cutpurse worked the crowd of onlookers. When she stopped to watch and listen for a moment, Tagganaro glanced at her without recognition, but Casso barked and clapped his flippers. He knows me, the girl thought, or else he smells the fish. She hurried on her way.

(ADWD - The Ugly Little Girl)

She was in luck tonight. The tavern was near empty, and she was able to claim a quiet corner not far from the fire. No sooner had she settled there and crossed her legs than something brushed up against her thigh. "You again?" said the blind girl. She scratched his head behind one ear, and the cat jumped up into her lap and began to purr. Braavos was full of cats, and no place more than Pynto's. The old pirate believed they brought good luck and kept his tavern free of vermin. "You know me, don't you?" she whispered. Cats were not fooled by a mummer's moles. They remembered Cat of the Canals.

(ADWD - The Blind Girl)

 

On the other hand, Melisandre did succeed in fooling Ghost somehow with her 'Bene Gesserit Voice'-like trick.

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6 out of 10 for me.

It wasn't terrible but there were too many stupid scenes, including:  Dany burning the food wagons after making a point of not having any food to feed her army because Cersei had raped the Reach, everyone catching fire when Drogon blew fire on them except Bronn and the Dothraki and the awkward scene featuring Missandei and Jon and Davos.

I liked the scenes at Winterfell.  Ok, Arya being a match for Brienne was a stretch but it was fun and unlike most viewers, Bran didn't creep me out.

At least we didn't see Euron's fleet sail up Blackwater Rush to save the day for the Lannisters LOL

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On 10/08/2017 at 1:52 AM, SansaJonRule said:

So, why did he let them make those changes?  Isn't he supposed to be the consultant with the final say?

He can be consulted, but he doesn't have any say. You can find a lot of interviews with GRRM on the subject on You Tube.

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