Lady Fevre Dream

[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

517 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The fact that a lot of show only fans think the Lannisters are the good guys is a huge sign that the show is doing a bad job with character development. I even read a review recently that finished by saying that Cersei is the true protagonist behing the series, how she overcame her abusive wedding and oppressive family, and now has to prevent power hungry Daenerys from burning everything.

Like I said, I love book Lannisters but I like them for the villains they are - I'm talking about Cersei and Tywin of course.

But how can people say that Jaime is a good guy when he is basically helping his mass murderer sister, who provoked their son's suicide and never cared for it (guys this is very extreme, and the show never cared for it) to do all the shit she is doing?

And by the way, how stupid were Robb, Stannis, Renly, the Blackfish and the Tyrells to ever oppose the Lannisters? After 9 seasons of fighting all of these people, they are STILL the most powerful army in Westeros. It makes all of their enemies look really stupid to ever think they could beat them. Not even all the dothraki hordes + Unsullieds + 3 dragons and half the continent in open rebellion can stop them. It makes the wars from the first seasons look really pointless, like how could the North ever win this?

Oh and does Cersei have a factory that creates soldiers out of mud? Or is Qyburn ressurecting them all?? The Lannister army should be gone by now. I mean absolutely non-existant. They fought the North, Stannis, the Tyrells and the dothraki so far. There is no way their numbers could be of any threat to anyone (yet they are because apparently protagonist Cersei will win this shit)

Edited by Paid Debt Lannister

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21 minutes ago, Paid Debt Lannister said:

The fact that a lot of show only fans think the Lannisters are the good guys is a huge sign that the show is doing a bad job with character development. I even read a review recently that finished by saying that Cersei is the true protagonist behing the series, how she overcame her abusive wedding and oppressive family, and now has to prevent power hungry Daenerys from burning everything.

Was that review written by Book!Cersei? Because that sounds like something Book!Cersei would say to paint herself as the victim/hero, delusional as she was. Show!Cersei, on the other hand, doesn't even bother to justify her evil fuckery. She's evil for the sake of being evil. Soooo interesting. 

I'm honestly beyond sick of the Lannisters, in both the show and the books. I don't like Aegon or that whole plot, but I'd take anything over the Lannisters and their infinite lives. 

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4 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

Your videos are great. Keep up with the good work :thumbsup:

thanks, it's always rewarding to hear it.

3 hours ago, Quoth said:

The thing that's been bothering me is how Bran's announcement that he is the three eyed raven/crow/whatever is being handled. Regardless of how he might "prove" to the listener  who/what he is " "chaos is a ladder...", "yeah Sis, I saw you're 'wedding'..." or whatever, why isn't his "pronouncements" that he's the three eyed raven/crow/whatever met with more of  a "Whaaa...? WTF you talkin' 'bout, Willis?" sort of attitude? I mean, is the concept of a 3EC something well known to all? That a guy can see the past, present and future all at once so readily accepted?

"Well, it's hard to explain..."

"Oh, OK, no worries, then. Have a nice... ummm... day, there, Bran."

My kid brother comes home after a long absence in a frozen wasteland spouting such tales and it's off to the Citadel's looney bin cell with you for a nice long rest.  

yeah, not even season has handled Bran's arc as poorly as they are handling now.

In fact, Winterfell is like a retirement home for abandoned or standby plots.

Bran: "Have I mentioned I'm a shell of a man with no feelings nor moral code, Arya? Good. Now send in Meera."

Littlefinger: "Well thank you for scheming up all the plot from the first 6 seasons, Lord Baelish. Now you can rest here while staring at Starks"

Arya "You'll be needed further in the storyline. in the meantime, dance with Brienne"

Brienne "Well, you're still on contract, so, while we figure something out for you, here's a playground for you"

Sansa "Nevermind resurrections, nor Moat Cailin/Dreadfort. Just tell the audience you're smart, once a week"

Jon even had to leave the place to advance his storyline!

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They ruined Jaime. How can you care after all of this. Through 7/8 seasons, he's been helping Cersei do horrible things. He could suddenly do something good, and too little, too late. They trashed him.

Whats crazy was Jamies line to Dickard(en)... Talking about, "olenna went against her queen."... Yeah, after Her "queen" killed her whole family and your uncle.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They ruined Jaime. How can you care after all of this. Through 7/8 seasons, he's been helping Cersei do horrible things. He could suddenly do something good, and too little, too late. They trashed him.

Exactly, he is irredeemable.

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19 hours ago, Crona said:

I thought it was weird that the Lannisters did not have any urgency before Dany attacked.  I mean they knew she had dragons, did they not think it was real? I also really thought it was weird that Dany landed and turned her back, and nobody but Jaime thought to rush her, and couldn't Jaime have thrown the spear instead, I've seen Jorah and Greyworm throw spears from pretty far away. I guess, it has to do with the horseback.

Horseback on the gallop must be difficult, yes. Perhaps more importantly, Larry lost his good hand. We saw him training his off hand with the sword, but I have no idea whether he retrained himself with a spear. Or whether he was any good with a spear to begin with. 

 

I think he wanted to be sure to kill Dany, and made a conscious decision back when he refused Bronn's suggestion to flee the battlefield that he was willing to die. 

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1 hour ago, Paid Debt Lannister said:

The fact that a lot of show only fans think the Lannisters are the good guys is a huge sign that the show is doing a bad job with character development.

I don't think that's exactly the case. While I don't think that Cersei is the protagonist and any ideas that she should be show that the show is doing a terrible job with her character, the writers and producers want you to be rooting for Jaime and the Lannister forces. They say as much in the behind the scenes from the most recent episode, that they want the viewer to be torn between rooting for Jaime and Bronn to kill Dany/Drogon and rooting for Dany and Drogon to make Jaime and Bronn crispy. They are trying to make Jaime a hero of the series and that is where I think they are failing the worst because they have just utterly destroyed his character and anything that made him sympathetic. 

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11 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't think the Lannisters are good or bad guys. Other than Cersei and Joffrey (Lannister-Baratheon), what Lannister has actually been a villain?

Larry. He shares equal blame with Joffrey and Carol for starting the War of the Five Kings for: 

1). Sexing his sister and cuckolding the king, thus creating fake heirs which were found out by a series of Hands.

2). Throwing Bran out the window.

Also, Tywin, for setting up the Red Wedding, arranging to have Sansa raped, helping set his own son up in a murder trial and stealing his girlfriend. 

Neither were ever so bad as Joffrey/Carol, and they got not only their humanizing scenes but their redemptive arcs in Larry's case, with Brienne. But they were definitely villainous. 

Throw in Lancel as cousin-lover, regicide, and Fundamentalist Tough, and that leaves Tyrion, Tommen, Myrcella, and Kevan as the only non-villainous Lannisters. That's more villains than neutrals or good guys. 

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, darmody said:

Larry. He shares equal blame with Joffrey and Carol for starting the War of the Five Kings for: 

1). Sexing his sister and cuckolding the king, thus creating fake heirs which were found out by a series of Hands.

2). Throwing Bran out the window.

Also, Tywin, for setting up the Red Wedding, arranging to have Sansa raped, helping set his own son up in a murder trial and stealing his girlfriend. 

Neither were ever so bad as Joffrey/Carol, and they got not only their humanizing scenes but their redemptive arcs in Larry's case, with Brienne. But they were definitely villainous. 

Throw in Lancel as cousin-lover, regicide, and Fundamentalist Tough, and that leaves Tyrion, Tommen, Myrcella, and Kevan as the only non-villainous Lannisters. That's more villains than neutrals or good guys. 

Do not forget the Sacking of King's Landing  and Elia Martell and her children...and also using monsters like the Mountain for his cause.

Edited by Gala

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11 hours ago, WinterPool Stark said:

I wouldn't class Qyburn as a villain

He conspired to blow up the Sept and many innocent people simply because his patroness was in trouble for crimes she actually committed. Now he's fighting for the biggest villain on the show, save the Night King. 

Also, he took odd pleasure in having Pycell killed, for what? Because he was in Carol's way and snubbed him? (For conducting experiments which actually were creepy, frankly.)

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Qyburn created zombie Mountain, too.

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Exactly, he is irredeemable.

It's mind-boggling how badly they've fucked Jaime. I'm not the biggest fan of Feast/Dance, but Jaime's character arc there is so good and immediately makes him one of the most complex and rounded characters in the series, if not the most complex. 

But after season 3, everything regarding Jaime went to shit. 

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5 hours ago, Quoth said:

The thing that's been bothering me is how Bran's announcement that he is the three eyed raven/crow/whatever is being handled. Regardless of how he might "prove" to the listener  who/what he is " "chaos is a ladder...", "yeah Sis, I saw you're 'wedding'..." or whatever, why isn't his "pronouncements" that he's the three eyed raven/crow/whatever met with more of  a "Whaaa...? WTF you talkin' 'bout, Willis?" sort of attitude? I mean, is the concept of a 3EC something well known to all? That a guy can see the past, present and future all at once so readily accepted?

"Well, it's hard to explain..."

"Oh, OK, no worries, then. Have a nice... ummm... day, there, Bran."

My kid brother comes home after a long absence in a frozen wasteland spouting such tales and it's off to the Citadel's looney bin cell with you for a nice long rest.  

LOL  All terrific points on others reactions to Bran being the or a 3ER.  I especially like the last point it would fit in with Sam's story at The Citadel.  Since they've bothered to actually give WF a Maester, you'd think he might at least offer the suggestion of this being a mental or emotion-al-err-less condition that perhaps The Citadel's experts should be contacted about for advice?  Of course, someone could say......EFF OFF to that idea.  In all honesty, the Ds hatred of magic seems to be showing.......they have Sansa half ass embarrassed to explain, even to her sister, LOL  Maybe Bran's new stoic nature is the Stark Family Secret.  It's not like it's JUST INCEST and to be expected, accepted, and followed like in King's Landing. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised he actually announced himself as the 3ER.  That seems a position best left secret.

Of course his pronouncements would carry no value if it were not known that these are important visions, so I suppose he has to both announce and foster confidence in him as a seer.

Sansa is a cynic, particularly after the ordeal she's gone through.  So many in her journey have represented themselves as something they are not.  I think the way she told Arya about Bran was a combination of not fully understanding what he is and being cynical despite having heard him tell of seeing her.  I think the facial expressions when he talked about the list and when Arya sparred Brienne were the wheels turning and her coming to terms that there is a lot she doesn't understand, at precisely the point she had let herself feel the most in control she's been in her life.  She'd come back a survivor and the Lady of Winterfell, only to discover she was surrounded by a family of superheroes.

Edited by Illiterati

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5 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

What are the evidences that Bran can see the FUTURE??

I can admit he's able to deduct it, from what he sees of the present…

Remember earlier this season when he had a vision of the Army of the Dead with Zombie Giants? I think that was suppose to be the future. 

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21 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOL  All terrific points on others reactions to Bran being the or a 3ER.  I especially like the last point it would fit in with Sam's story at The Citadel.  Since they've bothered to actually give WF a Maester, you'd think he might at least offer the suggestion of this being a mental or emotion-al-err-less condition that perhaps The Citadel's experts should be contacted about for advice?  Of course, someone could say......EFF OFF to that idea.  In all honesty, the Ds hatred of magic seems to be showing.......they have Sansa half ass embarrassed to explain, even to her sister, LOL  Maybe Bran's new stoic nature is the Stark Family Secret.  It's not like it's JUST INCEST and to be expected, accepted, and followed like in King's Landing. 

Where in the hell did they get the new Maester?  Is he the former Bolton guy?  Might want to trade him in for a different model.  Shouldn't he be working with Bran, what with being a Maester, whose got a chain for magic like they all do?

Jeeze, and I thought they did a bad job of Bran's story after he left winterfell, it's nothing compared to this bizarro....he's spouts off all kinds of random BS...I saw your wedding, saw you at the crossroads....but doesn't offer anything USEFUL to anyone in fighting the war.

 

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29 minutes ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

It's mind-boggling how badly they've fucked Jaime. I'm not the biggest fan of Feast/Dance, but Jaime's character arc there is so good and immediately makes him one of the most complex and rounded characters in the series, if not the most complex. 

But after season 3, everything regarding Jaime went to shit. 

In the books, he is going through what is probably the greatest character arcs of all. This show, he had that first season with Brienne where he was headed that way but they pulled him back to being the incest loving dog in heat that he is for Cersei, just like in book 1/Season 1. it is revolting.

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3 hours ago, Paid Debt Lannister said:

how she overcame her abusive wedding 

Do you mean marriage? Because as I recall she was happy to marry Not-so Fat Robert, and actually liked him at first. 

I don't recall much physical abuse. When Robert hit her in Season One, it seemed unusual. She had him killed shortly thereafter. 

There was neglect and rampant cheating, but it was never clear to me how much of a chance Carol gave Robert. He never impregnated her despite the fact that he was shown to be very potent. What with all the bastards. (He could've fathered an entire Army of Bastards to fight at the Battle of the Bastards.) She must have finished him another way and went with Larry instead pretty early. 

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7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Where in the hell did they get the new Maester?  Is he the former Bolton guy?  Might want to trade him in for a different model.  Shouldn't he be working with Bran, what with being a Maester, whose got a chain for magic like they all do?

Jeeze, and I thought they did a bad job of Bran's story after he left winterfell, it's nothing compared to this bizarro....he's spouts off all kinds of random BS...I saw your wedding, saw you at the crossroads....but doesn't offer anything USEFUL to anyone in fighting the war.

 

LOL  Maybe he's not really a Maester, maybe he's an animal activist protecting the ravens, and their feathers, from Sandra incase a certain Power Dress comes back in style.  HA  Honestly, I have no idea where this Maester came from.  I do vaguely recall one there with the Boltons, didn't one 'announce' the birth of Roose's new son right in front of both Boltons.  Then, Ramsey murder Pops right in front of one, right?  HA, I confess, wasn't a scene I wanted to rewatch so I can't be certain of the details, nor the identity of said Bolton Maester.  If I were Jon, I think I'd insist on a replacement.  It's making the animal activist in disguise look like a good idea, isn't it? 

IIRC, I thought Maester Luwin said that not all, not many, Maesters have the Valyrian Steel link that represents magic?  I can't recall if that was book and show.  I'm guessing book, def., show??  Who knows, LOL

Honestly, worrying for Bran's state would at least be something to kill time with while the Starks await permission from the Ds to do away with BatFinger.  I'm guessing......the permission is lost on the Westerosi Web somewhere. 

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Where in the hell did they get the new Maester?  Is he the former Bolton guy?  Might want to trade him in for a different model.  Shouldn't he be working with Bran, what with being a Maester, whose got a chain for magic like they all do?

Yes he is Ramsay's maester, but I have no problem with that. Maesters are assigned to where they need to be, usually to a castle, rather than a certain lord. Unless a maester behaves like Qyburn, there is no need to kill him or remove him. Not all maesters have the Valyrian link to show they've dabbled in magic, but Luwin told Bran (maybe not in the show, I don't remember) that all the maesters who try their hand at magic eventually come to the conclusion that it is all bullshit. Except Marwyn, but I don't know if he ever was mentioned in the show.

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