Risto

Discussing Sansa XXX: Sun and Moon

176 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I don't remember Arya being better than Sansa at running a household.  Arya was better than Sansa at math; but I don't see Arya having the patience to organize servants to sew, weave, clean, cook, etc.; or plan meals and entertainment for guests.  

Arya might take up the position of master-at-arms for Winterfell, especially if Brienne doesn't survive.  Or she could go join the Wildlings and become a leader or a 'Queen-beyond-the-Wall'.  

Arya's arc is that of a lone wolf assassin, forgive the pun.  This reunion is little more than a fan service detour of that arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Arya's arc is that of a lone wolf assassin, forgive the pun.  This reunion is little more than a fan service detour of that arc.

Why do people seem to think Arya's end game is just being an assassin. She is worth much more than that and at least, her arc in the books hints at her becoming much more. Admittedly, the show doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Why do people seem to think Arya's end game is just being an assassin. She is worth much more than that and at least, her arc in the books hints at her becoming much more. Admittedly, the show doesn't.

Not a bookreader (thus my nickname).  The show has depicted her as ever more solitary, even to the point of having taken on the Hound's sociopathic traits.

 

If she is to be more than a ninja in the HBO show, they haven't telegraphed it a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

The show has depicted her as ever more solitary, even to the point of having taken on the Hound's sociopathic traits.

If she is to be more than a ninja in the HBO show, they haven't telegraphed it a bit.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Arya sociopathic.  She doesn't have any qualms about killing when she feels she needs to, but she doesn't do it for the sheer pleasure like the Hound says he did.  She has a lot of hurt, hatred and anger fueling her obsessive desire for revenge, and it's hard to predict what she will become once everyone on her list is dead.  The fact that everyone on her list hurt her or her family demonstrates a very strong loyalty to family (like her mother as someone else pointed out), but she would have to go through a whole lot of emotional healing to be part of a family unit.  Doesn't mean she couldn't though.  And there's still Gendry.  Or maybe she'll develop her warging abilities and join Nymeria's pack.  ;)

I don't think there's any question that she will have some important part to play in the war.

I loved the Sansa and Arya's reunion.  They were happy to see each other but were cautious at first and maintained their identities.

I was puzzled at first by Sansa's apparent displeasure after Brienne and Arya sparred (which was great).  After watching it again, I took note of how Sansa at first laughed when Arya mentioned her list, then her surprise when Bran confirmed it.  I think there were probably a couple things going through her mind. First, "wow, not only is she serious about having a list but she has the skill to do it".  Second, concern for the potential harm Arya could put herself in carrying out her vendetta.  Third, how might she and Jon put her skills to use.  There is no way she is worried about Arya competing for the position of Lady of Winterfell.  Sansa knows Arya has never had any desire to be a lady.  Having to share Brienne's loyalty could be a problem in her eyes though.

Sansa has always carried herself as a lady.  I think the difference we're seeing now is confidence and authority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Arya's arc is that of a lone wolf assassin, forgive the pun.  This reunion is little more than a fan service detour of that arc.

1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

Why do people seem to think Arya's end game is just being an assassin. She is worth much more than that and at least, her arc in the books hints at her becoming much more. Admittedly, the show doesn't.

THANK YOU. The TV series has simplified Arya's arc and characterization so much and just turned her into badass brawn - in the books her main arc was finding pack not being alone and she befriended anyone she came across. The "lone wolf dies but the pack survives" quote Sansa said in the trailer was Arya's motif running throughout her story. So this constant "Arya is just a sociopathic killer assassin" is frustrating. I know the writers changed a lot but didn't they say their endgame for the main characters will be the same? (It will just make less sense because the show didn't lay down the building blocks GRMM did). 

And even for non-book readers, the show has gone to the effort of showing Arya as more than an assassin. She refused to kill an innocent (Lady Crane), she befriended the Lannister soldiers, reconnected with Hot Pie and he called her pretty. And her choosing to return to WF over assassinating Cersei seemed like the ultimate pack vs. killer choice, and she chose her family. I don't get this "oh obvs Arya is nothing more than a kill machine forever." People aren't assuming Sansa is a pyscho after killing Ramsay or Jon are executing the men who killed him? But Arya killing the Freys just means she's too far gone? 

3 hours ago, Risto said:

I don't think Arya would find that role satisfactory. Brienne is Sansa's sworn shield. Arya is her sister, her ally, perhaps confidant. They need to be equal for this to work :D

 

1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya serving Sansa would be really cool?? It would be a god awful way to end Arya's arc and ruin her character. Arya should not be playing second fiddle to Sansa (or anyone). Her whole arc has been about her identity and independence. I just cannot see Arya comfortably settling in to the role of bodyguard or sworn shield for ANYONE, including her family.

She could do it temporarily as part of her journey, like the many other things she has done, but in terms of sworn shield being Arya's main purpose, hell no.

Arya is at least as smart as Sansa in the books and better than her at several things Sansa is now doing in the show (like running a household). 

3 hours ago, Pandean said:

Well, we know Arya has no desire to be Lady of Anything, so my thought is what exactly would she do...especially if she survives the show, etc.

Arya does have probably the biggest sense of family among the Starks--she really embodies the Tully words of Family, Duty, Honor. Most of her actions have been because of her family, her pack, whether biological or the makeshift ones she creates, so I wonder how that will pan out with her future self. I can see her in some type of service to her family, but still being considered equal.

I find it really interesting--the two of them really are two sides of the same coin. I've noticed that despite one being Arya being more martial and seemingly "Northron" and Sansa being more political and seemingly "Southron", Arya takes a lot more after Cat in the family, morals, etc. department and Sansa takes a lot more after Ned in her original ideals, etc.

Maybe it's just me though!

Still, I can see Sansa ruling Winterfell, Bran 3ER-ing it up, but I'm not sure where Arya fits in yet after everything...

Arya serving Sansa would be terrible, agreed. And a waste of her character arc. This might be unpopular, but Sansa being this amazing ruler of Winterfell really irks me. Where did she learn these skills? Bran - original recipe Bran - was trained to rule Winterfell in s2 and Jon had experience ruling/managing as Lord Commander. But in show!Sansa hasn't had anything, all her training has been in politics and scheming, and Southern politics for that matter at Kings Landing. (Which differs from book!Sansa who learned a lot about managing households etc. at the Vale, but again in the South). Did Ramsay give her lessons off-screen in s5? Making Sansa the Stark most connected to Winterfell and the one rallying the North - despite her failure to get support from the Northern lords last season - doesn't make much sense. Jon has been in the North and learning leadership skills for 6 seasons, Bran spent a decent amount of time at Winterfell in s2 and has been reconnecting with the old gods and culture (before becoming not-Bran obviously) and Arya was far more Northern and Stark-like to begin with and has been all over the place. Sansa has been learning how the South works, not the North which are pretty different. 

I'd just like their endgame to make more sense for their characters. Seeing Sansa as a political powerplayer in the South and the royal court would be cool: Hand of the King/Queen? Member of the Small Council? Ambassador of the North? Good version of LF? (In the books she also has marriage possibilities to both the Reach and Vale at different times, both Southern kingdoms she'd make a great lady of imo). But I think they're making her more important/connected to the North, despite the lack of logic.

Arya could be involved in smallfolk reform/protecting the commoners? That was one part of her arc the show kept: the Mycah incident, she saw the impact of war for the normal people up close, suffered as a commoner at Harrenhal, has connections with the Brotherhood was trying to protect the helpless, defending smallfolk against the Hound etc. Whether it's in the North or South - or going all over - if she makes it through the Long Night and into the rebuilding stage after, she might advocate for policy reform and change of laws to benefit the smallfolk like Aegon the Unlikely. She could travel around - with Nymeria and the wolf pack? - hearing the people's perspective/case or just defending them. She's been driven by justice for the downtrodden since Mycah. It would be much more satisfying to see her leading a wolf army around Westeros defending the oppressed than being Sansa's inferior.

(They've cut out a ton of her skills from the books: Learning languages, acting, detecting/telling lies, manipulation, being good at maths, being very charismatic and leading people etc. but I don't know what GRRM is going to do with them or what impact not having them in the show will have).

 

 

 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

 

THANK YOU. The TV series has simplified Arya's arc and characterization so much and just turned her into badass brawn - in the books her main arc was finding pack not being alone and she befriended anyone she came across. The "lone wolf dies but the pack survives" quote Sansa said in the trailer was Arya's motif running throughout her story. So this constant "Arya is just a sociopathic killer assassin" is frustrating. I know the writers changed a lot but didn't they say their endgame for the main characters will be the same? (It will just make less sense because the show didn't lay down the building blocks GRMM did). 

And even for non-book readers, the show has gone to the effort of showing Arya as more than an assassin. She refused to kill an innocent (Lady Crane), she befriended the Lannister soldiers, reconnected with Hot Pie and he called her pretty. And her choosing to return to WF over assassinating Cersei seemed like the ultimate pack vs. killer choice, and she chose her family. I don't get this "oh obvs Arya is nothing more than a kill machine forever." People aren't assuming Sansa is a pyscho after killing Ramsay or Jon are executing the men who killed him? But Arya killing the Freys just means she's too far gone?

Great points!  I agree.

7 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

Arya serving Sansa would be terrible, agreed. And a waste of her character arc. This might be unpopular, but Sansa being this amazing ruler of Winterfell really irks me. Where did she learn these skills?

I'd just like their endgame to make more sense for their characters. Seeing Sansa as a political powerplayer in the South and the royal court would be cool: Hand of the King/Queen? Member of the Small Council? Good version of LF? But I think they're making her more important to the North. (In the books she also has marriage possibilities to both the Reach and Vale at different times, both Southern kingdoms she'd make a great lady of imo).

Arya could be involved in smallfolk reform/protecting the commoners? That was one part of her arc the show kept: The Mycah incident, She saw the impact of war for the normal people up close, suffered as a commoner at Harrenhal, has connections with the Brotherhood was trying to protect the helpless, defending smallfolk against the Hound etc. Whether it's in the North or South - or going all over - if she makes it through the Long Night and into the rebuilding stage after, she might advocate for policy reform and change of laws to benefit the smallfolk and travel around (with Nymeria?) hearing their perspective/case or just defending them. She's been driven by justice for the downtrodden since Mycah. I'd much prefer to see her leading a wolf army around Westeros defending the oppressed than being Sansa's inferior

Sansa is not being depicted as a ruler, but a skilled administrator, for which she has had actual training and learning through observation.  Right now she has to be more important to the North.  That is where the greatest and immediate threat and her loyalty is.  But ending up as a lady elsewhere if she survives is only logical, as that is what her fate would have been before all the war and turmoil broke out.

I like your thoughts on what Arya could end up doing is she survives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Great points!  I agree.

Sansa is not being depicted as a ruler, but a skilled administrator, for which she has had actual training and learning through observation.  Right now she has to be more important to the North.  That is where the greatest and immediate threat and her loyalty is.  But ending up as a lady elsewhere if she survives is only logical, as that is what her fate would have been before all the war and turmoil broke out.

I like your thoughts on what Arya could end up doing is she survives.

BookArya I think is destined to survive the War for Dawn (despite people overemphasizing and mistaking the whole sewing through winter quote as being a definite indicator Arya will die) and have a significant role in what comes after with everything she has learned.

She has so many skills and so much potential she could be basically a female Lord over a castle (not a Lady), more in the vein of a Lyanna Mormont as opposed to say, Sansa or Catelyn. She could also be someone to bring the smallfolk together and protect them or, with time, could even be a very strong Queen in the North. So many other possibiluties with her too.

I am however, very worried D&D are just going to have Arya being a badass fighter then dying toward end of last battle and giving most of her role of what comes after the war to Sansa.

Edited by Gaz0680

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't mean to suggest Arya would be Sansa's inferior.....I apologize. I was more thinking that the Stark girls would be working together with Arya as the physical prowess and Sansa as the more mental stuff.

Sorry. Sometimes I just shouldn't say words. >.> I apologize if I upset anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Risto said:

 

BTW, did anyone liked Ms Turner's posture in this episode. The way she held her hands and walked by Bran and Arya was very much Lady-like. I never noticed it before.

If I had Sophie's posture my chiropractor would weep tears of joy. 

I really love that bit of subtle acting--it reminds me back in Season 6 when you can literally see her go from scared to proud when she takes Brienne as her sword sword.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

BookArya I think is destined to survive the War for Dawn (despite people overemphasizing and mistaking the whole sewing through winter quote as being a definite indicator Arya will die) and have a significant role in what comes after with everything she has learned.

She has so many skills and so much potential she could be basically a female Lord over a castle (not a Lady), more in the vein of a Lyanna Mormont as opposed to say, Sansa or Catelyn. She could also be someone to bring the smallfolk together and protect them or, with time, could even be a very strong Queen in the North. So many other possibiluties with her too.

I am however, very worried D&D are just going to have Arya being a badass fighter then dying toward end of last battle and giving most of her role of what comes after the war to Sansa.

I expect the books will have different endings for some characters, and I can't help wondering if the overall story might end differently as well.  The show started to divert from the books so much in S5.  It would be kind of cool actually - two stories in one.

I thought about Arya getting control of a castle, but I can't see her being happy dealing with the day to day logistics of running a castle.  I like the idea of her being a champion for the common folk better.  And her experiences have enabled her to relate to them well.

Hope you are wrong about what D&D will do.  I like the fact that she is a badass fighter, but I want her to be more than that.  For one I want them to develop her relationship and warging ability with Nymeria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually really liked the interaction between Sansa and Arya. I think they both see each other as grown but at the same time still see each other as when they were young. I'm actually really liking Sansa,  Arya, and Bran all of them have strengths and I hope they stick together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

If I had Sophie's posture my chiropractor would weep tears of joy. 

I really love that bit of subtle acting--it reminds me back in Season 6 when you can literally see her go from scared to proud when she takes Brienne as her sword sword.

Sophie and Nicolaj are both really good with the subtle facial expressions and body language.  I haven't seen ST in anything else, but I don't see how anyone can say she's a bad actress in GoT.  She has a very commanding presence.  It doesn't hurt that she is so beautiful either!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, SansaJonRule said:

Sophie and Nicolaj are both really good with the subtle facial expressions and body language.  I haven't seen ST in anything else, but I don't see how anyone can say she's a bad actress in GoT.  She has a very commanding presence.  It doesn't hurt that she is so beautiful either!

I've seen her in X-Men, Another Me, and some of her other stuff...I really like her as an actress and she was really great in those movies too.

Actually, the newest x-Men movie, Dark Phoenix (comes out in like 2018), she's continuing to play Jean Grey and if you know anything about X-Men...well, I'm excited....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Crona said:

I actually really liked the interaction between Sansa and Arya. I think they both see each other as grown but at the same time still see each other as when they were young. I'm actually really liking Sansa,  Arya, and Bran all of them have strengths and I hope they stick together.

Me too.  I am all for House Stark!  I think I actually liked Robb the least of the whole family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Pandean said:

I've seen her in X-Men, Another Me, and some of her other stuff...I really like her as an actress and she was really great in those movies too.

Actually, the newest x-Men movie, Dark Phoenix (comes out in like 2018), she's continuing to play Jean Grey and if you know anything about X-Men...well, I'm excited....

I do remember seeing her when my husband was watching X-Men, but I'm not an X-Men fan so I just noted that she still looked beautiful and went back to reading my book. lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

I do remember seeing her when my husband was watching X-Men, but I'm not an X-Men fan so I just noted that she still looked beautiful and went back to reading my book. lol

Well from an X-Men fan, she was perfect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Sophie and Nicolaj are both really good with the subtle facial expressions and body language.  I haven't seen ST in anything else, but I don't see how anyone can say she's a bad actress in GoT.  She has a very commanding presence.  It doesn't hurt that she is so beautiful either!

True and I definitely feel Sophie has improved a lot over the seasons. Nicolaj was pretty solid to begin with.

That said,  I think Maisie and Lena are better than both Sophie and Nicolas when it comes to facial expressions and body language. Maisie can convey so many emotions in a single look effectively and has done so many times (at the crossroads, meeting Nymeria, killing Walder Frey, etc, but even in general conversations she had with Tywin or Gendry in S2, the Hound in S4, etc).

Lena's brilliance is not in displaying multiple emotions, but the extremities of one emotion in a single look. Cersei is not a conflicted character, but she is entertaining and exaggerated. The pure joy and satisfaction when the sept exploded, to the evil pleasure in torturing Septa Unella, etc.

Edited by Gaz0680

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

This might be unpopular, but Sansa being this amazing ruler of Winterfell really irks me. Where did she learn these skills? Bran - original recipe Bran - was trained to rule Winterfell in s2 and Jon had experience ruling/managing as Lord Commander. But in show!Sansa hasn't had anything, all her training has been in politics and scheming, and Southern politics for that matter at Kings Landing. 

 

I think much of the differences in Sansa's upbringing between the show and books are elision for reasons of time rather than substance.  I think we can assume that Sansa was raised to be a lady and that includes some understanding of the management of a great household.

I do agree with you though that Sansa has been much too infected with the scheming worldview of people like Cersei, Littlefinger, and Olenna (not wanting to put words in your mouth but I think that's implied a bit in what you said).  There is too much of the "I'm going to do what will strengthen my position and shun the naivete of questions of right and wrong" to her and I think part of what's coming in the episodes ahead is a battle for Sansa's soul as she is brought to realize that the right and wrong battle that Jon sees himself in and the corresponding worldview he had and probably Arya and Bran share to some degree actually is more important that Littlefingerrsque considerations of personal advantage. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

19 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I expect the books will have different endings for some characters, and I can't help wondering if the overall story might end differently as well.  The show started to divert from the books so much in S5.  It would be kind of cool actually - two stories in one.

I thought about Arya getting control of a castle, but I can't see her being happy dealing with the day to day logistics of running a castle.  I like the idea of her being a champion for the common folk better.  And her experiences have enabled her to relate to them well.

Hope you are wrong about what D&D will do.  I like the fact that she is a badass fighter, but I want her to be more than that.  For one I want them to develop her relationship and warging ability with Nymeria.

I hope I am wrong on that score too, I really do. Unfortunately, recent history in the show and the way they are cantering the plot on Dany, Jon and Cersei does not bode well for development of other characters much more. They are rushing this, yet still spend so much time on pointless crap or unnecessary recalls of previous season events (Arya at the gates for example, pointless scene. Would have been much better to show her and Sansa together longer (like they did with Jon/Sansa) and indicate they've actually discussed with each other what's been going on (without reselling story on screen).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Me too.  I am all for House Stark!  I think I actually liked Robb the least of the whole family.

 I think I like all of them equally lol. Even Theon (though not a Stark),  I kinda wish he could come back, but I know nobody would want him. Maybe Sansa would be able to take him back.

Sansa is very refreshing, yes she can be ruthless, and plays games, but she is distinctively different from Dany and Cersei.  I feel like Sansa would be very good queen in comparison. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now