Discussing Sansa XXX: Sun and Moon

[SansaJonRule]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

I knew someone was going to comment on the last part lol

Yea, the show really wanted to home in the fact that Sansa learned a lot from Cersei (I actually really like Cersei too). Honestly, I didn't really like the squabbling between her and Jon, seemed very out of place, and I felt that both of them are smarter than that. But, I think she will start to loosen up a little more and to be more trusting of others as the episodes progress.

But, yea she hasn't really inspired anyone but I think she has it in her.  She has Brienne, and I think the North and Bronze Royce are really warming up to her.  

No Sansa doesn't have the confidence yet and still has a lot to learn, but Dany is too confident.  On her own she would have failed a long time ago and doesn't seem to realize that. (Every good ruler has good advisors and listens to them).  Dany inspired the slaves she freed in Essos, but as far as Westerosis, only a handful so far.  Jorah, Barrister Selmy, Varys and Tyrion.  The others who joined her only did so out of need so far.  I was going to say Sansa at least has the Stark name, but I guess in the South that wouldn't count for much.  But yeah, I think there are some who are beginning to respect her in the north.  If Sansa comes through everything she's been through as a strong but compassionate woman, she could inspire a lot of people.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

No Sansa doesn't have the confidence yet and still has a lot to learn, but Dany is too confident.  On her own she would have failed a long time ago and doesn't seem to realize that. (Every good ruler has good advisors and listens to them).  Dany inspired the slaves she freed in Essos, but as far as Westerosis, only a handful so far.  Jorah, Barrister Selmy, Varys and Tyrion.  The others who joined her only did so out of need so far.  I was going to say Sansa at least has the Stark name, but I guess in the South that wouldn't count for much.  But yeah, I think there are some who are beginning to respect her in the north.  If Sansa comes through everything she's been through as a strong but compassionate woman, she could inspire a lot of people.

I think Dany is way too confident in her power versus Sansa who is a little less confident in her power than she maybe should be.

Dany seems to have acquired this "I am the rightful queen so people should be following me" and "I'm not going to give an inch because this is rightfully mine" which obviously  worked out soooo well with Stannis

 

Sansa seems to be a lot less confident in the solidity of her power but she seems to be doing better despite that fact--not as of yet making the rash decisions her predecessors in power (Dany, Cersei, etc.) made to assure themselves.

 

I think it would be very interesting if Dany actually died during the War for Dawn...

[SansaJonRule]

14 minutes ago, Crona said:

I am actually rooting for Cersei, I enjoy her trolling Dany more than anything. 

I really don't like Tyene or sand snakes, they really butchered Dorne. And Dorne is my favorite kingdom in the books, and I just kind of want the Dorne to be gone from the show now. I will forever be rustled by the show cutting Arriane and Aegon.

Yea, I remember a lot of people didn't like Cat, but I can actually see her viewpoint, and  I saw her more as a doting mother than someone trying to undermine Robb. I think Sansa would have more of a protector role of the family in a political way.  I didn't know what role she will play in the White Walker war, but I think she will be the glue that holds her family together

I am enjoying watching the war seem to go Cersei's way, then Dany's.  Evens the playing field between them.  But ultimately I don't want either of them on the IT.

Of course their is always the possibility there will be no more IT, and Westeros goes back to multiple kingdoms, just like Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.

I wouldn't call Cat doting, more like a mother bear!  But yeah, her motivation wasn't to undermine Robb, but that's how it would look to military men.

I agree about Sansa and her role in her family.  She has a hard exterior, but I think losing half of her family she will want them to stay together that much more.

[SansaJonRule]

28 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think Dany is way too confident in her power versus Sansa who is a little less confident in her power than she maybe should be.

Dany seems to have acquired this "I am the rightful queen so people should be following me" and "I'm not going to give an inch because this is rightfully mine" which obviously  worked out soooo well with Stannis

 

Sansa seems to be a lot less confident in the solidity of her power but she seems to be doing better despite that fact--not as of yet making the rash decisions her predecessors in power (Dany, Cersei, etc.) made to assure themselves.

 

I think it would be very interesting if Dany actually died during the War for Dawn...

Dany basically inherited her entitlement attitude from her brother, which is kind of ironic considering she thought he was weak and stupid.

The thing I find really ironic is that Missendei says she serves Dany because she wants to, and that they all chose her as their queen because they believed in her (she freed them from slavery, of course they do), not because she is the daughter of some king they never knew, while the whole basis for Dany's claim to the IT is because of her parentage and they are there to help her conquer Westeros.  When she said that I thought, Uh, M, did you just hear what you said?  Why shouldn't the people of Westeros have the right to choose their ruler instead of having someone they don't know forced on them?

I can't see Dany dying during the War for the Dawn.  I think there has to be a final power struggle.

I don't see Sansa as wanting power so much at this point, as authority and respect.  She clearly seems to like being in charge while Jon's away, but I think she knows she is not ready for real power yet.  I think she is trying to learn everything she can so that some day she can be lady of a great house (or more), but her immediate focus is on preparing her people for the upcoming war.  She's smart enough to know if they don't win that, nothing else matters. 

[Crona]

52 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I am enjoying watching the war seem to go Cersei's way, then Dany's.  Evens the playing field between them.  But ultimately I don't want either of them on the IT.

Of course their is always the possibility there will be no more IT, and Westeros goes back to multiple kingdoms, just like Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.

I don't want either of them on the IT, and if Varys, Tyrion, and Jaime are clever they would depose of both Dany and Cersei and put someone else on the IT.   But, they all for some reason forgot their morals and blindly follow them.

I would actually like it better if they became their own kingdoms too at the end

But, I am a pessimistic person, and they are going to protray Dany as the savior and she will end up on the IT, I guarantee it.

[SansaJonRule]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

My only consolation is that the episodes are slightly longer

Whoopee, 5 minutes each. 

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

I always felt so bad for Theon. Talk about rock and hard place.  And man did he suffer for his choices...

 

Queen Sansa would be so great. I think out of the three she'd probably be the best. Something I like is though she's very politically savvy now and ruthless she also has managed to keep some of her old compassion.

Disproportionately to his crimes, even as bad as his crimes were.

[SansaJonRule]

6 minutes ago, Crona said:

I don't want either of them on the IT, and if Varys, Tyrion, and Jaime are clever they would depose of both Dany and Cersei and put someone else on the IT.   But, they all for some reason forgot their morals and blindly follow them.

I would actually like it better if they became their own kingdoms too at the end

But, I am a pessimistic person, and they are going to protray Dany as the savior and she will end up on the IT, I guarantee it.

Well, Jaime has never been real strong in his moral convictions.  Only when it doesn't cause problems.

I hope you are wrong, but I fear you are not.

[Pandean]

14 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Whoopee, 5 minutes each. 

Disproportionately to his crimes, even as bad as his crimes were.

I mean I'll take what I can get. 

 

And yeah, definitely disproportionately to his crimes.

 

[Crona]

26 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Well, Jaime has never been real strong in his moral convictions.  Only when it doesn't cause problems.

I hope you are wrong, but I fear you are not.

Jaime will always have a soft spot for me, dude ended up doing the right thing and was ridiculed. I feel like the Sept of Baelor should have made Jaime wake up to Cersei.

Ah, I'm just being a negative Nancy, and I hope I am wrong too!

[Iron Mother]

This is the Sansa thread?  OK I still have not ever received even a response to my constant chatter about Sansa's inappropriate blaming of Littlefinger for all things Ramsey.  I don't care how many times I have to say this!  Before LF salvaged her from King's Landing, she was a frightened, naive little girl prisoner. 

He never forced himself on her.
He never harmed her.
He brought her to safety in The Vale.
He did not know Ramsey at all.
She chose to marry Ramsey.
She had the strength to escape because of the things LF taught her.
She turned to LF for help and he saved the North with his army.
Sansa is home and safe because of Littlefinger.

He has his own agenda and always has.  He is probably playing her.  But everything above is true, we all saw it happen.  Sansa has no gratitude or respect for anything he did for her.  She has no ability to realize she is the strong woman she is because of Littlefinger. 

Honestly, I used to like Sansa and have a (not pity) a "woe" for what all she was going through, then I was sort of championing her for becoming more wise and stronger, and then at some point (I'm just going to say it) I just thought she became a whining beyotch.  Blaming others for her PTSD and being extremely high-horsed with her new-found "worldly wisdom" while eschewing the person who taught her how to think that way.

She acts now like only she knows the right way, Jon is an idiot and should be listening to her, she has these clever quips at LF - always with hate and spite.  She's going to clash with Arya.   Oh I forgot to mention how Jeyne Poole weeps somewhere in the Neck.

Why is LF responsible for all things Ramsey?
 

 

[SansaJonRule]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Jaime will always have a soft spot for me, dude ended up doing the right thing and was ridiculed. I feel like the Sept of Baelor should have made Jaime wake up to Cersei.

Ah, I'm just being a negative Nancy, and I hope I am wrong too!

I assume you are referring to him killing the mad king and you are right there. He was worse than ridiculed. 

[Crona]

6 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

This is the Sansa thread?  OK I still have not ever received even a response to my constant chatter about Sansa's inappropriate blaming of Littlefinger for all things Ramsey.  I don't care how many times I have to say this!  Before LF salvaged her from King's Landing, she was a frightened, naive little girl prisoner. 

He never forced himself on her.
He never harmed her.
He brought her to safety in The Vale.
He did not know Ramsey at all.
She chose to marry Ramsey.
She had the strength to escape because of the things LF taught her.
She turned to LF for help and he saved the North with his army.
Sansa is home and safe because of Littlefinger.

He has his own agenda and always has.  He is probably playing her.  But everything above is true, we all saw it happen.  Sansa has no gratitude or respect for anything he did for her.  She has no ability to realize she is the strong woman she is because of Littlefinger. 

Honestly, I used to like Sansa and have a (not pity) a "woe" for what all she was going through, then I was sort of championing her for becoming more wise and stronger, and then at some point (I'm just going to say it) I just thought she became a whining beyotch.  Blaming others for her PTSD and being extremely high-horsed with her new-found "worldly wisdom" while eschewing the person who taught her how to think that way.

She acts now like only she knows the right way, Jon is an idiot and should be listening to her, she has these clever quips at LF - always with hate and spite.  She's going to clash with Arya. 

Why is LF responsible for all things Ramsey?
 

 

I like Sansa, I think she has grown quite a bit and has gained a lot of awareness. She's still learning though and still needs to do a lot more.

I don't think LF is responsible for all things Ramsey, only thing is he failed to tell her what a monster he is. (Whether he knew or not) And we the audience knows, he was playing her. And  I think she is being cautious of him, and not trusting him which is the right thing to do.

But, yea I can see your point of view, and its valid. Sometimes I think the show likes to protray Sansa as a person that's scheming and wants to undermine Jon. And its quite irritating when it's portrayed in that manner

[Mladen]

8 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

Arya serving Sansa would be terrible, agreed. And a waste of her character arc. This might be unpopular, but Sansa being this amazing ruler of Winterfell really irks me. Where did she learn these skills? Bran - original recipe Bran - was trained to rule Winterfell in s2 and Jon had experience ruling/managing as Lord Commander. But in show!Sansa hasn't had anything, all her training has been in politics and scheming, and Southern politics for that matter at Kings Landing. (Which differs from book!Sansa who learned a lot about managing households etc. at the Vale, but again in the South). Did Ramsay give her lessons off-screen in s5? Making Sansa the Stark most connected to Winterfell and the one rallying the North - despite her failure to get support from the Northern lords last season - doesn't make much sense. Jon has been in the North and learning leadership skills for 6 seasons, Bran spent a decent amount of time at Winterfell in s2 and has been reconnecting with the old gods and culture (before becoming not-Bran obviously) and Arya was far more Northern and Stark-like to begin with and has been all over the place. Sansa has been learning how the South works, not the North which are pretty different. 

As has been said countless times, in Winterfell, from Septa Mordane and Maester Luwin. There is more to being a Lady of Great House than just knitting. This is a consequence of people thinking that all Sansa did before going to KL was singing, dancing and knitting. She had the very best education in the country and she learned how to be a Lady from the beginning. 

As for show, we have seen Septa Mordane training her for the role of the Queen. Of course, it lacks the practicality but still, Sansa learned a lot from her teachers. Book Sansa learned those things in WF and I suppose TV Sansa did too.

Being more Northern (and Arya is not more Northern, she just have, to say, interests that are pro-Northern) doesn't necessarily make one a good ruler, or a wise person. That is what I keep reading on these threads and I can't understand where it comes from. Sansa is not an outsider in Winterfell or North, she lived there, her family ruled the North for thousands of years. Yes, she wanted to be a Queen, she wanted to be a proper Southorn lady, but those were childish dreams. Bran wanted to be a knight. Arya named her direwolf after Rhoynar queen. These kids are of the North and they belong to the North. They are different (if they would be the same, there would be no point of having three different characters) and just like each wolf in the pack has its own role, each of the Stark children will have their own role to play.

[Iron Mother]

4 minutes ago, Crona said:

I like Sansa, I think she has grown quite a bit and has gained a lot of awareness. She's still learning though and still needs to do a lot more.

I don't think LF is responsible for all things Ramsey, only thing is he failed to tell her what a monster he is. (Whether he knew or not) And we the audience knows, he was playing her. And  I think she is being cautious of him, and not trusting him which is the right thing to do.

But, yea I can see your point of view, and its valid. Sometimes I think the show likes to protray Sansa as a person that's scheming and wants to undermine Jon. And its quite irritating when it's portrayed in that manner

But when you say that (highlighted in your post) you buy into the show's portrayal that Sansa is somehow correct in her complete hatred toward Littlefinger.  So much so, she stood there with Brienne and threatened to let Brienne kill him because of what Ramsey did to her.

We all saw the show.  We all saw LF did not know Ramsey and had only met him for the first time and then left for King's Landing.  Why are we buying into this bare-naked plot device created for Sophie Turner when she was basically given a Jeyne Poole script and then the audience is made to believe her hatred of LF is valid.  It isn't!

Who here can say Sansa would be the strong woman she is right now if not for LF?  Who will say this openly in front of everyone?  It's more shit writing.  What else would Sansa be doing right now if she wasn't hating LF?  Sitting around the Vale giving Sweet Robyn a breast and reading the Winged Knight again.  Or wait.... she might still be in King's Landing - but dead because she would have probably been in the sept when Cersei blew it up.  Or spared the sept bombing held ransom by Cersei to Jon in the North.

She owes everything she now has and is to Littlefinger.  I dare anyone to say otherwise.  Obviously this issue strikes my last nerve.

[Crona]

3 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

But when you say that (highlighted in your post) you buy into the show's portrayal that Sansa is somehow correct in her complete hatred toward Littlefinger.  So much so, she stood there with Brienne and threatened to let Brienne kill him because of what Ramsey did to her.

We all saw the show.  We all saw LF did not know Ramsey and had only met him for the first time and then left for King's Landing.  Why are we buying into this bare-naked plot device created for Sophie Turner when she was basically given a Jeyne Poole script and then the audience is made to believe her hatred of LF is valid.  It isn't!

Who here can say Sansa would be the strong woman she is right now if not for LF?  Who will say this openly in front of everyone?  It's more shit writing.  What else would Sansa be doing right now if she wasn't hating LF?  Sitting around the Vale giving Sweet Robyn a breast and reading the Winged Knight again.  Or wait.... she might still be in King's Landing - but dead because she would have probably been in the sept when Cersei blew it up.  Or spared the sept bombing held ransom by Cersei to Jon in the North.

She owes everything she now has and is to Littlefinger.  I dare anyone to say otherwise.  Obviously this issue strikes my last nerve.

Yea, I just think in Sansa's mind, that a person like LF who knows so much information, would have known what kind of person Ramsey is and just omitted it. It's not to say that LF knew what kind of person Ramsey was, but in Sansa's mind she thinks LF knew who he was and had done it anyway. Even if he were to say that he didn't know, why would she trust him? He's known for playing the game, and she can't tell if he's lying or not. I just took it that way.

You're right, she doesn't really have much power without LF but she's not obligated to say thank you to him or anything. It's not like she's telling the Vale to stay, they can leave anytime they want.

[Iron Mother]

8 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yea, I just think in Sansa's mind, that a person like LF who knows so much information, would have known what kind of person Ramsey is and just omitted it. It's not to say that LF knew what kind of person Ramsey was, but in Sansa's mind she thinks LF knew who he was and had done it anyway. Even if he were to say that he didn't know, why would she trust him? He's known for playing the game, and she can't tell if he's lying or not. I just took it that way.

You're right, she doesn't really have much power without LF but she's not obligated to say thank you to him or anything. It's not like she's telling the Vale to stay, they can leave anytime they want.

I have to say...... here it is again.  I highlighted in your own text above.  LF "done" what?  Sansa chose of her own free will to go to Winterfell.  Not one time did LF ever force her to do anything.  We need to stop buying into the idea LF is responsible for the Woes of Sansa.

I am not saying she needs to thank him, she needs to be less hateful toward him and to me that be a form of respect for all he gave to her.  I'm just upset the show is going to murder him in a Sansa spite rage/plot with Arya and I said you WILL hear me screaming at PST if that happens.

[Thor Odinson]

It's completely absurd to think that Littlefinger had no idea what kind of person Ramsey was. This is a guy who has spies everywhere. He doesn't have to meet someone to have already been aware of all their deepest darkest secrets. Remember, Ramsey is the sort of guy who mailed Theon's penis and testicles to his family in the Iron Islands. There is no way Ramsey's psychopathic tendencies flew under Littlefinger's radar. He absolutely knew what he was getting Sansa into.

And we're giving him points for not raping Sansa? Bravo, what a hero...

[Crona]

36 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I have to say...... here it is again.  I highlighted in your own text above.  LF "done" what?  Sansa chose of her own free will to go to Winterfell.  Not one time did LF ever force her to do anything.  We need to stop buying into the idea LF is responsible for the Woes of Sansa.

I am not saying she needs to thank him, she needs to be less hateful toward him and to me that be a form of respect for all he gave to her.  I'm just upset the show is going to murder him in a Sansa spite rage/plot with Arya and I said you WILL hear me screaming at PST if that happens.

Lol, ok yea technically she did choose to go to Ramsey. Which is wrong of her to do, she should have asked for information about him. I don't think he is responsible for the woes of Sansa, and I honestly don't know why he's still in Winterfell. She despises LF for this, because she thinks he is responsible and I as an audience do not care because he does deserve it

She's not obligated to give him any respect, she didn't promise it and she's not asking anything from him anything now

[Gaz0680]

32 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I have to say...... here it is again.  I highlighted in your own text above.  LF "done" what?  Sansa chose of her own free will to go to Winterfell.  Not one time did LF ever force her to do anything.  We need to stop buying into the idea LF is responsible for the Woes of Sansa.

I am not saying she needs to thank him, she needs to be less hateful toward him and to me that be a form of respect for all he gave to her.  I'm just upset the show is going to murder him in a Sansa spite rage/plot with Arya and I said you WILL hear me screaming at PST if that happens.

LF never forced her, but he sure as hell manipulated her and now Sansa has wised up to that fact. She has plenty of genuine reasons to both mistrust and dislike/hate LF.

Also, Littlefinger knew what Ramsey was. No way in hell he didnt know. As Sansa said to him, if he didnt know, he was an idiot. LF is no idiot. He 100% knew what Ramsey was and what Sansa would be subjected to.

[Crona]

20 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

LF never forced her, but he sure as hell manipulated her and now Sansa has wised up to that fact. She has plenty of genuine reasons to both mistrust and dislike/hate LF.

Also, Littlefinger knew what Ramsey was. No way in hell he didnt know. As Sansa said to him, if he didnt know, he was an idiot. LF is no idiot. He 100% knew what Ramsey was and what Sansa would be subjected to.

Exactly, even if LF had nothing to do with it, she still is justified to be suspicious because of his nature, its not like he has kept it a secret that he's a manipulator. 

And she doesn't owe LF anything, he can leave anytime he wants.