Risto

Discussing Sansa XXX: Sun and Moon

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25 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

I think in most of the Jon and Sansa conflicts - what to do with the Karstarks, whether to meet with Dany - they've both had fair points. The problem has been framing those arguments as Sansa arguing with Jon in front of all the Northern lords. Literally Leadership Collaboration 101 is don't air disagreements in front of your people. It made Sansa look either stupid in inadvertently undermining Jon, or manipulative in doing it deliberately. 

And just like in Episode 2, you would think Jon would counsel with Sansa and Davos before making a decision THAT important. So you see her being quiet, until she literally can't keep her mouth shut and she bursts out. Politically, in those 2 scenes, both of them looked rather naive and stupid, but it also shows the love and devotion they have. And in Game, sometimes, that is all you need. 

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But Sansa establishing WF as the home base of the war reminds me of my favourite Sansa scenes in s2 during the Battle of Blackwater when she kept the women and "civilians" calm during the battle. (And proved to be stronger than many of them despite her age). Her taking on that role during the Battle of the Dawn while the rest of her family are out fighting/warging would be a nice continuum. 

Well, Sansa is also a warg. How will Martin incorporate that into her story, it remains to be seen. I think that show will discard that element of the story, all together. Not just for her, but perhaps for Jon and Arya too. But, yes, her being back organizing things and making sure army gets its supplies would be a nice role for her. Much like Eowyn during Battle at Helm's Deep. 

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(Also, is Ned's honour is a Northern trait? It seems more specific to Ned. And if he got it from anyone it was other father figure - the also notoriously honourable Jon Arryn - and from partly growing up in the "as high as honour" Arryn Vale).

Yes, honor is more like Ned's trait, than some Northern value. It seems that he drew it more from the time he spent in Vale, we see how Vale regard honor (none of them would actually disobey Lysa's orders). So, it does seem that Ned's honor is also a product of his upbringing in Vale.

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Ironically, the most explicit person Arya takes after - at least explicitly in the books - is Lyanna, with Ned saying outright that she takes after her in looks, personality, and interests. And in the show does present the parallels between Lyanna and Arya in their scenes at WF, with Lyanna riding around in boys clothes.

Yeah, Arya resembles Lyanna, but I was always more interested to see how Sansa's story parallels Lyanna's too

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13 minutes ago, Risto said:

And just like in Episode 2, you would think Jon would counsel with Sansa and Davos before making a decision THAT important. So you see her being quiet, until she literally can't keep her mouth shut and she bursts out. Politically, in those 2 scenes, both of them looked rather naive and stupid, but it also shows the love and devotion they have. And in Game, sometimes, that is all you need. 

Well, Sansa is also a warg. How will Martin incorporate that into her story, it remains to be seen. I think that show will discard that element of the story, all together. Not just for her, but perhaps for Jon and Arya too. But, yes, her being back organizing things and making sure army gets its supplies would be a nice role for her. Much like Eowyn during Battle at Helm's Deep. 

Yes, honor is more like Ned's trait, than some Northern value. It seems that he drew it more from the time he spent in Vale, we see how Vale regard honor (none of them would actually disobey Lysa's orders). So, it does seem that Ned's honor is also a product of his upbringing in Vale.

I assumed Jon had talked to Sansa and Davos before. If he hasn't he seriously needs to have pre-meeting chats with them.

Is Sansa a warg in the books? We see Arya, Jon, Bran and Robb warging (and I think Rickon?) but from memory there isn't any time when Sansa does. The direwolves are how most of them start warging, but with Lady dead Sansa hasn't developed that ability. She obviously has the potential to be one, but with her direwolf gone she hasn't developed that ability. 

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

Yeah, Arya resembles Lyanna, but I was always more interested to see how Sansa's story parallels Lyanna's too

Answering the Lyanna/Sansa parallels separately because I've seen this argument a lot and it drives me crazy. 

Lyanna cries over singing = Sansa

  • 1. Yes Sansa's more sentimental but that completely ignores the follow up of Lyanna crying.... pouring wine over Benjen's head for teasing her. Never, never, NEVER in a million years would Sansa do that. Not at a public Southern tourney and feast. You know who would do that? Arya.The Sansa parallel lasts Iess than a sentence before Lyanna's Arya aspects pop up again.
  • 2. The fact Benjen bothered to tease Lyanna at all suggests it was out of character for her. I can't see the Stark boys teasing Sansa for crying as it's the kind of thing she'd be likely to do all the time and wouldn't be ashamed of it. No point in teasing her. Teasing little I'm-super-tough-songs-are-stupid Arya for crying though? Yes. 
  • 3."Sang a song SO sad it made the wolf maid sniffle" - This hammers home that the song was exceptional in being able to make Lyanna cry. (And foreshadowing later events rather than Lyanna's sentimental personality).
  • 4. Arya likes songs, not as much as Sansa but she does: Nymeria, Wenda the White Fawn. For all we know Rhaeger was singing a Nymeria/Wenda fanfic. (I kid, I kid). And Arya cries quite a lot throughout the books, often over petty things as seen in her first chapter over needlework and her Septa.

Lyanna and Sansa Defend the Weak:

  • 1. Yes, Sansa does defend Dontas. That was a great scene and compassionate move. But "defending the weak" is a recurring trend/theme for Arya, while Sansa it was rarer. With Arya there's Mycah, Weasel, going back for Gendry, saving the Northernmen, hanging out with the defenders-of-the-helpess Brotherhood wo Banners, saving Sam in Braavos, "they should have killed the masters not the slaves." Arya's story is entwined with defending/befriending the oppressed and downtrodden. Sansa's is not.
  • 2. Arya and Lyanna had much more similar approaches in their defining Mycah/Howland scenes in physically beating off the attacker. Sansa's approach was very different in using diplomacy and flattery. A good call, but very different. "Saved someone once" is a pretty loose thematic parallel.

Lyanna and Sansa Crowned Queen of Love and Beauty:

  • Lyanna gets a crown from a prince who spurns his wife? Sansa gets a rose - not even a proper crowning - from a probably-gay guy? And Lyanna and Sansa both (might have) talked to their possible-love interests after a tourney? Idk, this seems like a weak connection. There are a lot of tourneys.

Romance, love and flowers:

  • 1. Sansa and flowers. Flowers are present in Arya's story as well. She brings Ned flowers - Ned who brings Lyanna's statue flowers. And Arya is the one excited by new plants and flowers when they're travelling, not Sansa. 
  • 2. Yes, Arya once told Ned Dayne "love is stupid" but in the same conversation (I think? Certainly she said it to Ned) she was offended by the idea that her father loved anyone else ever and truly believed in her parent's love story. You can't take that as a blanket statement of Arya's views for love. Especially when she's 9 and Lyanna as 15/16. Big difference. You can't assume she'll never love or have romance. (Plus there's a whole other issue about Arya's insecurities about her appearance and being lovable). 

Sansa/Joffrey = Lyanna/Rhaegar:

  • 1. We still don't know the full Lyanna/Rhaegar story. We can't assume it was as simple as Lyanna being blinded by "love" Rhaeger as Sansa was for Joffrey. We don't know "we have a Stark who fell in love with the Crown Prince she objectively knew nothing about and eloped with him" We don't know that. There were a lot of other factors/possibilities: The prophecy and Rhaeger trying to "solve it", the possibility it was a kidnapping, Lyanna might just have been running away and Rhaeger gave her an escape route of some sort. We can't assume Lyanna viewed Rhaeger like Sansa did Joffrey.
  • 2. Even if we do say it's a love story then things are still different: Most of Sansa's romantic feelings for Joffrey weren't "on the damage of her own family." It was an arranged marriage. It was in the Stark's interests for Sansa to love and please Joffrey. She was being obedient and the perfect lady and wife in her treatment of him. The exact opposite of running off with a married prince when you were engaged to another lord. It was only at literally the eleventh hour that Joffrey became "forbidden" and Sansa betrayed the Starks. (And she didn't realise the consequences of her actions, if Lyanna did elope with Rhaeger then she did realise the consequences and wasn't being dutiful to literally anyone).
  • 3. Apart from being Princes there aren't really similarities between Joffrey and Rhaeger. One is a monster and one mostly perceived as intelligent and noble. Sansa was arranged to marry her Prince, Lyanna's Prince was forbidden.  

Lyanna rejected Robert = Sansa rejected Tyrion:

  • 1. Sansa was horrified at having to marry a dwarf old enough to be her father after she'd been prisoner to his abusive family for months. Lyanna didn't want to marry a young, handsome lord who was a good match and arranged by her family. Very different situations.
  • 2. Sansa resisted Tyrion yes, she didn't reject him and she didn't run away. She endured. Again, going with the Lyanna-went-willingly version, Lyanna ran, she rebelled and she got out of there. A much more blatant rebellion. 
  • 3. A far better equivalent is Sansa's reaction to Joffrey. Both Sansa and Lyanna were faced with marrying a young, handsome noble who was friends with the family and give them great status. Sansa was overjoyed and Lyanna was unhappy. Both were faced with unpleasant truths about their betrothed: Joffrey was a monster and Robert was unfaithful. How did they respond? Sansa the romantic rewrote events, idealized Joffrey and convinced herself he was wonderful and she loved him. Lyanna was clear-eyed, cynical and commented that love couldn't change a man's nature. Completely opposite reactions. 
  • 4. What character saw Joffrey was what he was and is unusually perceptive, good at reading people's intentions/true character and isn't blinded by looks or status? Arya.

Sansa would be more likely to run off than Arya:

  • 1. Again, assuming that Lyanna deliberately ran away with Rhaeger....That doesn't seem like Sansa. That seems far more likely for Arya. 
  • 2. See point above - we see how Sansa responded to an arranged marriage with a good prospect. She was all for it, she never even considered running away. Sansa was repeatedly characterised as dutiful and eager to please and lives by society's standards. Her causing the scandal of the century by running off with a married guy/someone unsuitable? No way. Totally out of character. Not if she was in Lyanna's situation as a privileged and noble lady. Sansa convinced herself her situation/match was good rather than fled from it.
  • 3. But picture 15 or 16 year old Arya being faced with an arranged marriage to a guy whose character she didn't like? Running away seems very in-character for the infamously wilful Stark daughter. Or Arya falling in love with someone unsuitable? I will give you that her falling in love with a Prince is unlikely, but hey it depends on the Prince's personality. And her falling in love with someone unsuitable for her seems very likely.
  • 4. Man you know who did run off or think about running off multiple times? (Before everything went to hell for the Starks). Arya. Her opening chapter has her running away from her Septa, she runs off after the Trident incident, she fantasies about running off  while in KL. If one of the Stark girls has running *screw all this* and escaping expectations attitude it's Arya.

Saw the Beauty but not the Iron Underneath:

  • 1. Ned's comment about Robert not seeing Lyanna's iron seemed far more about Robert's blindness than Lyanna hiding her iron. The point was how Robert idealised Lyanna's memory and never knew her. 
  • 2. From everything we hear, Lyanna didn't seem to "hide" her iron. She publicly tipped wine over Benjen, she beat squires off in the open. (Again, the comparison of how she defended the weak vs. Sansa's approach). There's little indication she hid her true strength under her courtsey and beauty like Sansa did.
  • 3. Yes Sansa and Lyanna are beautiful. But Arya's heading that way too, more and more characters comment on her looks and it's her who is explicitly said to look like Lyanna - the "wild" and "Northern" beauty. (And was said to be boyish). 

Sansa = Romantic Side of Lyanna and Arya = Wild Side of Lyanna

  • 1. Again, no indication Lyanna was a romantic, she seemed cynical and realistic about Robert. There's no indication she has these "two opposing sides." 
  • 2. In the same conversation Ned tells Arya that she's so similar to Lyanna, he says Sansa and Arya are as "different as the sun and moon." That doesn't add up. "Arya you're the opposite of your sister! And almost exactly like Lyanna!" = "Sansa is like Lyanna". 
  • 3. Arya several times is compared to Lyanna: By Ned, by Harwin, by Bran when he sees Lyanna. Arya is closest to Lyanna's son. No one in text ever compares Sansa and Lyanna. 
Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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2 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

 

I think in most of the Jon and Sansa conflicts - what to do with the Karstarks, whether to meet with Dany - they've both had fair points. The problem has been framing those arguments as Sansa arguing with Jon in front of all the Northern lords. Literally Leadership Collaboration 101 is don't air disagreements in front of your people. It made Sansa look either stupid in inadvertently undermining Jon, or manipulative in doing it deliberately. 

You guys have won me over on Sansa being a good Lady of Winterfell. As long as they lay off the ott "look how awesome Sansa is!": Like you said, just Sansa knowing how to ask those questions was enough to establish her intelligence. And I rolled my eyes at Arya's "it suits you!!!" a minute after seeing Sansa as Lady Stark.

But Sansa establishing WF as the home base of the war reminds me of my favourite Sansa scenes in s2 during the Battle of Blackwater when she kept the women and "civilians" calm during the battle. (And proved to be stronger than many of them despite her age). Her taking on that role during the Battle of the Dawn while the rest of her family are out fighting/warging would be a nice continuum. 

I guess with Jon and whether he'd be a good king, one of the ongoing questions in the series is what's motivating people do be king and is the best ruler the one who wants the throne? Maybe the irony will be that Jon doesn't want the throne but takes it out of duty to care for the people, after so many others were desperate to rule. And we really don't know about Arya, her plot hasn't lent itself to her questioning if she wants to rule. (More: Will I die today?) She'd hate being a Lady or the traditional Queen wife role, but ironically in very different circumstances she could make a good "King" at least in the North. But she hasn't had Jon's leadership experience  or Sansa's political training. (Although the books emphasize her leadership aspect, especially via Nymeria, more). But the show obvs isn't heading that way.

 

Yes, while the Northerners do play to an extent it's not nearly to the level of politicking and court intrigue as the Southern kingdoms. The ruralness of the North and how spread out the Houses/families/mountain clans are means there's just not that level of game playing. (And that they were originally from a different culture that has similarities with the Wildings). Ned was particularly naive, but if anything Ned being known as a good and beloved leader of the North and terrible at coping in the South, highlights the difference in leadership between the two.

(Also, is Ned's honour is a Northern trait? It seems more specific to Ned. And if he got it from anyone it was other father figure - the also notoriously honourable Jon Arryn - and from partly growing up in the "as high as honour" Arryn Vale).

 

100% agree with you @SansaJonRule about Arya and Sansa inheriting aspects from both parents, I was just about to comment the same thing. Yes Sansa got Ned's introversion, reflective nature and idealism, but Arya got his sense of justice, concern for the smallfolk and martial interests. Sansa got Catelyn's more feminine interests, sense of duty/decorum, "silk hiding steel" and political savvy, while Arya got her temper, inclination for vengeance, and is more emotional and cynical. It's a really interesting mash. (Likewise we can see how Bran has aspects of both, and Jon manages to take after Lyanna, Rheager and Ned). 

I also like how Sansa and Arya end up in Ned and Cat's other homes/lands apart from the North, with Sansa going to the Vale and Arya spending so much time in the Riverlands. It's another nice parallel/connection to their parents. 

Ironically, the most explicit person Arya takes after - at least explicitly in the books - is Lyanna, with Ned saying outright that she takes after her in looks, personality, and interests. And in the show does present the parallels between Lyanna and Arya in their scenes at WF, with Lyanna riding around in boys clothes.

Arya's wildness, willfulness and rebellion - which are pretty central to her character - seem to be purely from Lyanna, rather than her dutiful, honour-bound and generally-accepting-of-the-rules-of-society parents. And Ned singles Lyanna/Brandon/Arya out as having the "wolf blood" which is very Northern. 

And re: marriage.I wouldn't say Sansa is more suited for marriage and carrying on the Stark line than Arya at this point. They're both horribly traumatized but both still care deeply underneath the stoicism. Yes, Sansa is more traditionally feminine and taking on the woman's role while Arya's a warrior, but Sansa's also still recovering from her abuse and rape at Ramsay's hands which must make her more wary of marrying again. Arya - while recovering from other sorts of abuse - has at least escaped any abusive romances. If she developed feelings for someone - Gendry's the only ones she's had any romantic hints with so far but you never know - and could be a wife on her terms, it isn't inconceivable she'd marry before Sansa. (Not saying Sansa can never fall in love - and she is more likely to agree to an arranged marriage).

And depending on who they married, both might keep the Stark name to preserve the line anyway. Though Jon always has the option of legitimizing himself as a Stark and continuing the line, and was it ever confirmed Bran couldn't have kids? A lot of paraplegics do. So the Stark line isn't as dire as it seems.

I tend to agree with those who say that all things magical will be gone at the end of this story. So White Walkers, dragons, Children of the Forest and other magical non-human beings will all be gone.

However, I do not believe it means all humans with magical abilities (greenseeing, warging, etc) will necessarily be dead. It may just be that they will lose those abilities and have to adjust to a more normal human existence (which would have its own challenges for those characters).

For example, in Bran's case he may very well survive, but lose all his powers. Who knows? His future may lead him back to Meera and if he is not infertile, there is a chance he may yet be the one to continue the Stark line instead of Sansa (the most obvious choice).

 

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20 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

No one in text ever compares Sansa and Lyanna. 

Well, I think that most of your objections boils down to this. When it comes to the modus operandi Martin uses in writing Sansa, it is long-established that he draws a lot of parallels between her and a lot of other characters, Ned, Jon, etc by not pointing them out but by making them as subtle as Sansa's character is. I understand some of the objections you pointed out and my intention with the essay was never to make a case that Sansa is new Lyanna, just that there are elements to Lyanna's story that nicely parallels Sansa. That doesn't take away numerous parallels with Arya, nor does it negate them. More like complements them. 

1 hour ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

I assumed Jon had talked to Sansa and Davos before. If he hasn't he seriously needs to have pre-meeting chats with them.

Is Sansa a warg in the books? We see Arya, Jon, Bran and Robb warging (and I think Rickon?) but from memory there isn't any time when Sansa does. The direwolves are how most of them start warging, but with Lady dead Sansa hasn't developed that ability. She obviously has the potential to be one, but with her direwolf gone she hasn't developed that ability. 

Well, if he did talk, Sansa would not react in the was she did, wouldn't she?

Yes, according to the Martin, all 6 Stark kids are wargs, Sansa included. She has never warged any animal, but she has the power. 

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17 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Sansa got what she wanted and needed from him and she never tried nor did she know to try.... , she was like a little baby in his hands.  As for learning from him, he sat her down and held private tutor lessons for her.  Why did he do that?  It would benefit him more to keep her dumbed down so she would not see his plans coming in advance.

It's too obvious to even point out.  You keep wanting to disagree and I certainly have no issue with that, but your ignorance is very clear.  That is not an insult, people see the word "ignorant" and immediately think it's a drag.  It just means "uninformed" which I believe your viewpoint is on SOME things.  Others, we are on the same page.

Different kind of knowledge from Cersei and the other turmoil.  You give no respect or acknowledgement for him being a kind tutor and basically savior to Sansa when he didn't have to be.  Well, just like her, you ONLY want to put him down because his motives are impure.  I can't think of many in GOT who do everything from the goodness of heart.

Except MEERA!  :D

Yes, Meera and Jojen were both totally selfless, and my heart really broke for Meera when she was saying goodbye to Bran. Can't think of any others off the top of my head, (Brienne is close, but even she serves because she derives satisfaction from it.) which is true to life because how many people are there in this world who are selfless in everything they do? 

Don't worry, I know the difference between ignorant and stupid, so I did not take offense. :D  I understand the basis for your position (although the show never depicted LF giving Sansa private tutoring lessons). The fact that I disagree does not make me ignorant. Your opinion seems to be that because Sansa has benefited (as well as suffered) from LF's actions, even though he admits are all self serving, then he deserves some degree of appreciation.  In my opinion however, if someone does something good for someone else, but it is to further their own self interests, then that person is BAD, and does not deserve any praise or gratitude, period.  End of story.  If you're familiar with the Bible, it's like Jesus calling the Pharisees, who did good works for their people like helping the poor, a brood of vipers because he knew in their hearts they only did good works to get recognition and praise.  Can you see now where I am coming from?  Our difference is philisophical, not one of being informed or ignorant.

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

I tend to agree with those who say that all things magical will be gone at the end of this story. So White Walkers, dragons, Children of the Forest and other magical non-human beings will all be gone.

However, I do not believe it means all humans with magical abilities (greenseeing, warging, etc) will necessarily be dead. It may just be that they will lose those abilities and have to adjust to a more normal human existence (which would have its own challenges for those characters).

For example, in Bran's case he may very well survive, but lose all his powers. Who knows? His future may lead him back to Meera and if he is not infertile, there is a chance he may yet be the one to continue the Stark line instead of Sansa (the most obvious choice).

 

I think one way or another, Westeros/the world is heading into a new age of some sort, where things will be very different.

It's odd because in-universe magic has been thought to be gone for a long time - dragons, white walkers, warging - and from the characters perspective they're seeing magic returning to the world. But I agree it seems likely it's the final surgence of magic before it vanishes - the Wall will probably fall which will be very symbolic - and the characters have to rebuild a new world.

Or alternatively they're ushering in a new age of magic: More dragons are born, half the North turn out to be wargs and the Faceless men teach everyone their mystical ways. But I suspect GRRM will go for a Tolkien-like vibe of "the age of elves and magic is over, make way for the world of men." (And the Targs rule will end once and for all, given they were the leftovers from the very magical Valyria). 

17 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, I think that most of your objections boils down to this. When it comes to the modus operandi Martin uses in writing Sansa, it is long-established that he draws a lot of parallels between her and a lot of other characters, Ned, Jon, etc by not pointing them out but by making them as subtle as Sansa's character is. I understand some of the objections you pointed out and my intention with the essay was never to make a case that Sansa is new Lyanna, just that there are elements to Lyanna's story that nicely parallels Sansa. That doesn't take away numerous parallels with Arya, nor does it negate them. More like complements them. 

Well, if he did talk, Sansa would not react in the was she did, wouldn't she?

Yes, according to the Martin, all 6 Stark kids are wargs, Sansa included. She has never warged any animal, but she has the power. 

Most of my objection isn't that the Lyanna-Sansa parallels aren't explicitly spelled out. GRRM's has parallels between all sorts of characters all over the place with various degrees of obviousness. Sansa certainly has non-explicit parallels to Catelyn, Ned, Jon, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, Dany etc. in different ways. 

The problem I have, is the Lyanna and Sansa parallels in the meta - framing Sansa as an equal half of Lyanna as Arya "Lyanna Stark's yin and yan" -- had to twist all three women out of character to justify those links. Sansa is more likely to run away/rebel than Arya, Arya can't/won't fall in love and has no soft side, Lyanna was a blind romantic,which goes against the more concrete evidence of her. 

Putting aside most of the parallels that depend on mischaracterization, I do get the main storyline parallel  that Sansa and Lyanna both fell in love with a Prince and were held prisoner in the South is there.  But that's a pretty broad connection and a staple of fantasy stories. The books are filled with both people being held prisoner and loving people they shouldn't for various reasons, it's not specific to them.

If we're talking parallels, it's less that "Sansa was one half of Lyanna" and more "Sansa was the inverse of Lyanna." One was dutiful and one rebelled, one went for her arranged marriage, one rejected it. Both suffered anyway. 

Lyanna is an example of GRRM subverting the fairytale tropes. Deconstructing fairytale archetypes is a recurring recurring theme in the books, that is most significant to Sansa, though not exclusive to her character.The books introduce the "song" of Lyanna with her as the maiden in the tower, a helpless victim, and only remembered as a great beauty and the ideal woman. Then we get Ned's perspective and more information and it turns out she was a wild, wilful tomboy - albeit still beautiful - who may not even have been kidnapped at all.

If anything the suggestion is that history has portrayed her as Sansa (the beautiful maiden, innocent, taken prisoner) even if in reality she was more like Arya (a rebellious runaway). 

But re: not negating Arya's parallels, not claiming that Sansa is the new Lyanna and that it's just about the storyline parallels...the meta does do all of 

that: Arya and Sansa represent two faces of Lyanna. Denying one is actually denying Lyanna’s story in complete, for without one, the other part of Lyanna wouldn’t be possible... It certainly downgrades a lot of the Arya/ Lyanna connections and elevates Sansa to an equal representation of Lyanna.

That makes sense if it's framing Sansa as the anti-Lyanna, the inverted version and correlates with Arya and Sansa being foils for each other.  That contrast complements each other. But not "they're equal parts of her character" based on the princes and prisoners tropes. 

If we're doing parallels with Lyanna and Sansa's storyline, then Sansa's story mirrors Elia Martell more than Lyanna: Described as gentle, good, gracious, intelligent and a dutiful wife, went into an arranged marriage with a Prince, he mistreated her, was held prisoner in the Red Keep during war as a pawn, suffered while the castle was under siege, had brothers who desperately wanted to get her to safety and Elia was killed due to the Lannisters - the main perpetrators of Sansa's abuse.

I don't think it's a meaningful parallel but Asoiaf and has so many characters and repeating events that it get's to the point you can draw connections between anything. I read a satirical Hot Pie/Sansa parallel. While non-explicit parallels are present, there's also just circumstantial stuff. 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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3 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, Meera and Jojen were both totally selfless, and my heart really broke for Meera when she was saying goodbye to Bran. Can't think of any others off the top of my head, (Brienne is close, but even she serves because she derives satisfaction from it.) which is true to life because how many people are there in this world who are selfless in everything they do? 

Don't worry, I know the difference between ignorant and stupid, so I did not take offense. :D  I understand the basis for your position (although the show never depicted LF giving Sansa private tutoring lessons). The fact that I disagree does not make me ignorant. Your opinion seems to be that because Sansa has benefited (as well as suffered) from LF's actions, even though he admits are all self serving, then he deserves some degree of appreciation.  In my opinion however, if someone does something good for someone else, but it is to further their own self interests, then that person is BAD, and does not deserve any praise or gratitude, period.  End of story.  If you're familiar with the Bible, it's like Jesus calling the Pharisees, who did good works for their people like helping the poor, a brood of vipers because he knew in their hearts they only did good works to get recognition and praise.  Can you see now where I am coming from?  Our difference is philisophical, not one of being informed or ignorant.

The only way she ever suffered from LF is when you decide to blame her for all things Ramsey.  And his entire time spent with her was a private tutoring lesson.  This has become rehash.  If you want to have the last word, you are welcome to it.

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7 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

The only way she ever suffered from LF is when you decide to blame her for all things Ramsey.  And his entire time spent with her was a private tutoring lesson.  This has become rehash.  If you want to have the last word, you are welcome to it.

Iron Mother, my point was that our disagreement was philosophical, what constitutes a person's actions being worthy of appreciation.  I even asked you Can you see now where I'm coming from?  Did you not read that part?  It's rehash on your part because you're only addressing my parenthetical comments and not the main thrust of my post.

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6 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Iron Mother, my point was that our disagreement was philosophical, what constitutes a person's actions being worthy of appreciation.  I even asked you Can you see now where I'm coming from?  Did you not read that part?  It's rehash on your part because you're only addressing my parenthetical comments and not the main thrust of my post.

I must respond because the bible is as a memory card in my head. 

He did not condemn them for helping the poor but for doing it where everyone could see them doing it. 

When did LF show off his help for or ask Sansa for gratitude?

If someone has benefited from another person to the degree that Sansa has from LF, I think the ultimate least the befitted can do is not threaten to kill them.  The.  Least.  Not stand there threatening to have them killed while describing RAMSEY.

You cannot or will not see RAMSEY is the key thing here.  LF and Ramsey must be separated in this conversation because THAT IS THE SOLE REASON SANSA HATES HIM.  She doesn't hate him for all the rescuing and the provisions and the Vale saving her entire culture or the mentoring or the protection.  SHE HATES HIM FOR RAMSEY.

Will you see that finally?

Ramsey Ramsey Ramsey. Ramsey Ramsey Ramsey. Ramsey Ramsey Ramsey. Ramsey Ramsey Ramsey.
I really do not see where you are coming from except that you want to call the difference "philosophical" instead of "actual". 

Is Sansa "actually" out of King's Landing, not dead by Lysa's hand, back in a Stark-owned Winterfell, the entire North saved, reunited with her remaining family, a wise woman instead of a cowardly child or is she "philosophically" these things?

Please in your next post, first line name WHY DOES SANSA HATE LF?  If your response does not have the word RAMSEY in it, then you are actually AND philosophically incorrect.

 

 

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I know many of you were eagerly following the battle between user SansaJonRule and myself.......... just to tie it up, she invited me over for a talk.... which didn't end well.  Remember The Long Farewell?  She may be posting now, but give it 24hrs :mellow:

oysters clams and cockles!

 

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I demand this forum change my sexist designation.  I want to be "Landed Knightress".

I don't care how it sounds. 

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4 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

Most of my objection isn't that the Lyanna-Sansa parallels aren't explicitly spelled out. GRRM's has parallels between all sorts of characters all over the place with various degrees of obviousness. Sansa certainly has non-explicit parallels to Catelyn, Ned, Jon, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, Dany etc. in different ways. 

The problem I have, is the Lyanna and Sansa parallels in the meta - framing Sansa as an equal half of Lyanna as Arya "Lyanna Stark's yin and yan" -- had to twist all three women out of character to justify those links. Sansa is more likely to run away/rebel than Arya, Arya can't/won't fall in love and has no soft side, Lyanna was a blind romantic,which goes against the more concrete evidence of her. 

It really all depends on how you look on these characters. I believe many things in Sansa's storyline is non-explicit and that is just the way how Martin portrays her and writes her. Just the parallels with Ned, which can be rather obvious, are never even mentioned. And ironically, how of them are very similar. Which is why it is so funny when people think of Ned as proto-Stark and see Sansa as anti-Stark.

I do acknowledge that the essay was done with some conclusions that may not be true, but some facts remain:

1. Sansa DID rebel against Ned when she went to Cersei.

2. Arya DID make a point about her future not being someone who will get married and have bunch of kids. We have also seen that Faceless Men have idea of "not giving life when you take it" so one can argue that Arya's story will not end with a husband and kids. That said, it is not that she is impossible to fall in love, I just question Martin's intentions with it.

3. We have enough evidence to make a case that Lyanna wasn't abducted and that she indeed loved Rhaegar. She wasn't perhaps blind romantic, but perhaps she had her judgement clouded by infatuation.

At the end of the day, time will tell if I was wrong. With the new volumes, we will have Lyanna's story completed and then we won't be making any guesses :D 

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21 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

 

Saw the Beauty but not the Iron Underneath:

  • 1. Ned's comment about Robert not seeing Lyanna's iron seemed far more about Robert's blindness than Lyanna hiding her iron. The point was how Robert idealised Lyanna's memory and never knew her. 
  • 2. From everything we hear, Lyanna didn't seem to "hide" her iron. She publicly tipped wine over Benjen, she beat squires off in the open. (Again, the comparison of how she defended the weak vs. Sansa's approach). There's little indication she hid her true strength under her courtsey and beauty like Sansa did.
  • 3. Yes Sansa and Lyanna are beautiful. But Arya's heading that way too, more and more characters comment on her looks and it's her who is explicitly said to look like Lyanna - the "wild" and "Northern" beauty. (And was said to be boyish). 

Sansa = Romantic Side of Lyanna and Arya = Wild Side of Lyanna

  • 1. Again, no indication Lyanna was a romantic, she seemed cynical and realistic about Robert. There's no indication she has these "two opposing sides." 
  • 2. In the same conversation Ned tells Arya that she's so similar to Lyanna, he says Sansa and Arya are as "different as the sun and moon." That doesn't add up. "Arya you're the opposite of your sister! And almost exactly like Lyanna!" = "Sansa is like Lyanna". 
  • 3. Arya several times is compared to Lyanna: By Ned, by Harwin, by Bran when he sees Lyanna. Arya is closest to Lyanna's son. No one in text ever compares Sansa and Lyanna. 

:D:D:D:D I'm dying here

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Posted (edited)

On 8/11/2017 at 8:12 PM, Risto said:

It really all depends on how you look on these characters. I believe many things in Sansa's storyline is non-explicit and that is just the way how Martin portrays her and writes her. Just the parallels with Ned, which can be rather obvious, are never even mentioned. And ironically, how of them are very similar. Which is why it is so funny when people think of Ned as proto-Stark and see Sansa as anti-Stark.

I do acknowledge that the essay was done with some conclusions that may not be true, but some facts remain:

1. Sansa DID rebel against Ned when she went to Cersei.

2. Arya DID make a point about her future not being someone who will get married and have bunch of kids. We have also seen that Faceless Men have idea of "not giving life when you take it" so one can argue that Arya's story will not end with a husband and kids. That said, it is not that she is impossible to fall in love, I just question Martin's intentions with it.

3. We have enough evidence to make a case that Lyanna wasn't abducted and that she indeed loved Rhaegar. She wasn't perhaps blind romantic, but perhaps she had her judgement clouded by infatuation.

At the end of the day, time will tell if I was wrong. With the new volumes, we will have Lyanna's story completed and then we won't be making any guesses :D 

1. Yes she did, but it was notably out of character for "eager to please since she was 3" versus "wilful, wild" Lyanna. (When Sansa does something rebellious she even compares it to feeling "almost as wicked as Arya" to reflect how out of character her doing something disobedient is). And a very different type of rebellion in siding with your mother-in-law to ensure the arranged marriage goes and you become Queen versus. rebels against literally everyone and running away from all good society with a guy. 

2. As a nine year old. Sansa believed she was living in a song when she started out. And honestly the whole point of Arya's Faceless men arc is that she's failing to be a Faceless man, and give up her identity and life. (And the books also depict her having a puppy love/childish romantic tease with Gendry and have now made a point of her being womanly enough to entice men). I'm not saying that she's going to end up happily married raising 7 kids in the countryside, but to say that a much younger Arya cannot be like 16 year old Lyanna because her story is devoid of any love or romance is reaching. 

But yes overall, you're right that we'll just to see about how how blinded Lyanna really was and how much R/L was a straight love story. It's one of the biggest mysteries of the series and I suspect it will be more complex and in-between the two contrasting versions of "kidnapped" vs. "they were just consumed by love!!"

We may well get flashbacks of Lyanna gushing over Rhaegar being a "golden haired dragon/he was all she ever wanted/her perfect prince" or him being obviously an arse while she ignores the truth. (At the moment, I cannot imagine I-beat-up-squires-who-attack-helpless-men Lyanna, ever covering for Rhaegar if he did something like attack an innocent commoner or try to kill her sibling, but you never know). We might see Lyanna refusing to believe her warnings about the Prince, Rhaegar promising that he would make his wife and Queen, that she did choose a guy over the her family and believe Rhaegar is a fairytale Prince. Then absolutely I'll agree there are parallels. It's possible a lot of Lyanna/Sansa mirroring could pop up in future books. But at the moment we'll just have to wait :) (That if if GRRM ever finishes at all... :/ )

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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