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Is Jamie dead

81 posts in this topic

Other than Jaime's plot being still clearly unfinished, it's awfully silly for Bronn to save him from the fire only to drown him in the lake. It seems like when major characters die, it happens all at at once. No close calls leading up to it. Ned's might be the only big death where the reader/viewer was actually faked out right beforehand. 

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3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Wonder what kind of impression Jaime made on Daenerys?

I actually wonder what kind of impression Daenerys made on Tyrion.  He looked pretty distraught at the carnage, especially because he knows a lot of those soldiers for the Lannisters are the Ed Sheeran nice guys type who are doing their job.  I don't care how many scenes they have of former slaves talking about their devotion to Daenerys and how great she is, inviting 3 dragons and a Dothraki horde to conquer Westeros just because you want it is never going to be okay to me.  Conquering is ugly work and Saint Tyrion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to stomach much more of it.

Also, I'm certain that Jaime is not dead and he will land the definitive blow against the White Walkers in addition to killing Cersei.  I think he will die in the end, but as some sort of "the things I do for love" self sacrifice to save everyone and redeem himself.  Jaime is boss.  I actually found it heroic that despite having only one hand, awkwardness with the spear, and watching his men get flambayed he still courageously charged at Daenerys in order to try and spare the kingdoms from seeing more bloodshed at crazy ass Dany's hands.

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6 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I actually wonder what kind of impression Daenerys made on Tyrion.  He looked pretty distraught at the carnage, especially because he knows a lot of those soldiers for the Lannisters are the Ed Sheeran nice guys type who are doing their job.  I don't care how many scenes they have of former slaves talking about their devotion to Daenerys and how great she is, inviting 3 dragons and a Dothraki horde to conquer Westeros just because you want it is never going to be okay to me.  Conquering is ugly work and Saint Tyrion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to stomach much more of it.

 

I don't know that tyrion can judge. For 1 he burned a bunch of men alive with wildfire at black water. For 2, he knew what danys intentions were back in mereen in terms on conquering. 3 she did try things his way twice losing a bunch of their own people/allies/ships so it's nots like she immediately got there and went on a burning killing spree. And 4 its war and lots are going to die, yes fire is not a great way to go but is it really so much worse than thousands getting stabbed in the battlefield some lying for hours and days before dying of their wound, least dragonfire is fast. 

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Posted (edited)

Jamie will survive. But he and Bronn will either be taken as a prisoner, and/or presumed dead. Both scenarios open the door for Ceresi to marry Euron and the Valanqar prophecy to be fulfilled. 

Edited by nborders

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I actually wonder what kind of impression Daenerys made on Tyrion.  He looked pretty distraught at the carnage, especially because he knows a lot of those soldiers for the Lannisters are the Ed Sheeran nice guys type who are doing their job.  I don't care how many scenes they have of former slaves talking about their devotion to Daenerys and how great she is, inviting 3 dragons and a Dothraki horde to conquer Westeros just because you want it is never going to be okay to me.  Conquering is ugly work and Saint Tyrion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to stomach much more of it.

Yeah Tyrion did not seem like he enjoyed this but he knew there was nothing he could do, even when he seen Jamie and then he started charging he was helpless to do anything. I do understand what you are saying about using  3 dragons and a Dothraki hoard to claim the Iron Throne back and how it will affect the people within Westeros, but personally if she does conquer she will rule with fear for the majority

Quote

Also, I'm certain that Jaime is not dead and he will land the definitive blow against the White Walkers in addition to killing Cersei.  I think he will die in the end, but as some sort of "the things I do for love" self sacrifice to save everyone and redeem himself.

Jamie isn't dead and I don't believe he will captured either by Daenerys. I think it will start as we left off were we will see the ashes and shear destruction of the battle field and Bronn pulling Jamie from the water and making their way back to Kings Landing. I totally agree that the show is definitely pushing him towards a hero ending.

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  Jaime is boss.  I actually found it heroic that despite having only one hand, awkwardness with the spear, and watching his men get flambayed he still courageously charged at Daenerys in order to try and spare the kingdoms from seeing more bloodshed at crazy ass Dany's hands.

Jamie is a lovable character, one who you just want to slap and wake the hell up to what Cersei is doing to him and having him do.

I personally don't think he did it cos he doesn't want the bloodshed or spare the kingdoms from that. He's doing it for Cersei and the love he has for her, he wants to see her be the Ruler of the Westeros. You think he would follow Cersei if he wanted to spare bloodshed, I think not. 

War is war, you think if Cersei had dragons she would be perceived different to Daenerys. Death is death, barbaric or not, someone is being killed whether it be burnt or a blade. 

You think if Jamie had killed Daenerysi it would end the War and bloodshed you've got another thing coming. What happens to Daenerys Dragons where do they go? Does she just forget about Jon Snow? What happens to the Dothraki? you think they will not try conquer and someone proclaim there self a Khal?

Edited by Samwell_Tarly
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I'm pretty sure he's still alive. I don't think the show will be showing the lannisters defeat this season let alone the death of its current golden boy.

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He's not dead, but he should be. The only reason he survived was because the show wanted him to survive. And I've said this a couple of times now in different threads, but from a show that made it's name on not saving Ned at the final moment and breaking fantasy norms, this was quite a bad example of saving the hero at the last second. 

Either they shouldn't have done the ridiculous Jaime charging Drogon scene or they should have fried him to a crisp. It was my biggest problem with the episode because it's the example of the show being overhyped with its reputation of killing off characters, being realistic, and breaking tropes. 

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1 hour ago, Heavy D said:

 I want those two men to get roasted.  Maybe Bronn will die slowly from 3rd degree burns.  

I was literally praying that Dany would die and I cheered when Drogon took that bolt from Bronn. As far as I'm concerned Dany is a psycopathic and self entitled tyrant who needs to exit the story as soon as possible. Jaime came across as the 'protagonist' of the episode, not her 

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The show has destroyed Jaime's character enough as is, him dying like this doesn't fit, neither in the show or the books. He's still essential to the valonqar prophecy. His story has to come full circle. He has to break from Cersei (and kill her) to finally be his own man. I personally think he and Cersei will die together, some think he'll be a hero (THE hero) afterwards, but in any case, Cersei has to die before he does, or at the very least die because of his actions. This is not how he dies.

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1 hour ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

 

You have edited and I didnt see, well regarding your post 

Did you see the speed and power needed to fire that Long spear to do any damage. (When Qyburn gets Cersei to fire it and also when Bronn fires the two spears) Jamie could not even replicate 1/10 of it, even riding a horse at say 25mph. Granted its the dragons eye yes but its probably going to blind him than go in his brain. Im not sure why we are having this discussion, not meaning any disregard. 

  1. Jamie stupidly tried to kill Daenerys
  2. Jamie failed
  3. Bronn saved him just before he was scorched
  4. Regardless of whether the spear could kill the dragon or not he wouldn't have got there.
  5. If Bronn hadnt saved him he would have been ashes.

 

Yeah, I thought that you hadn't seen my edited post so I wanted to bring your attention to it. I hope you don't mind. :)

While I am not an expert on dragon anatomy of course, an eye is usually quite close to brain so I think that he could have killed him. Well, half blinding the creature would be good too. If there was enough time for Jaime to stop the horse, to watch the fire coming from Drogon's mouth and then being pushed from the saddle by Bronn, I dare to say that there was enough time to reach Drogon too. Plus you have to count the weight of Jaime and the horse and their fictitious force (I hope this is the correct english term...) Of course, Jaime's initial target was Daenerys, which was in fact a good move - if he killed her (and he wasn't that far from it), he would practically immediately stop the whole invasion. Yes, Drogon would kill him then and I suppose that Jaime knew it while he decided to try to kill her.

But you're right that we are probably going it a bit off-topic. :)

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Pretty sure if he was going to die they'd have just shown him die to Drogon - While horrific it would have been a pretty badass way to go.

100% he's still alive. 

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7 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Yeah, I thought that you hadn't seen my edited post so I wanted to bring your attention to it. I hope you don't mind. :)

While I am not an expert on dragon anatomy of course, an eye is usually quite close to brain so I think that he could have killed him.

With enough power yes, Jamie was never going to get anywhere near the power needed.

7 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

 

Well, half blinding the creature would be good too. If there was enough time for Jaime to stop the horse, to watch the fire coming from Drogon's mouth and then being pushed from the saddle by Bronn, I dare to say that there was enough time to reach Drogon too

Jamie never stopped the Horse so please re watch, there was not enough time other than for Jamie to be roasted if Bronn didnt save him. 

7 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Plus you have to count the weight of Jaime and the horse and their fictitious force (I hope this is the correct english term...) Of course, Jaime's initial target was Daenerys, which was in fact a good move - if he killed her (and he wasn't that far from it), he would practically immediately stop the whole invasion. Yes, Drogon would kill him then and I suppose that Jaime knew it while he decided to try to kill her.

But you're right that we are probably going it a bit off-topic. :)

You have to account that most of the force is going to exerted back through him, he wont be able to hold the spear, hes not attached to the horse etc etc. 

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Hey   @nymeria_2321 and @Samwell_Tarly you both make good points.  On the argument about Tyrion not really having much of a leg to stand on with being disgusted by Dany I think a key difference is that in the War of the 5 Kings Tyrion was playing defense - his family controlled the Iron Throne and could be presumed to be the "rightful heirs" charged with saving the kingdom against outside threats that like to burn people (Stannis and Mel), whereas now he is part of the invasion.  Book Tyrion wouldn't be as disgusted by the bloodshed and war but Saint Tyrion of the show would be.

Interesting take on Jaime really going for Daenerys out of love for Cersei - I didn't get that impression, and especially after Olenna's chat with him I think Jaime knows in his heart that he no longer loves Cersei and she is a monster, but doesn't know anything else yet, maybe will never find anything to replace her.

Had he successfully killed Dany I am of the opinion that her team would splinter.  Yes there would be Dothraki who would do their own thing and must be dealt with, but it would be easier to take them on when they are isolated (and Westerosi locals unite in wanting to defeat these rapers and pillagers - Dany was the only thing keeping them in line).  Yara's Iron Born go back where they came from and run back to Euron, Dorne is out of the picture... all of this is contingent on the dragons, while being a terrifying nuisance like they were in Essos with killing up goats and people for prey, not bonding with anyone but their mother and going off doing their own thing as opposed to being strategically positioned and directed at killing armies.  They'd have to be destroyed, but that might be a lot easier to do without them also having a ton of dothraki and other foot soldiers accompanying them.

Ultimately what evidence do we have that Cersei would be a much worse ruler than Dany?  She blew up the sept for expedient vengeance and has no personal regard for the smallfolk, but she would be ruling on a position of fear same as Dany, and at least her S1 conversation with Joffrey shows that she understands that she cannot let people starve or tax the hell out of them or forcibly conscript them into military service.  She is loathsome as a person and dangerous, but I'm not yet sold that in the show she is an awful ruler or at least any worse than Dany.

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4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I actually wonder what kind of impression Daenerys made on Tyrion.  He looked pretty distraught at the carnage, especially because he knows a lot of those soldiers for the Lannisters are the Ed Sheeran nice guys type who are doing their job. 

I think he felt like a turncoat that he is a traitor. Which is true. He also seas Lannister men being slaughtered, and maybe that reminds him that he gave the unsullied the key to Casterly Rock where many westermen were slaughtered. It looks to me that he regret going against house lannister if only for a small moment. Maybe he will get new energy that will fuel his work to unravel house lannister.

Do we know is Tyrion had a good relationship with his guards? The ones that followed him when Catelyn Tully nee Stark kidnapped him?

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I don't care how many scenes they have of former slaves talking about their devotion to Daenerys and how great she is, inviting 3 dragons and a Dothraki horde to conquer Westeros just because you want it is never going to be okay to me.  Conquering is ugly work and Saint Tyrion doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to stomach much more of it.

Daenerys should ask herself what the difference between serfdom and slavery is. If she is against slavery she needs to explain how serfdom is any different. She only want to feel good, morally superior when it is just virtue signaling from her.

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Also, I'm certain that Jaime is not dead and he will land the definitive blow against the White Walkers in addition to killing Cersei.  I think he will die in the end, but as some sort of "the things I do for love" self sacrifice to save everyone and redeem himself.  Jaime is boss.  I actually found it heroic that despite having only one hand, awkwardness with the spear, and watching his men get flambayed he still courageously charged at Daenerys in order to try and spare the kingdoms from seeing more bloodshed at crazy ass Dany's hands.

Jaime charging Daenerys was the best part of the episode!

I think Jaime will become the son Tywin always wanted after all his failures.

4 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I was literally praying that Dany would die and I cheered when Drogon took that bolt from Bronn. As far as I'm concerned Dany is a psycopathic and self entitled tyrant who needs to exit the story as soon as possible. Jaime came across as the 'protagonist' of the episode, not her 

Daenerys would suit a lance in her heart.

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I believe Jaime is alive and a captive of Dany.  I also believe he is Elaria's Deus Ex Machina.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I was literally praying that Dany would die and I cheered when Drogon took that bolt from Bronn. As far as I'm concerned Dany is a psycopathic and self entitled tyrant who needs to exit the story as soon as possible. Jaime came across as the 'protagonist' of the episode, not her 

Jaime serves a 'psychopathic and self-entitled tyrant who needs to exit the story as soon as possible...' = Cersei!

Just as Olenna predicted with her dying breath, it's still all about the 'things he does for love of,' and out of fear of breaking with, said 'psychopathic and self entitled tyrant who needs to exit the story as soon as possible.'  And if Olenna hadn't dispatched Joffrey, Jaime would still be actively propping up his even worse tyrannical regimen, conveniently ignoring how much suffering that caused for anyone.  So much for stopping tyrants in their tracks -- it seems Jaime is only willing to stand up and confront them in the name of 'justice', when those tyrants are called 'Targaryen' and not 'Lannister.'  

In short, regardless of ones take on Daenerys, Jaime's not entitled to the moral high ground here.  He's looking after his own interests, using the means at his disposal, just like Daenerys.  They're both heroic warriors; they both stood by their troops till the bitter end -- she bravely flew a dragon until she toppled from the sky, and he valiantly charged one until he was thrown from his horse.  It would be so ironically pleasing if he were the Mad King's bastard, making Jaime and Daenerys brother and sister, underscoring the pathos of the encounter, and the difficulty in assigning 'right' and 'wrong' while sorting through the complexity of historical grievances culminating in that moment, facing off against each other on opposite sides instead of being on the same side of the field. Consider that none of any of this would have happened, had it not been for the Lannisters eliminating most of Dany's family, with Jaime himself delivering the coup de grace, by emphatically stabbing his king (and likely biological father) in the back, driving Dany into a life of exile, whereafter, ultimately, Jaime and Cersei illegally seized the throne for themselves, sparking a bloody and protracted civil war (where were Jaime's tender feelings for the 'smallfolk' while his father was ruthlessly setting the Riverlands on fire in an equally bloody conflagration?), all in order to rule through their bastard son Joffrey, another 'psychopathic and self-entitled tyrant who needed to exit the story as soon as possible,' whom Tyrion accordingly dubs 'Aerys III'.  

So, verily, I say unto you:  'By what right does the lion presume to judge the dragon?"

Where does it end?

Edited by ravenous reader

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8 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Imagine a mouse running at you with a 'spear' trying to drive a large tooth pick through your mouth, yeah stupid isn't it and not going to happen.

You're giving the dragons faaar too much credit. Several dragons have been slain by men:

  • Stormcloud has been mortally wounded during a sea battle

  • Tessarion was put down by three arrows shot in her eye

  • Shrykos was killed by a f***in' lumberjack dealing seven blows with an axe

The Storming of the Dragon Pit alone should be indication enough. These were smallfolks killing 4 dragons. I'm rather sure they didn't have a minivan sized ballista with them. Maybe weirwood spears but even that... unlikely. Dragons might be hard to kill but can be killed quicker than Jamie, apparently.

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5 hours ago, nborders said:

Jamie will survive. But he and Bronn will either be taken as a prisoner, and/or presumed dead. Both scenarios open the door for Ceresi to marry Euron and the Valanqar prophecy to be fulfilled. 

If they escape that would be hard to believe. Given Dany would make sure they are found for what they have done. I agree they will get caputured. Tyrion will try to keep Dany from roasting them alive. Tyrion will talk Dany into keeping them as prisoners. Tyrion will send a raven to Cersei letting her know they have Jaime. Cersei sends a raven back to tell them to go ahead and roast him.I think Dany changes her mind and before she can roast Jaime, Tyrion repays his debt to Jaime by setting him free as Jaime did for him, or they have a long talk and Tyrion shows the letter Cersei wrote and wants to join Dany. 

I know wishful thinking. Lol

The show will go with them escaping which I will find hard to believe.

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Of course Jaime's alive, he's only 8 feet offshore... the bottomless abyss is just artistic license, the cliffhanger... it GoT real life, Jaime's only in knee deep water, all he has to do is stand the hell up!!

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Killing Jaime at this stage would be strange. His arc is still incomplete.

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