Blueroses

Jon legitimacy foreshadowing ?

200 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Because Viserys was Aerys heir.. But that doesn't mean that everyone would support his claim.. Aerys chose an heir that is different that the one the tradition would choose. Just like Viserys chose Rhaenyra over his firstborn son.. What I am trying to say is that both of them have claims.. It's just the way you want to see it.. Viserys II decision divided the half kingdom.. If Jon decide to claim the Iron Throne (he won't since the throne has zero importance now.. and he is the one who truly know that) Dany will support her claim..(anyway this is not gonna happen). There is also the thing that they first need to do.. Conquer the Iron Throne... Danerys claim to be the rightful queen because she call Robert a Userper and don't accept that Robert had the throne with the right of Conquest..

On the bolded I agree, both have claims and would have supporters that think his/her claim is better. 

I also agree that Jon couldn't care less about the Iron Throne; not so sure that in case he claimed it, show Dani would support him,

Book Dani most likely would, given that she thinks of her brother Rhaegar with admiration, and of his dead nephew Aegon as the one who would have reigned, and even had a fantasy that she could have married him. So, book Danaerys is well aware that her claim goes behind Rhaegar children's one, and she thinks herself to be the rightful queen just because she is the only one left.

Having said all that, I still do not think that Gerold Hightower would have been in the ToJ because he was one of those who would have supported Rhaegar's son as succesor over the one Aerys' decided. If he was there, is because Aerys wanted him there, and when Aerys died he would have fled to Dragonstone with Vyseris. Then there has to be something else, something we still do not know.

Edited by LucyMormont

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4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Dany is a noble woman who live in a medieval time world. She knows son always goes before daughter and she is very ok with it. The reason she calls herself queen is that there is no other male Targ left, not because she believes woman power. Once she knows Jon is true Targ, she will happily let him get iron throne, no matter she loves him romantically or not. This is just the way it is supposed to be. 

For example, Sansa said to Bran that he is the only true born son and he is the lord of winterfell after she saw Bran back. She is not going to say: I am elder daughter and I am a better ruler than you so I should be lady of winterfell. 

There will not be Daenerys I, unless Jon dies without male issue.  

there is some truth to this but do you really think Jon has any desire whatsoever to press him claim for a throne he does not want?  He does even want the one has has now in the North. Is he suddenly going to embrace entitlement, now that he finds out he is legitimate?  Honestly I think he would be quite content with a Daenerys I if he grows to love and respect her which appears to be what is happening on the show. If Jon does become King in the show I think it is because Dany names him heir and she dies. .

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1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

If/when there is solid proof that Jon is the rightful heir, how does this affect Cersei/Jaime? Will they accept it? Jaime as a Kingsguard is sworn to protect the king. He might do so but end up against Cersei.

In the books, Jaime at one point has a dream about Rhaegar, who accuses him of not protecting his children, and Jaime says he never thought that they will be killed in the way they were - which, I believe, is true, Jaime really liked Rhaegar, and he kind of feels guilty.

So if/when it turns out Jon is Rhaegar's son (legitimate or bastard), Jaime might feel it is his duty to protect him (king or not), as he owes one to Rhaegar.

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4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

there is some truth to this but do you really think Jon has any desire whatsoever to press him claim for a throne he does not want?  He does even want the one has has now in the North. Is he suddenly going to embrace entitlement, now that he finds out he is legitimate?  Honestly I think he would be quite content with a Daenerys I if he grows to love and respect her which appears to be what is happening on the show. If Jon does become King in the show I think it is because Dany names him heir and she dies. .

He may not want the throne, but that's kind of beside the point. A major theme of the books has to do with the intertwining of duty and morality. Stannis didn't especially want the throne, but he saw it as his duty to press his claim. Jaime had a duty to protect the King, but he killed him anyway because it was the right thing to do; he couldn't let Aerys torch the city. Jon sees his duty as protecting humanity. He didn't want to be KITN, but he took it anyway because once elected by his Lords, he couldn't refuse. I think it's important to understand as well that his Lords proclaimed him King both because he had demonstrated fitness to lead AND because he was a son of Ned Stark. I think it will go in a similar fashion in the south. First, Jon will emerge as a major ally of Dany and a leader of her army and will demonstrate fitness to lead, and then something will happen to reveal his true identity, which will be the birthright portion to sort of solidify people's view of him as the right person to sit on the throne. At this point, he still may not give two shits about the Iron Throne, but he'll see it as his duty to take it. 

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1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

If/when there is solid proof that Jon is the rightful heir, how does this affect Cersei/Jaime? Will they accept it? Jaime as a Kingsguard is sworn to protect the king. He might do so but end up against Cersei.

Why would they accept it?  and jaime is no longer a kingsguard. Remember that tommen released him from duty before he sent him to riverrun. So as of now he has absolutely no reason to help jon

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13 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

So, you think she would betray his family for the baby of another woman? Lyanna was no Brienne; yes, we know she had some wildness in her, like Arya has, but it was a 15 years old girl.

Why on earth the honorable Ned would hide Elia's son and raise him like his own??  We know that he was outraged when he knew what had happened with Rhaenys and Aegon; so I can easily picture him , lets say, sending the baby to his grandmother at Dragonstone, or even helping to arrange the escape (not personally, though, but sending another person) of the remanents of the royal family to Essos. But in  no way he would have commited treason, like he did,  for Elia and Rhaegar's son.

Betray? No it is very simple. At the time of the tournament, Rheagar was the crown prince, the heir to the throne. Lyanna did not want to marry Robert. Taking up service with Rheagar would be an entirely honorable path for her. Having taken up service, protecting his child against the father who might kill the innocent, again entirely honorable. Her loyalty to her future king would be paramount.

As for Ned, we know why he acted as he did, he made a promise to Lyanna. And it is hinted at that his promise was what caused Ned to warn Cersei rather than tell Robert of her incest immediately. We are told of the cost of that promise but not what it was.

11 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Ned told Jon that he was a Stark and had his blood. That wasn't a lie. He is half-Stark and does have his uncle's blood.

He was Lyanna's son, no doubt. 

Ned said that Jon had stark BLOOD. Not that he was a Stark. Blood as in blood magic, Lyanna's blood.

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3 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

 

They had separate chambers, it is definitely mentioed in the books - and they had a loving marriage. Cat's chamber was the warmest of all, and Ned always had to open the window because he was hot there. 

It might be different in the show, though.

There is a very old trope about couples being required to maintain separate beds for the sake of convention but sleeping together because they are close. Can't remember if GRRM used it or not.

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2 hours ago, Styl7 said:

How exactly did Elia gave borth to Jon when she was a prisoner in Kings Landing? I mean how do the fans of this theory explain this?

Jon would have been born on dragonstone before Elia goes to KL. The timing does seem to fit, just. It makes Jon somewhat older than Danny though and more significantly, older than Robb which is hinted at in the books, as boys Jon looks older though their birth dates would have him be younger.

One of the things that is odd about the hint that Jon's true age is being covered up is that it goes against Ned's interest. If he had had a child with another woman before Cat was pregnant with Robb, that would be rather different to that happening after.

What I have never got about the R+L=J theory is that it solves nothing in the books or the show. Right now, Jon is King in the North of his own right and because Ned is his father. So replace Ned with Rheagar and what does he gain? It makes even less sense if Jon marries Danny. 

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7 minutes ago, hallam said:

Jon would have been born on dragonstone before Elia goes to KL. The timing does seem to fit, just. It makes Jon somewhat older than Danny though and more significantly, older than Robb which is hinted at in the books, as boys Jon looks older though their birth dates would have him be younger.

I don't know what the official age difference between Jon and Robb is, but I'm sure it's not more than, say, a month. What Jon looked like at the age of 14 is irrelevant. But Catelyn and the others saw him as an infant - and with infants, even half a year would definitely matter. If he was THAT older than Robb, they certanly would have noted, and nobody would have bought the bullshit that Ned fathered him after his marriage to Catelyn.

If Jon is R+L (as I think he is), he was born at the end of the rebellion, around the time Ned went to the ToJ. Since the rebellion lasted about a year, and Ned married Cat during the rebellion (a few month into it), Robb was born around the same time, as Jon, which makes sense. Elia died around  that time, and for most of the time, during the rebellion, he was at Kings Landing, as a hostage towards the Martells. No way she could give birth to Jon secretly, and manage to send him to Lyanna and Rhaegar for unknown reason (who were doing exactly what for a year?).

If Jon would have been born on dragonstone, as you suggest, he would be about a year older than Robb. I'm pretty sure everyone in Winterfell could have told apart a half-year and a one-and-a-half-year-old child. 

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30 minutes ago, hallam said:

There is a very old trope about couples being required to maintain separate beds for the sake of convention but sleeping together because they are close. Can't remember if GRRM used it or not.

The point is, they HAD separate chambers and beds. I'm pretty sure most aristocrats had. And how often the husband visited his wife, that's another question. Maybe he did so every night. Maybe he even fell asleep there and only woke in the morning. But the point is, he always had a chance NOT to go there, and sleep in his own bed, because, well, he had a bed. I guess in most cases, that's where he brought his lovers (if he had any) as well.

Since the discussion started whith WHY Rhaegar had a bed of his own - of course he had. How often he used that or whether he went to his wife's bed, that's another question. The fact that he had a bed is not proof that he wasn't sleeping with Elia at that point.

For the record, since he was fond of his wife (that's what Barristan says), I think that after Aegon was born and Elia almost died, and the maesters told him that she would definitely die from another pregnancy (probably without being able to give birth), that  was the point where he stopped sleeping with her (so that he won't endanger her life). It was about a year after the Harrenhal Tournament, where he saw Lyanna. And because he firmly believed the "dragon has three hads" and he believed it would be his 3 children, he went after Lyanna, married her (because he wanted to make his 3rd child legitimate, too), and fathered Jon.

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47 minutes ago, Arya Targaryen said:

For the record, since he was fond of his wife (that's what Barristan says), I think that after Aegon was born and Elia almost died, and the maesters told him that she would definitely die from another pregnancy (probably without being able to give birth), that  was the point where he stopped sleeping with her (so that he won't endanger her life). It was about a year after the Harrenhal Tournament, where he saw Lyanna. And because he firmly believed the "dragon has three hads" and he believed it would be his 3 children, he went after Lyanna, married her (because he wanted to make his 3rd child legitimate, too), and fathered Jon.

We only know about the maesters bit from exactly one source called Jon Connington, or Jon-CON, the Con about Jon who is going to Retcon Jon because he is all a con.

I don't think that name is a coincidence. And he was only written into the stories after the D&D dinner with GRRM.

If Rheagar needed another child, he could have had any woman, he didn't need to start a civil war over it.

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4 hours ago, Deminelle said:

If/when there is solid proof that Jon is the rightful heir, how does this affect Cersei/Jaime? Will they accept it? Jaime as a Kingsguard is sworn to protect the king. He might do so but end up against Cersei.

Jaime is sworn to protect the grandson of the king he stabbed in the back? 

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2 hours ago, hallam said:

What I have never got about the R+L=J theory is that it solves nothing in the books or the show. Right now, Jon is King in the North of his own right and because Ned is his father. So replace Ned with Rheagar and what does he gain? It makes even less sense if Jon marries Danny. 

He gains the 7 kingdoms, possibly, if he's legitimate.

He also gains the possibility that he's legitimate. 

It makes it gross if he marries Dany, admittedly. 

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5 hours ago, Deminelle said:

If/when there is solid proof that Jon is the rightful heir, how does this affect Cersei/Jaime? Will they accept it? Jaime as a Kingsguard is sworn to protect the king. He might do so but end up against Cersei.

One of the main things the Stannis storyline does is show that precious few people in Westeros really care who the rightful heir is.  Jamie supported neither Stannis nor Renly though he knew with certainty that each had a better claim to the throne than Joffrey.  And Jamie remained on the Kingsguard under Robert and so had obligations to Robert and his heirs.  Stannis himself didn't have the support Renly did because people just didn't care that he had the better claim of the two.  Both the show and the books have been pushing home the point that a King can't expect to maintain his throne simply on the basis of a claim of right. The only person who might be expected to care a lot is Daenerys as it could, to some extent, undermine her belief that the throne is hers as of right. 

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25 minutes ago, darmody said:

He gains the 7 kingdoms, possibly, if he's legitimate.

He also gains the possibility that he's legitimate. 

It makes it gross if he marries Dany, admittedly. 

Rheagar died before Ellia. So R+L = Bastard. Sorry, it is the reason I rejected the theory in the first place. You can invent all the pseudo-plausible theories you like but none is going to change the central issue for Jon. The only birthright he is going to recognize is one that the laws of the north would recognize.

Yes, GRRM is a laid back new age guy who is totally cool with modern morality. But he is writing a story set in a very different set of values and norms. The only theory that makes Jon legitimate is R+E. If you think Jon must be legitimate then it is the only theory that is going to make sense. 

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On 2017-08-09 at 5:49 PM, purple-eyes said:

Henry Viii did annul his marriage with Catherine of Aragorn and declared their daughter illegitimate. She became lady Mary in stead of princess. same thing happened with Elizabeth by Anne after Henry killed her. (Later they were restored back to their royal titles due to inheritage issue though) 

It was a very serious issue if you want to annul a royal marriage because your children will become bastards. The reason Catherine of Aragorn insisted she was still queen was likely more for her daughter's status, not for herself. 

Henry killing Anne didn't make Elizabeth a bastard. Mary declaring after Henry's death that the annulment of her mother's marriage wasn't valid did.

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9 hours ago, hallam said:

 

If Rheagar needed another child, he could have had any woman, he didn't need to start a civil war over it.

He didn't start a civil war. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have thought that things will happen as they did.

Brandon was stupid enough to come to KL, demanding Rhaegar's head. Aerys was mad, so he summoned Rickard, who was supposed to be Brandon's champion in the trial, and used fire as his own champion, killing both Starks.

And civil war didn't start because of this. It started, because after that, Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert from Jon Arryn. So Jon Arryn called his banners, Ned and Robert did the same.

It can be traced back to R+L, but without Aeyrs being that stupid, it wouldn't have resulted in a war. It was Aerys, who started a war for no good reason.

 

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11 hours ago, hallam said:

Rheagar died before Ellia. So R+L = Bastard. Sorry, it is the reason I rejected the theory in the first place. You can invent all the pseudo-plausible theories you like but none is going to change the central issue for Jon. The only birthright he is going to recognize is one that the laws of the north would recognize.

Yes, GRRM is a laid back new age guy who is totally cool with modern morality. But he is writing a story set in a very different set of values and norms. The only theory that makes Jon legitimate is R+E. If you think Jon must be legitimate then it is the only theory that is going to make sense. 

Show watcher? If you've watched the recent episode then you would likely know by now that your R+E theory has been wrong. 

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23 hours ago, Mikkel said:

It IS a cliche (and a whole family of loosely related tropes over on tvtropes), but that does not mean it's wrong to use it. Cliches and tropes are not inherently bad, even if labeling something a cliche often carries with it a certain level of implied criticism.

I'm a show watcher (as well as a book one) and after watching the recent episode it indeed seems as if they gone through with the 'true king' cliche. 

18 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

 

They had separate chambers, it is definitely mentioed in the books - and they had a loving marriage. Cat's chamber was the warmest of all, and Ned always had to open the window because he was hot there. 

It might be different in the show, though.

Ah yes, sorry. I didn't pick up that mention of Cats own chambers. The show certainly do not seem to go that way though, so it makes it confusing if you need to compare it to real life history or anything.

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On 8/9/2017 at 1:02 PM, purple-eyes said:

No actually I will be happy to see it if they propose there is a secret annulment of his first marriage and a secret second marriage to Lyanna. 

Why? 

Because this will make Rhaegar an even bigger jerk than he is right now. 

He secretly divorced and abandoned his sickly wife right after she almost died to give him a son. 

He made his two young children bastards by annuling his marriage and even gave his name to his new son. 

And he left his exwife and bastard children under the control of Mad king. Should not he send his ex-wife and bastards back to her home? 

He did not even bother to announce this annulment, otherwise Tywin/Robert/or any of his enemies would not need to hurt any of them. 

He led a Dornish army of his exwife's house to fight for his new wife. 

He chose to become enemy with his brother in law in stead of trying to make peace with them (Lyanna is now future queen of Westeros, is not she?) 

 

Well, there you go!

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