Blueroses

Jon legitimacy foreshadowing ?

202 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

bonding to a dragon or being a dragon rider will  not prove you are a legit Targ. It can only prove you have drop of dragon blood. Numerous people rode dragons before but they are not Targs. Many of them did not even have a Targ parent. 

On the show?  We are talking about the show right?  It's not that deep and that bond will mean something.  

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5 hours ago, Heavy D said:

He's still a bastard.  Rhaegar was already married to Elia.

Even if to was not practiced in the last years of their reign, Targaryen were wekk known to practice polygamy...

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

honestly I think you overthought on this. Misandei has no idea what is bastard. So Jon explained to her by giving the definition for bastard. he might be or not be a bastard, but this does not seem to be a foreshadow. He also said he is not a stark. Then what is the GOT translation? he is a Stark? 

Misandei has no idea what is bastard ? It's way I finf weird, even if it's different in Naath,  doesn't any culture in all Essos have mariage traditions ? Haven't they been talking about that "Jon Snow" in theur council before/since his arrival on Dragonstone ? 

As far the Stark reference, it's something he often says in the books and the show (besides, for years, poeple have been GoT-Translating that as "I am a Targaryen").

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23 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

Even if to was not practiced in the last years of their reign, Targaryen were wekk known to practice polygamy...

Misandei has no idea what is bastard ? It's way I finf weird, even if it's different in Naath,  doesn't any culture in all Essos have mariage traditions ? Haven't they been talking about that "Jon Snow" in theur council before/since his arrival on Dragonstone ? 

As far the Stark reference, it's something he often says in the books and the show (besides, for years, poeple have been GoT-Translating that as "I am a Targaryen").

If we are talking about show, then no, nothing in the show suggested Targ has had more than one wife. When they mentioned Rhaenys or Visenya, they only said they are sisters of Aegon, avoided saying they are his sister-wives. This happened more than once. They likely did this intentionally. They did not want raise this polygamy to confuse people. Otherwise show watchers might say: there is polygamy available? Why can not king Robb marry both Talisa and Roslin Frey to avoid red wedding? And producers might not want to put too many incest relationships in the show either. It is after all not something very positive in regular people's eyes (although GRRM wrote many positive and great relationships such as Jaeharys I and his sister wife, Aemon and Naerys, Jaehareys II and his sister wife, etc. )

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Well someone somewhere has to figure out something about Jon's parentage because they are beating that horse with the subtlety of a battle axe. 

I'm a bastard. I'm not a Stark. My father Ned Stark wasn't married to my unknown mother. That's why I'm a bastard. 

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7 hours ago, Quoth said:

Could this be the long awaited and anticipated scene where Jon displays some affinity for dragons? I can see it now, instead of toasting him, the dragon nuzzles him with his snout, causing Dany to surrender to Jon's obvious superior ability with dragons. :rolleyes:

I like this! The dragon rolls over on its back, legs in the air, tongue out, just like a puppy? :)

Has Jon ever gotten burned? I don't recall reading about a burn in the books...

 

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46 minutes ago, direwoofwoof said:

I like this! The dragon rolls over on its back, legs in the air, tongue out, just like a puppy? :)

Has Jon ever gotten burned? I don't recall reading about a burn in the books...

 

Yes. When he saved Jeor Mormont from the wight back in season one. He definitely got burned in the book. I can't remember if he burned his hand in the show too.  

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7 minutes ago, AdoraKitty said:

Yes. When he saved Jeor Mormont from the wight back in season one. He definitely got burned in the book. I can't remember if he burned his hand in the show too.  

Yes he did in the show.

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46 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Well someone somewhere has to figure out something about Jon's parentage because they are beating that horse with the subtlety of a battle axe. 

I'm a bastard. I'm not a Stark. My father Ned Stark wasn't married to my unknown mother. That's why I'm a bastard. 

Its patronising to the viewer to watch this these ''clues''. Its ridiculous how unsubtle they are being. 

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Undeniably, as others have correctly noted, the screenwriters "doth protest too much" when it comes to Jon's bastard status. The scene with Davos and Missandei is the most egregious instance of this very deliberate trend.

I predict that in episode 7, Sam will find proof somewhere in a hidden manuscript or genealogical tome that Rhaegar and Lyanna were validly married, albeit in a sort of Targaryen state secret during a war; probably at the same time as Dany succumbs to Jon's "brooding" intentions and commits unwitting aunt-nephew incest with him.

I must say though: invest between Dan and Jon is increasingly seeming a logical inevitability on the basis of recent plot developments but I'm feeling somewhat icky regarding what will be, in the end, a positive depiction of incestual sex. For all that we might have come to like Jaime's character, he and his sister are still antagonists in the series. There incest has always been seen in that context.

Danny-Jon sex would be between two protagonists. Hmm.

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Undeniably, as others have correctly noted, the screenwriters "doth protest too much" when it comes to Jon's bastard status. The scene with Davos and Missandei is the most egregious instance of this very deliberate trend. They really couldn't make it any clearer if they tried and by god are they trying hard to communicate this.

I predict that in episode 7, Sam will find proof somewhere in a hidden manuscript or genealogical tome that Rhaegar and Lyanna were validly married, albeit in a sort of Targaryen state secret during a war; probably at the same time as Dany succumbs to Jon's "brooding" intentions and commits unwitting aunt-nephew incest with him.

I must say though: invest between Dan and Jon is increasingly seeming a logical inevitability on the basis of recent plot developments but I'm feeling somewhat icky regarding what will be, in the end, a positive depiction of incestual sex. For all that we might have come to like Jaime's character, he and his sister are still antagonists in the series. There incest has always been seen in that context.

Danny-Jon sex would be between two protagonists. Hmm.

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9 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Its patronising to the viewer to watch this these ''clues''. Its ridiculous how unsubtle they are being. 

Yeah and these scenes always stand out. They have a Look At Me, I'm Foreshadowing sticker on their foreheads. They don't blend into the flow of the episode because they are so blatantly obviously included for providing "foreshadowing"

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9 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

 

I predict that in episode 7, Sam will find proof somewhere in a hidden manuscript or genealogical tome that Rhaegar and Lyanna were validly married, albeit in a sort of Targaryen state secret during a war; probably at the same time as Dany succumbs to Jon's "brooding" intentions and commits unwitting aunt-nephew incest with him.

 

Rhaegar and Lyanna is no 'sort of secret'. It is the biggest secret in the history of Westeros.

If it were that easy to find some evidence of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married, then surely more people would know than already do. And someone who wrote it or stumbled across it would surely wonder if Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had a child.

The whole point of their relationship was that it was in entire secrecy. Do you think Ned would have bothered claiming Jon as his bastard son to hide the truth about him from Robert if there was a chance the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar was written in some book the whole time?

I think some people assume because Sam is in the Citadel that he is being exposed to an abyss of knowledge on every single thing that happened in history. Even in the real world, we do not record everything as not everyone knows everything about everything that's ever happened. Considering the lengths Rhaegar went to in hiding Lyanna and the lengths Ned went to in hiding the truth about Jon, for it all to be written down in some tome would be massive anti-climax. But more than that, it just wouldn't make any sense.

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I don't think Jon being R+L would need that much evidence. Anyone with half a brain would realise it, once someone suggests the possibility. The whole 7Kingdoms tried to guess who Jon's mother was, Who the woman could have been, with whom the Honorable Ned Stark cheated on his wife. And nobody could come up with a solution. But the idea, that Jon is not Ned's son, never occured to anybody, simply because HonorableNed claimed him. 

Once someone comes up with the idea, that Jon is Lyanna's son, it will click. I bet, Tyrion, Varys, even Jaime (who knew Rhaegar) will belive it in a second. Dany will belive it, if Jon manages to bond with a dragon. The problem is with the legitimacy. Were they married, and if they were, who can prove that? Bran might know, but that's no proof. HR would know of Jon, but not of the wedding. My guess is Lyanna's tomb (maybe she was buried with a Targ wedding cloak). Or, it won't matter, like, at all.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna is no 'sort of secret'. It is the biggest secret in the history of Westeros.

If it were that easy to find some evidence of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married, then surely more people would know than already do. And someone who wrote it or stumbled across it would surely wonder if Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had a child.

The whole point of their relationship was that it was in entire secrecy. Do you think Ned would have bothered claiming Jon as his bastard son to hide the truth about him from Robert if there was a chance the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar was written in some book the whole time?

I think some people assume because Sam is in the Citadel that he is being exposed to an abyss of knowledge on every single thing that happened in history. Even in the real world, we do not record everything as not everyone knows everything about everything that's ever happened. Considering the lengths Rhaegar went to in hiding Lyanna and the lengths Ned went to in hiding the truth about Jon, for it all to be written down in some tome would be massive anti-climax. But more than that, it just wouldn't make any sense.

 

Those are fair points, certainly.

Nonetheless, I do get the strong impression that they are tending in the direction of a rather big "reveal" pertinent to the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship at the end of Sam's citadel plot. 

I can't say how this will come about but I think he will discover something somewhere in the library. Perhaps it will not be as blatant as what I suggested to you earlier (for the very valid reasons cited) but whatever it happens to be, the "find" should enable Sam to piece the jigsaw puzzle together in his mind in time for this to be communicated to the audience before the Season concludes.

I might be entirely wrong regarding this, its just my opinion based upon what seems to me to be the logical ramifications of the Citadel plot as it is developing. If he doesn't uncover something related to Jon's parents which corroborates Bran's visions and that will significantly move along the plot, then I'd be highly surprised.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would simply believe Bran in respect of this on his own, without some manner of evidence found by Sam which basically "seals it".

Edited by Krishtotter

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Fuck it Jon is a king he can legitimize himself. 

***Touches Long Claw to his shoulder like he's knighting himself*** "I Dub thee Jon SnowStark (cause hes still sll humble and not and he's not in the business of stepping on Catelyn Tullys chilrens toes) King in da Norf!"

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4 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Those are fair points, certainly.

Nonetheless, I do get the strong impression that they are tending in the direction of a rather big "reveal" pertinent to the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship at the end of Sam's citadel plot. 

I can't say how this will come about but I think he will discover something somewhere in the library. Perhaps it will not be as blatant as what I suggested earlier but whatever it happens to be, the "find" should enable Sam to piece the jigsaw puzzles together in his mind in time for this to be communicated to the audience before the Season concludes.

I might be entirely wrong regarding this, its just my opinion based upon what seems to me to be the logical ramifications of the Citadel plot as it is developing.

I assumed that Sam's place in the Citadel would be more for him to find something out regarding the White Walkers, as opposed to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

He wants to go into the forbidden section of the library, which, by name, suggests the books in their contain dark stories, as opposed to something revealing Rhaegar Targaryen married Lyanna Stark.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/7/2017 at 11:13 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

Totally agree.

The scene was needed for two reasons... because it's very important for Jon & Dany to know Jon's true identity. They won't find out until after they finally hook up. But it will give Dany a great scene of magnanimously, and gratefully, bending the knee herself. 

I do want the rest of humanity to know as well, for a bazillion reasons like vindicating Ned's lie.

And because Missandei is correct in the long run, bastard as a concept is ridiculous. 

I would say it won't be vindication of Ned's lie, probably, more vindication of his honour and love for his family: foresaking his pride in order to save a child, as he thought he did on the steps of Great Sept of Baelor.
By the way, I totally didn't like Messandei calling him Ned Stark, as if she knew him or something, as far as I remember only few people called him Ned, though, including the Lannisaters twins, but even Tyrion called him Lord Eddard Stark and never Ned. She should have said Eddard Stark - bad writing.

Edited by Gala

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8 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I assumed that Sam's place in the Citadel would be more for him to find something out regarding the White Walkers, as opposed to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

He wants to go into the forbidden section of the library, which, by name, suggests the books in their contain dark stories, as opposed to something revealing Rhaegar Targaryen married Lyanna Stark.

 

Well, he already discovered that Dragonstone was built atop Dragon-glass. 

Perhaps you are spot on here though, maybe it will be another Whitewalker reveal.

But I wouldn't be surprised, that's all I'm saying, if Sam is able to corroborate one of Bran's visions with information he has uncovered - albeit not as blatant as I suggested earlier.

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8 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Well, he already discovered that Dragonstone was built atop Dragon-glass. 

Perhaps you are spot on here though, maybe it will be another Whitewalker reveal.

But I wouldn't be surprised, that's all I'm saying, if Sam is able to corroborate one of Bran's visions with information he has uncovered - albeit not as blatant as I suggested earlier.

Yes, because despite Bran being the all knowing Three-Eyed Raven, the manner in which he is acting, I doubt too many people would take his word for Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna at face value.

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16 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

Has Jon ever gotten burned? I don't recall reading about a burn in the books...

Burned his hand quite severely in the books when those wights attacked LC Mormont.

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