Blueroses

Jon legitimacy foreshadowing ?

201 posts in this topic

23 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Jon's legitimacy came in the previews of next week's episode.  Drogon will recognize blood of the dragon when he sees it and will show respect and it will baffle the people on that island.  

Probably why HBO changed the episodes title to Eastwatch. Blood of the Dragon just gave too much away.

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Count me among the 'Sam will find something in the library' that cements Jon's status.  There are many reasons but the main one is that I 

Spoiler

read it in the spoilers :-)  According to what I read, Rhaegar gets his first marriage annulled, thus he becomes free to marry Ms. Lyanna Stark, thus making baby Jon Targaryen legal for royal status. 

I also find Sam discovering something hidden in remote library archives to be perfectly reasonable.  Most recently, we have read about the finding of a hidden and mis-labelled photograph in the US National Archives  purporting to be Amelia Earhart. (July 2017)

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Not seeing into it much at all.  The show runners haven't been subtle at all with the Jon scenes at Dragonstone.  They've been dropping pieces of irony left and right and the whole bend the knee thing is just another one of those things.  In the end, Dany will find out Jon's legitimacy and will probably end up bending the knee herself resolving that conflict.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

Count me among the 'Sam will find something in the library' that cements Jon's status.  There are many reasons but the main one is that I 

  Hide contents

read it in the spoilers :-)  According to what I read, Rhaegar gets his first marriage annulled, thus he becomes free to marry Ms. Lyanna Stark, thus making baby Jon Targaryen legal for royal status. 

I also find Sam discovering something hidden in remote library archives to be perfectly reasonable.  Most recently, we have read about the finding of a hidden and mis-labelled photograph in the US National Archives  purporting to be Amelia Earhart. (July 2017)

The only thing you have wrong there is the baby's name.

Edited by Illiterati

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1 minute ago, Illiterati said:

The only thing you have wrong there is the baby's name.

Which is utterly ridiculous. I really can't help but wonder what GRMM thinks of it. 

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On 07/08/2017 at 5:33 PM, Blueroses said:

Even if to was not practiced in the last years of their reign, Targaryen were wekk known to practice polygamy...

The "Targaryens" are one thing, Rhaegar Targaryen is another. Would Rhaegar want to be in a polygamous marriage? would Lyanna and Elia accept such a thing? since Lyanna's biggest problem with Robert Baratheon was that he was not able to keep to one bed, i find it highly unlikely that she would want to be in a polygamous marriage.

If Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar, that's because Lyanna married him, which means...he put an end to his marriage to Elia. I don't see this happening any other way if Jon is indeed legitimate.

Since Barristan Selmy was dismissed from the Kingsguard, it changed the way many characters view the law. Robb Stark for example, he wanted to take Jon out of the Night's Watch after he heard that Ser Barristan was no longer a Kingsguard.

Vows are only words, with influence and the right connections, anything can be done in Westeros, anything. George has been hitting at it for five books now.

If Sam finds something at the citadel about Rhaegar and Lyanna, i can believe it, as long as they do it right, it can't be something easy to find or way too obvious, it needs to make sense as to why it was there as well.

Sam is about to give a look at some very old stuff, let's see how this unfolds...

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22 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

Undeniably, as others have correctly noted, the screenwriters "doth protest too much" when it comes to Jon's bastard status. The scene with Davos and Missandei is the most egregious instance of this very deliberate trend.

I predict that in episode 7, Sam will find proof somewhere in a hidden manuscript or genealogical tome that Rhaegar and Lyanna were validly married, albeit in a sort of Targaryen state secret during a war; probably at the same time as Dany succumbs to Jon's "brooding" intentions and commits unwitting aunt-nephew incest with him.

I must say though: invest between Dan and Jon is increasingly seeming a logical inevitability on the basis of recent plot developments but I'm feeling somewhat icky regarding what will be, in the end, a positive depiction of incestual sex. For all that we might have come to like Jaime's character, he and his sister are still antagonists in the series. There incest has always been seen in that context.

Danny-Jon sex would be between two protagonists. Hmm.

interesting I thought the most telling comment was from davos about jon looking at her 'heart' breast before the bastard conversation and jon shrugged it off as we have more important stuff going on. Is this trying to cut off any possibility of him and dany coming together because she is his aunt, when it is revealed. I'm getting a picture of a mutual respect building based on like minds or close relation. The bond he has with arya and sansa. As too proof, jon will not need any when Bran tells him and Bran's word will be enough for him. He will also tell him he is a wrag and can probably control dragons. Considering he is resurrected and has seen the dead walk, that should be small fry for him really.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/7/2017 at 1:28 AM, snow is the man said:

Meera's dad might work but for everyone else you are essentially taking the word of a weird kid who has every reason to lie in their minds. Also when people heard the reason is "He saw it because he is the three eyed raven" they would laugh or at the very least doubt the tale. And as for sam reading the scrolls what proof would they have that there was a kid. They could say that they (rheagar and lyanna) were married but there is no kid. However meera going home might have something to do with that and I didn't think about that nice catch.

Sansa didn't laugh when he said he was sorry about what happened to her on her wedding night.

Littlefinger didn't laugh at Chaos is a Ladder. 

Arya didn't laugh when he said Cersei was on her List. Neither did Sansa. 

On 8/7/2017 at 2:01 AM, Jasemina said:

i agree...i dont think sam would find anything written there otherwise lyanna wouldnt ask ned to keep jon's identity secret cos she knew robert and anything sam can find written robert's or lannisters' spies could have found as well and jon would be dead...remember how he was paranoid over viserys and dany? jon was even closer to him and an easy target..even catelyn could have helped killing him lol

howland reed however was with ned and whatever written he might have it or he might have heard about all the promise thing

Sam didn't go all the way to The Citadel to cure only Joreh's greyscale & find the map to the dragonglass. I hope. 

The Maesters aren't idiots. Ned would have told Maester Luwin about how he found Lyanna since he brought her bones home with him. Ned would have kept Lyanna's secret, but told Luwin everything else. Everything else tells you Jon is legit because the Kingsguard fought to the death. They wouldn't over a bastard. Luwin would be bound to tell the details to the Citadel. Maybe that's what Sam finds. 

Just thinking about it... it's a wonder Cat never figured it out... Ned brings home the bones of his sister and an infant. Cat should have known first, it was Lyanna's, then she'd know Ned's lying, then she'd realize why - to protect her. 

But.... that didn't happen...

No reason for Lannister spies to be looking for what? Ned's bastard? And I don't see a Maester being a Lannister spy since they're bound to buildings not families. 

Howland Reed knows because he was there, and assisted in fighting 3 Kingsguard to the death. He knows as well as Ned, only one reason they'd fight to the death: Guard the King.

On 8/7/2017 at 2:24 AM, Thor Odinson said:

 

 

Hah, that'll be the day. What's more likely is a second Dance of Dragons, as Daenerys has spent YEARS of her life believing that the Iron Throne was hers by right of blood. If the entire basis for her claim to the throne were to fall to pieces right before she's about to claim it, there's no way she'd be in any way gracious about it. That'd be enough to drive her over the edge into full-on Mad Targaryen mode.

Dany is also very aware of the Line of Succession. Jon is her brother's son. That makes him first, because he's Rhaegar's heir.  Besides, they'll be in love by that point, he might feel weird, but she'll remind him he's a Targ, and that's their jam... And he'll tell her to stand, that he wants a partner, and equal, and I'll sob my face off out of sheer joy if/when it happens. As for Mad Targaryen.. Jamie killed him. And he's going to have to kill the next Mad ruler and that's his sister. One überCrazy is enough.

On 8/7/2017 at 6:41 AM, StannisBurnsShireen said:

Rhaegar has his first marriage annulled, and we'll get a flashback to him and Lyanna getting married just before the end of Season 7. This is what the show posted on their blog anyway! But good catch in the foreshadowing!!

That would be sad, if they have to add that because today's humans are squeamish about a world where incest has been an established thing since the pilot, and Aunt/Nephew is miles from sleeping with your twin.

On 8/7/2017 at 7:35 AM, Heavy D said:

He's still a bastard.  Rhaegar was already married to Elia.

And also married Lyanna, just like Rhaegar and his Sister-Wives.

On 8/7/2017 at 8:37 AM, purple-eyes said:

honestly I think you overthought on this. Misandei has no idea what is bastard. So Jon explained to her by giving the definition for bastard. he might be or not be a bastard, but this does not seem to be a foreshadow. He also said he is not a stark. Then what is the GOT translation? he is a Stark? 

The only reason to do anything in storytelling, is to give the audience information. Missande also doesn't care about the concept of bastard. But Jon does. And the audience needs reminding.

And yes, he's Lyanna's son, that makes him also a Stark. (Ice & Fire.) Your mother's family didn't disappear when she got married.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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On 8/7/2017 at 2:06 PM, purple-eyes said:

If we are talking about show, then no, nothing in the show suggested Targ has had more than one wife. When they mentioned Rhaenys or Visenya, they only said they are sisters of Aegon, avoided saying they are his sister-wives. This happened more than once. They likely did this intentionally. They did not want raise this polygamy to confuse people. Otherwise show watchers might say: there is polygamy available? Why can not king Robb marry both Talisa and Roslin Frey to avoid red wedding? And producers might not want to put too many incest relationships in the show either. It is after all not something very positive in regular people's eyes (although GRRM wrote many positive and great relationships such as Jaeharys I and his sister wife, Aemon and Naerys, Jaehareys II and his sister wife, etc. )

Arya mentions the histories about Rhaegar and his Sister-Wives to Tywin. 

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13 hours ago, Nic. said:

Which is utterly ridiculous. I really can't help but wonder what GRMM thinks of it. 

I think that "spoiler" is one of the false plot line plants due to the....

Spoiler

...legal term involved, as if it would be part of Earth's justice system, and why would he need to? How do you get an annulment in Westeros? If you're the Crown Prince, the King would need to sanction that, and I don't see Aerys giving the okay. If that had happened, it wouldn't be secret. Even the word, "annulment" is ridiculously anachronistic. I don't see it. 

I'm a self-admitted D&D&B fangirl. I will be very disappointed if that makes the show. 

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

The "Targaryens" are one thing, Rhaegar Targaryen is another. Would Rhaegar want to be in a polygamous marriage? would Lyanna and Elia accept such a thing? since Lyanna's biggest problem with Robert Baratheon was that he was not able to keep to one bed, i find it highly unlikely that she would want to be in a polygamous marriage.

If Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar, that's because Lyanna married him, which means...he put an end to his marriage to Elia. I don't see this happening any other way if Jon is indeed legitimate.

Since Barristan Selmy was dismissed from the Kingsguard, it changed the way many characters view the law. Robb Stark for example, he wanted to take Jon out of the Night's Watch after he heard that Ser Barristan was no longer a Kingsguard.

Vows are only words, with influence and the right connections, anything can be done in Westeros, anything. George has been hitting at it for five books now.

If Sam finds something at the citadel about Rhaegar and Lyanna, i can believe it, as long as they do it right, it can't be something easy to find or way too obvious, it needs to make sense as to why it was there as well.

Sam is about to give a look at some very old stuff, let's see how this unfolds...

Even Dany grew up expecting to marry her brother. All Targaryens grew up expecting to married to their siblings. And the Patriarch of the Conquering Royal Family, had two Sister-Wives; an historical event every tutored child, and likely pauper, is taught.

So, yes, he would. I honestly don't think he'd think twice about it, especially knowing his prophecy fetish. 

Ellia's feeling are overridden by Rhaegar's love & prophecy fetish. Lyanna is in love. Humans are gonna human.

As for the "leak"- Annulment has to be a bogus plot line plant, and a ridiculous one at that. Seriously. Rhaegar & Elia weren't some twenty-somethings who ran off to Vegas and did the Elvis Drive-Thru chapel. He's the Heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and she's a Princess of Dorne. This wasn't just a marriage of two people, it was a marriage between two kingdoms. They can't just rent a U-Haul. 

Besides, how do you suppose one goes about getting an "annulment" as the Crown Prince of Westeros? Daddy. And I don't see Aerys agreeing to it. And there seems to be no Divorce in this world. You just move on and remarry. Sansa did it. Bolton's didn't seem to see any illegality in it. 

If it happens, I'll be sad.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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8 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Sansa didn't laugh when he said he was sorry about what happened to her on her wedding night.

Littlefinger didn't laugh at Chaos is a Ladder. 

Arya didn't laugh when he said Cersei was on her List. Neither did Sansa. 

Sam didn't go all the way to The Citadel to cure only Joreh's greyscale & find the map to the dragonglass. I hope. 

The Maesters aren't idiots. Ned would have told Maester Luwin about how he found Lyanna since he brought her bones home with him. Ned would have kept Lyanna's secret, but told Luwin everything else. Everything else tells you Jon is legit because the Kingsguard fought to the death. They wouldn't over a bastard. Luwin would be bound to tell the details to the Citadel. Maybe that's what Sam finds. 

Just thinking about it... it's a wonder Cat never figured it out... Ned brings home the bones of his sister and an infant. Cat should have known first, it was Lyanna's, then she'd know Ned's lying, then she'd realize why - to protect her. 

But.... that didn't happen...

No reason for Lannister spies to be looking for what? Ned's bastard? And I don't see a Maester being a Lannister spy since they're bound to buildings not families. 

Howland Reed knows because he was there, and assisted in fighting 3 Kingsguard to the death. He knows as well as Ned, only one reason they'd fight to the death: Guard the King.

Dany is also very aware of the Line of Succession. Jon is her brother's son. That makes him first, because he's Rhaegar's heir.  Besides, they'll be in love by that point, he might feel weird, but she'll remind him he's a Targ, and that's their jam... And he'll tell her to stand, that he wants a partner, and equal, and I'll sob my face off out of sheer joy if/when it happens. As for Mad Targaryen.. Jamie killed him. And he's going to have to kill the next Mad ruler and that's his sister. One überCrazy is enough.

That would be sad, if they have to add that because today's humans are squeamish about a world where incest has been an established thing since the pilot, and Aunt/Nephew is miles from sleeping with your twin.

And also married Lyanna, just like Rhaegar and his Sister-Wives.

The only reason to do anything in storytelling, is to give the audience information. Missande also doesn't care about the concept of bastard. But Jon does. And the audience needs reminding.

And yes, he's Lyanna's son, that makes him also a Stark. (Ice & Fire.) Your mother's family didn't disappear when she got married.

No he is not a Stark. He has Stark blood. He can say Stark people are his family and relatives. But he is not a Stark. Two different things. Just like Robb or Sansa are not Tully. 

he could become a Stark if there is no true Stark around to inherit Winterfell and he might be able to claim it through Lyanna. But this is not the situation we have right now. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

He's the Heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and she's a Princess of Dorne. This wasn't just a marriage of two people, it was a marriage between two kingdoms. They can't just rent a U-Haul. 

It doesn't matter how powerful they are, Robert was the King of Westeros, and Cersei was the daughter of the richest men in the seven kingdoms...and yet, we have Renly and the Tyrells plotting to make Robert put Cersei aside and marry Margaery.

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Besides, how do you suppose one goes about getting an "annulment" as the Crown Prince of Westeros? Daddy. And I don't see Aerys agreeing to it.

Aerys doesn't need to agree with anything. The children of Aegon V certainly didn't wait for their father's opinion on their marriages, and Aegon was forced to accept it, there was no other way around.

 

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

And there seems to be no Divorce in this world.

It does not mean one cannot put a wife aside, anything can be done in Westeros, you just need the right level of influence and know the right persons for the deed, that's all.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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8 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Arya mentions the histories about Rhaegar and his Sister-Wives to Tywin. 

Sorry but you are wrong.(and I know you meant to say "aegon" instead of Rhaegar). 

She did not even mention they are his wives, only sisters. 

In other words, people who did not read book would not think Aegon has sister as wife, not to mention two wives. 

 

 

Arya Stark:
Aegon... and his sisters.

Tywin Lannister:
(sets down his goblet) Hmm?

Arya Stark:
It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragon. It was Raenys and Visenya, too.

Tywin Lannister:
Correct!....Student of history, are you?

Arya Stark:
Rhaenys rode Baraxis, Visenya rode Vaegar.

Tywin Lannister:
I'm sure I knew that, when I was a boy.

Arya Stark:
Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called "Dark Sister".

 

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21 hours ago, Nic. said:

Which is utterly ridiculous. I really can't help but wonder what GRMM thinks of it. 

Wait.  What am I missing?  Why is it ridiculous that the baby's name is...

Spoiler

Jon Targaryen?

 

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

It doesn't matter how powerful they are, Robert was the King of Westeros, and Cersei was the daughter of the richest men in the seven kingdoms...and yet, we have Renly and the Tyrells plotting to make Robert put Cersei aside and marry Margaery.

Aerys doesn't need to agree with anything. The children of Aegon V certainly didn't waited for their father's opinion on their marriages, and Aegon was forced to accept it, there was no other way around.

 

It does not mean one cannot put a wife aside, anything can be done in Westeros, you just need the right level of influence and know the right persons for the deed, that's all.

Well, I can see how badly you want Rhaegar divorce his sickly wife and mother of his two young children secretly and pursue his true love with a 15 year old teenager. Plus makes his firstborn son to Aegon Waters/Sand so that his son with Lyanna can be named as Aegon Targaryen. 

But no, Robert might be able to put aside Cersei as a king (how hard it is we do not know, but it can not be a secret), but Rhaegar was never ever a king. 

Please stop using Jaehaerys II and his sister as justification for R and L. Both of them were single persons before marriage. In fact, this is a perfect example to prove that it is impossible to annul marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. 

Jaehaerys and Sherra said vow, had sex, then nobody can dissolve it. There is no way around.

Rhaegar and Elia said vow, had sex (with two children as proof), then nobody can dissolve it. There is no way around. 

Holy Wedding vow and consummation made Rhaegar and Elia one flesh, one heart and one soul, in front of gods old and new. Gods curse those who go between them, who is Lyanna Stark. 

Edited by purple-eyes

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9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Luwin would be bound to tell the details to the Citadel. Maybe that's what Sam finds. 

that may be what littlefinger finds out, when he goes through maester luwins notes. (luwin kept a note/raven scroll of everything, and they mentioned it in the show, you will notice LF's face takes some interest in that)

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11 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, I can see how badly you want Rhaegar divorce his sickly wife and mother of his two young children secretly and pursue his true love with a 15 year old teenager. Plus makes his firstborn son to Aegon Waters/Sand so that his son with Lyanna can be named as Aegon Targaryen. 

But no, Robert might be able to put aside Cersei as a king (how hard it is we do not know, but it can not be a secret), but Rhaegar was never ever a king. 

Please stop using Jaehaerys II and his sister as justification for R and L. Both of them were single persons before marriage. In fact, this is a perfect example to prove that it is impossible to annul marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. 

Jaehaerys and Sherra said vow, had sex, then nobody can dissolve it. There is no way around.

Rhaegar and Elia said vow, had sex (with two children as proof), then nobody can dissolve it. There is no way around. 

Holy Wedding vow and consummation made Rhaegar and Elia one body and one soul, in front of gods old and new. Gods curse those who go between them, who is Lyanna Stark. 

You're going to be pretty angry with the show when they reveal Jon is the legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Think you'll keep watching?

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5 minutes ago, ImNoSer said:

that may be what littlefinger finds out, when he goes through maester luwins notes. (luwin kept a note/raven scroll of everything, and they mentioned it in the show, you will notice LF's face takes some interest in that)

There is no way Ned told Luwin. He didn't tell his own wife and while I'm sure he trusted Luwin he couldn't trust the entire Citadel.  

If there is information about Jon at the Citadel, I'll bet money it isn't from Ned. 

 

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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

You're going to be pretty angry with the show when they reveal Jon is the legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Think you'll keep watching?

No actually I will be happy to see it if they propose there is a secret annulment of his first marriage and a secret second marriage to Lyanna. 

Why? 

Because this will make Rhaegar an even bigger jerk than he is right now. 

He secretly divorced and abandoned his sickly wife right after she almost died to give him a son. 

He made his two young children bastards by annuling his marriage and even gave his name to his new son. 

And he left his exwife and bastard children under the control of Mad king. Should not he send his ex-wife and bastards back to her home? 

He did not even bother to announce this annulment, otherwise Tywin/Robert/or any of his enemies would not need to hurt any of them. 

He led a Dornish army of his exwife's house to fight for his new wife. 

He chose to become enemy with his brother in law in stead of trying to make peace with them (Lyanna is now future queen of Westeros, is not she?) 

 

Edited by purple-eyes

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