Blueroses

Jon legitimacy foreshadowing ?

201 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Sorry but you are wrong.(and I know you meant to say "aegon" instead of Rhaegar). 

She did not even mention they are his wives, only sisters. 

In other words, people who did not read book would not think Aegon has sister as wife, not to mention two wives. 

 

 

Arya Stark:
Aegon... and his sisters.

Tywin Lannister:
(sets down his goblet) Hmm?

Arya Stark:
It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragon. It was Raenys and Visenya, too.

Tywin Lannister:
Correct!....Student of history, are you?

Arya Stark:
Rhaenys rode Baraxis, Visenya rode Vaegar.

Tywin Lannister:
I'm sure I knew that, when I was a boy.

Arya Stark:
Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called "Dark Sister".

 

Yes, thank you. I went back and watched it on youtube. I swore I heard that term spoken by someone on the show. I remember audibly hearing it, not just reading it. But then I have a very, "overactive imagination", per my elementary school teachers, as if that's a bad thing. ;) 

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On 8/7/2017 at 4:24 AM, Thor Odinson said:

 

 

Hah, that'll be the day. What's more likely is a second Dance of Dragons, as Daenerys has spent YEARS of her life believing that the Iron Throne was hers by right of blood. 

Only six years, since her brother died. Maybe less, if each season doesn't represent a year. I'm just assuming they do.

She talks as if it's been her right since birth, but she didn't actually think of herself that way in Season One, so far as I know. 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/7/2017 at 3:33 PM, Blueroses said:

 

Misandei has no idea what is bastard ? It's way I finf weird, even if it's different in Naath

Isn't it fortunate one of Dany's top advisors has such deep knowledge of Westerosi culture?

Edited by darmody

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How could Jon be son to Rhaegar (silver hair/dark indigo eyes) and Lyanna (brown hair/green eyes) with his hair and eye color? I expect a twist in this story.

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1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

How could Jon be son to Rhaegar (silver hair/dark indigo eyes) and Lyanna (brown hair/green eyes) with his hair and eye color? I expect a twist in this story.

If you are ONLY watching the show then, probably, you won't believe it. If you read the books, then, you'll know that Jon and Arya are very similar (face, hair, eyes), and Arya is practically a copy of Lyanna (who had a Stark look, just like Ned- which is brown hair and blue ice). Catelyn and Tyrion notices that Jon looks more like Stark than any other Ned's sons. Actors' looks just do not fit. Even Sean Bean, whom I like very much.
As for genetics, Valyrian features are recessive, I presume, which means that both of the parents have to carry the gene in order to a child to have even possibility to have those looks - just like red hair gene.

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On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

The "Targaryens" are one thing, Rhaegar Targaryen is another. Would Rhaegar want to be in a polygamous marriage? would Lyanna and Elia accept such a thing? since Lyanna's biggest problem with Robert Baratheon was that he was not able to keep to one bed, i find it highly unlikely that she would want to be in a polygamous marriage.

If Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar, that's because Lyanna married him, which means...he put an end to his marriage to Elia. I don't see this happening any other way if Jon is indeed legitimate.

The reason I can't see R+L=J being true is precisely that everything GRRM tells us of Lyanna says she would not bed Rheagar under any circumstance as long as Ellia was alive.

So just why are we fixated on the impossible when R+E=J is the only parentage that fits Lyanna's character?

On 8/9/2017 at 3:13 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

Sansa didn't laugh when he said he was sorry about what happened to her on her wedding night.

Littlefinger didn't laugh at Chaos is a Ladder. 

Arya didn't laugh when he said Cersei was on her List. Neither did Sansa. 

And that is surely the point of those revelations. They are building the case for Bran's reveal and being believed.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, hallam said:

everything GRRM tells us of Lyanna says she would not bed Rheagar under any circumstance as long as Ellia was alive.

Maester Aemon sees it different: "Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

 

Rhaegar was lucky to have married a woman like Elia, a shame he was not able to see this. But, we are only human at the end of the day, and you can't force someone to do something as hard as love another after spending no more than a year married to that person. I can see him ending his marriage to Elia to go for Lyanna. The biggest hint for it is Lyanna saying that Robert would never keep to one bed; but what of Rhaegar? he was married wasn't he? by the time he went after Lyanna, something tells me he wasn't married anymore.

How that sounds for a 16 year old? the prince she had fallen in love with did something as hard as ending his marriage to his wife, only so he could keep himself faithful to her. This is the only scenario where Lyanna's comments does not make her an hypocrite.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Maester Aemon sees it different: "Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

 

Rhaegar was lucky to have married a woman like Elia, a shame he was not able to see this. But, we are only human at the end of the day, and you can't force someone to do something as hard as love another after spending no more than a year married to that person. I can see him ending his marriage to Elia to go for Lyanna. The biggest hint for it is Lyanna saying that Robert would never keep to one bed; but what of Rhaegar? he was married wasn't he? by the time he went after Lyanna, something tells me he wasn't married anymore.

How that sounds for a 16 year old? the prince she had fallen in love with did something as hard as ending his marriage to his wife, only so he could keep himself faithful to her. This is the only scenario where Lyanna's comments does not make her an hypocrite.

Sure Lyanna would want Rhaegar all for herself. Nobody likes to share husband with another woman, right? 

So which scenario is more likely to happen in your opinion?

1. Lyanna told Rhaegar: Rhaegar, you must divorce your wife, otherwise I will never ever have sex with you!

2. Lyanna told Rhaegar: Rhaegar, I love you, I do not care if I can marry you or not, I only want you. Nothing matters if we can love each other. 

 

 

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 1:13 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

I do want the rest of humanity to know as well, for a bazillion reasons like vindicating Ned's lie.

 

THIS! 

 

But I am very curious as to how Dany will take the news, why should she believe it? She is tolerating Jon and his dragonglass quest, and kinda sort of believes... but so far, she doesn't give a faq.  Does she even know about wags an three eyed ravens? Or does Jorah have to be there to back up the things these wacky northerners are spouting  Or in the end do we need Howland Reed to come forward?    

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On 8/8/2017 at 3:02 AM, Arya Targaryen said:

My guess is Lyanna's tomb (maybe she was buried with a Targ wedding cloak). Or, it won't matter, like, at all.

Are you a book reader? There's been a lot written about Lyanna's tomb and what might be hidden there. 

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On 8/8/2017 at 6:26 AM, Krishtotter said:

 

Those are fair points, certainly.

Nonetheless, I do get the strong impression that they are tending in the direction of a rather big "reveal" pertinent to the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship at the end of Sam's citadel plot. 

I can't say how this will come about but I think he will discover something somewhere in the library. Perhaps it will not be as blatant as what I suggested to you earlier (for the very valid reasons cited) but whatever it happens to be, the "find" should enable Sam to piece the jigsaw puzzle together in his mind in time for this to be communicated to the audience before the Season concludes.

I might be entirely wrong regarding this, its just my opinion based upon what seems to me to be the logical ramifications of the Citadel plot as it is developing. If he doesn't uncover something related to Jon's parents which corroborates Bran's visions and that will significantly move along the plot, then I'd be highly surprised.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would simply believe Bran in respect of this on his own, without some manner of evidence found by Sam which basically "seals it".

You're making a lot of sense. I hadn't really thought about it all that much, but there has to be more of a plot reason for Sam to be in Oldtown other than studying to become a Maester, which will take years and years. 

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On 8/9/2017 at 9:20 AM, ImNoSer said:

that may be what littlefinger finds out, when he goes through maester luwins notes. (luwin kept a note/raven scroll of everything, and they mentioned it in the show, you will notice LF's face takes some interest in that)

What episode is that? 

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15 hours ago, darmody said:

Only six years, since her brother died. Maybe less, if each season doesn't represent a year. I'm just assuming they do.

She talks as if it's been her right since birth, but she didn't actually think of herself that way in Season One, so far as I know. 

I said she's spent years... six years are "years." 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Pecan said:

What episode is that? 

 

now that i think about it, he probably gave that look, because of the letter lyssa aryn sent to catelyn in the first episode (which was orchestrated by LF)

Edited by ImNoSer

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4 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

I said she's spent years... six years are "years." 

And I said only six years. Six years isn't really that long in an adult person's life. 

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12 hours ago, hallam said:

The reason I can't see R+L=J being true is precisely that everything GRRM tells us of Lyanna says she would not bed Rheagar under any circumstance as long as Ellia was alive.

So just why are we fixated on the impossible when R+E=J is the only parentage that fits Lyanna's character?

And that is surely the point of those revelations. They are building the case for Bran's reveal and being believed.

I can't for the life of me find the passage in the books where anyone says that Lyanna said she wouldn't bed Rhaegar if Elia were alive. Can you please point me to it? I honestly don't remember ever reading anything remotely like that, because it sounds like a plot on those murder shows like 48 Hours... like, "hey baby, I'll have sex with you, but you need to kill your wife first." Seriously. Where is it? I can't find it in the wiki either.

I remember her saying that marriage wouldn't suddenly make Robert not a slut...or something to that effect.

And yes, it IS the point, and that was MY point when I posted it. Bran tells people things he knows will make them believe him. Things he would have no way of knowing unless he can do what he claims he can. See everything. 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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On 10/08/2017 at 6:59 AM, Gala said:

Catherine of Aragon was a devoted Catholic and pure royal blood, of course, she could not stomach her child to be a bastard, it is indeed understandable. I always thought that it was irrelevant in matter of succession, since both Mary and Elizabeth did inherit the throne, their fathers name and were accepted by the people. I've never heard them to be called bastards, although, I must admit I am not an expert, just read few history books and articles.

 

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Succession_Act

 

The Second Succession Act was a piece of legislation passed by the Parliament of England in June 1536, during the reign of Henry VIII.

The Second Succession Act was formally titled An Act concerning the Succession of the Crown, and was also known as the Succession to the Crown: Marriage Act 1536.[1] The Act followed the conviction and execution of Anne Boleyn, and removed both her daughter, Elizabeth, and Mary, Henry's daughter by his first wife, from the line of succession. It superseded the First Succession Act, which had declared Mary to be illegitimate and Elizabeth to be his true legitimate heir. This new act declared that Elizabeth was also a bastard. As a result, Henry was left without any legitimate child to inherit the throne after his death, which lasted until his son, Edward, was born in October 1537.

Because Henry had no legitimate offspring at the time of the passage of the Act, the Act gave Henry "full and plenary power and authority" to choose who would succeed him if he died without an heir of his body, by naming his successor in letters patent or in his last Will.[2]

 

Edited by Krishtotter

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6 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Succession_Act

 

The Second Succession Act was a piece of legislation passed by the Parliament of England in June 1536, during the reign of Henry VIII.

The Second Succession Act was formally titled An Act concerning the Succession of the Crown, and was also known as the Succession to the Crown: Marriage Act 1536.[1] The Act followed the conviction and execution of Anne Boleyn, and removed both her daughter, Elizabeth, and Mary, Henry's daughter by his first wife, from the line of succession. It superseded the First Succession Act, which had declared Mary to be illegitimate and Elizabeth to be his true legitimate heir. This new act declared that Elizabeth was also a bastard. As a result, Henry was left without any legitimate child to inherit the throne after his death, which lasted until his son, Edward, was born in October 1537.

Because Henry had no legitimate offspring at the time of the passage of the Act, the Act gave Henry "full and plenary power and authority" to choose who would succeed him if he died without an heir of his body, by naming his successor in letters patent or in his last Will.[2]

 

Thank you for that! 
I didn't know that. I only know general stuff since I have no connection with Great Britain or its history, I am from Eastern Europe. Now I will know your (or not your) history better. 

 

Edited by Gala

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10 minutes ago, Gala said:

Thank you for that! 
I didn't know that. I only know general stuff since I have no connection with Great Britain or its history, I am from Eastern Europe. Now I will know your (or not your) history better. 

 

No worries Gala but yes, I am actually British! ;)

Formerly Princess Mary and Princes Elisabeth both became "Lady Mary" and "Lady Elisabeth" after their parents' marriages were annulled and they were declared bastards (not unlike Jon Snow still being referred to as "Lord" since his father was still a nobleman).

Ultimately they did both inherit the throne in turn but only due to the fact that when King Henry VIII began to fall ill, he drafted his will declaring that Edward would be his heir and Lady Mary, despite being a bastard, was to follow him if the young Prince were to die childless. Elizabeth was also included, again despite being a bastard, and she was to take the throne if Mary were to die without an heir. This is what happened.

Had Henry VIII not issued this decree in his will then Mary and Elizabeth's illegitimacy would have taken them out of the line of succession but Henry VIII obviously wanted to ensure that his lineage would continue even if through bastards.

Edited by Krishtotter

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Annulment, "pure" polygamy, polygamy explained by marriages performed under different faiths... there have been a lot of theories over the years but I think it does not really matter here because if the show wants/needs Jon to be trueborn, it will find a way, whatever the viewers like it or not specially if it's important for the story endgame, that D&D said they will not change...

Edited by Blueroses

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